1st post, 1st Cider. Problems!

Hi all,

This is my first post, following my first cider attempt.

I have access to lots and lots of apples, so I am trying to make natural cider as much as possible. I built my own apple mill and press to start wit.

My first batch was just Beauty of Bath apples. Milled and pressed enough to get 16 litres. Placed this, (about two and 1/2 gallons) into a five gallon fermentation bucket. Added camden tablets and pectolase, then two days later pitched yeast directly into the FV. One month later, after no airlock activity I racked off into a secondary. OG was 1.044, SG at racking was 1.008.

When I was racking off there was a lit film/scum on top of the cider. It does not smell off, but has a very bitter taste. Any ideas or suggestions.

I currently have 100 litres, (20 gallons) in fermentation buckets of Worcester apples. About to pitch yeast into two of these FV's so any ideas or suggestions before I start would be appreciated.

I know this is a long first post so sorry, but I have loads more questions.

Thanks in advance.

The scum was probably just yeast. The basic rule is: If it tastes okay, it's okay.

I would expect your cider to continue fermenting down to 0.995 or so.

Will it continue to ferment in the secondary? I added nothing to it at all. Just racked off from the primary, leaving all the lees, gunk and scum behind.

Will the bitter taste round out a little to a nice dry cider, or should I consider adding something such as honey or sugar? Would prefer to leave it as natural as possible. It may be that this variety of apple is not suited to cider, hopefully the Worcesters will be better.

Also, why was there no airlock activity? Is a month normal on primary?

(See I told you there were lots of questions)

Thanks again in advance.

Whether or not it continues to ferment in the secondary depends on how long it was in the primary. If a month in primary, you wont see much action in the secondary

The bitter taste is probably from the campden. It will take several months to wear off if you used the recommended dose, but it will wear off eventually. Adding honey before the ferment helps with the bitterness, sugar doesnt help much. I wouldnt advise adding anything after the ferment tho. It will take some patience, but the bitterness will dissipate.

If you press your own apples, dont use apples that have been on the ground, wash everything and keep your press sanitized, you can skip the campden. Your cider will have much more apple taste and you can drink it earlier.

If you are planning on storing the cider for over 6 months, you can add half the recommended dose of campden after the ferment has completed. That will keep it from getting vinegary. Drinking it within 6 months will also keep it from getting vinegary

Thanks for the reply.

We try to only use fresh picked apples from the tree, not windfalls if we can help it. We let them sit for about a week or two in the collection bins before I mill and press them.

I didn't want to add anything to he juice, trying to make single variety cider. If this variety doesn't work out its no big loss, I have access to lots of apples and different varieties. When I find some that I really like i intend to plant anorchard with these varieties purely for the cider.

I will leave he bitter one in secondary for a couple of moths then.

What is the normal time for primary? Why am I not seeing any airlock activity on any of the FV's?

I let my ciders sit in the primary anywhere from 1 to 5 weeks, depending on the temperatures. This time of year is warm and several carboys were done after 6 days which is a record for me. By the end of the winter, they will take 4-5 weeks. If you have low temps, it can go even longer. So the time is as long as it takes to get to the level of sugar you want, then get it off the primary.

Are you saying you didnt see any activity in the primary, or just not in the past month? If you went from 1.044 to 1.008 then you had to have seen some activity unless you have a leak somewhere. 1.008 is a little high for the yeast to tucker out on its own. It might be starved for nitrogen. But 1.008 is a nice level of residual sweetness if not for the k-meta. What kind of yeast are you using and what were the temps?

Next time skip the k-meta and the pectin. Unpasteurized juice will clear fine by itself.

Have you had a look at the UK cider page? It has some great info, including a page on apple types, none of which are available here, but you might recognize some of them

http://www.cider.org.uk/part3.htm

I thought the airlock thing was strange. I know my first batch fermented, because I could see a change in the SG, but I witnessed no airlock activity at all.

This is the same with the stuff inthe FV's now. I wondered was it too cold? I am storing everything in the garage. I can see that the cider has cleared well, with all the stuff dropping to the bottom, and I can see a ring forming around the top of the cider, but still no airlock activity. I have checked for leaks and can find none.

With the first batch I had a large vacant space at the top of the FV and thought this might also be a problem.

Thanks for the link to the UK cider page, lots of great info. I will just keep plodding along until I get something right.

Thanks for your help.

You have water in your airlock, right? Yeasts produce CO2 when they convert sugar to alcohol. The CO2 has to go somewhere. What sort of yeast are you using?

I fill my primaries pretty full so there is just enough headspace in case a bit of krausen builds up, but no more. There are a few closeup pics on the last page of the sticky. The two on the right havent been racked.

I realize that you are getting cooler temps than us, but right now I'd be worried more about too warm than too cold. What are the temp ranges in the garage?

Yes, I have a little bi of water in my airlock. Not too much that it will bubble out, but enough to fill to the required level.

I am using Youngs Cider Yeast. This is all it says on the packet, produced by a company who make and supply brewing essentials in the UK. This is my first Cider year, so picked this as its a specific Cider yeast.

The garage is about 15 degrees C, so definately not too warm.

I just went and had a look at my FV's and I think I may have found a problem.

It looks like the bottom of my airlock inside the FV was actually under the top level of the Cider, which would obviously stop any airlock activity. Would this also cause an adverse build up of CO2 possibly damaging the Cider?

I have moved the airlocks up a little to take them out of the cider to see if this helps.

Putting the bottom of the airlock below the cider will definitely keep you from seeing any activity. It wont cause a problem tho. The CO2 pressure will build up and it will either leak out somewhere or blow your airlock out of the jug - and since it didnt do that, it must have leaked.

15C is a nice temp for ciders. The ferment will be a little slow getting started, but generally a slow ferment is better for flavor. You might want to check the back of your yeast packet to see what is the recommended temp range, but you should be OK.

I never heard of Youngs cider yeast before. I goggled it and it looks like it isnt sold in the states, only in the UK. If it naturally stops at 1.008, I need to get some of that stuff.

Checked the packet and it shows no temperature range. Very basic instructions. Does not even suggest re-hydrating the yeast.

I got the yeast from a well known auction site and I think it was about $1.70 per 5g packet, which is enough for 5 gallons.

If you want some, and delivery is an issue I will be in the states in November and would be happy to have some mailed to you when I am there.

Thanks - I searched for the Youngs cider yeast online and found a bunch of places that carry it, but none that ships to the US. It looks like there are a lot of yeasts that are only available in the UK. Interesting.

Where are you going to be in the States? If DC area, I could probably meet you and bring a few liters.

I've emailed a few of the UK brew sites to see if they can ship to me. If not, I'll take you up on your offer, in which case I'll order some yeasts and have them shipped to your address. I'll let you know once I hear back what the UK brew stores have to say.

I will be in Florida. We visit a couple of times a year. Not quite the DC area I am afraid. But there would be no problem at all bringing some over for you. Just let me know.

There is no where near the range of supplies over hear that you get in the States. I am hoping to start into my beer brew very soon, once I have all the cider settled.

I think I will have to look a couple of places up when I visit in November to see what I can bring home.

Thanks - If I dont hear back from any of the UK distributors, I'll take you up on that.

The fermentis ale yeasts are my current favorites for cider. I highly recommend the S04. US05 is also very good if you bump the sg up to 1.060 or 1.065 with some sugar, but not as good with no sugar or with honey. If you do any more batches this year, I'd be curious as to how you think the Young's compares against these

I found a place on UK ebay that ships to the States, so I'm good.

They had a lot of yeast that we cant get in the States, so in addition to the Youngs cider I got the Youngs ale and lager yeasts (I've found that of the yeasts I've tried, ale and lager yeasts work better than cider). I also got ale and lager yeasts from Ritchie, Gervin, Brupaks and Morgans. Later this fall, I'll do a bunch of small batches to see how these stack up against the Fermentis S04, which is my current favorite.

Good luck with your ciders. Are you seeing airlock activity now?

I was just logging on to see about this.

Glad you got sorted out with the Yeast. If the postage is expensive, feel free to let me know in the future and I will be happy to bring any over that you have ordered and mail within the states which will, I am sure, be cheaper. I visit twice a year to Florida, so can sort something out.

I still have no airlock activity. I check every day, and sit watching intently to see if there are any bubbles, but none yet. If I don't see any soon, I am going to open a batch and take an SG reading to be sure that something is happening. What about yeast nutrient?

I will be pressing another bin of apples this week. About 16 bushels worth. These are Lord Lambourne variety, so it will be interesting to see what these are like.

Even withour airlock activity, I am enjoying making the Cider. Just hope I get some that I can drink.

Thanks - postage was 5 pounds on a 22 pound order (I got 16 packets of yeast), which didnt seem too bad for mailing across the ocean

Where in Florida are you headed? I have a good friend who lives on Manasota key - about an hour south of Tampa. His sister used to live on an apple orchard, which is how I got started with the cider. I usually go down there a couple times a year between January and April to do some fishing and cider drinking.

How long has it been since you pitched the yeast? could it have fermented out before you fixed the airlock? What are you using for your primary fermenters?

16 bushels should give you 30-45 gallons of juice, depending on how efficient your press is. I'd recommend that for at least a few of your batches, dont use campden and try S04, US05 and Nottingham. These will definitely give you airlock activity.

Heading to Disney. We love it there.

We have a small orchard at the house, and are surrounded by orchards all over the County. We have friends who own a lot of these orchards, so we have many many apples.

I use plastic fermentation buckets for my primaries and secondaries.

With the first batch I pitched directly onto the cider, for the second batch I tried to re-hydrate the yeast first. Didn't notice any difference.

I think I got about 25 UK gallons, which is about 30 US gallons. Its not the most efficient press being home made, but I am very happy with it, its even better since I built it myself.

I'll bet its great living in the orchards this time of year! Cville is apple country, but I'm in the City - about 15-30 min from any serious orchards. I've been thinking about planting some trees on my little plot, but driving to the press is just too easy.

2gal/bushel is great for a homemade press. The press we used when my friend lived on the orchard could barely do 1gal/bu, and I'm fairly sure it was a store bought press. The press was OK but the masher really sucked. It would take several of us half a day to get a couple carboys of juice. Some other friends have a newer press that they built from a kit - it will do almost 3gal/bu and can press 50gal in a few hours.

Somehow the CO2 must be finding an easier way out of your buckets than the airlock. You might want to take one of your fermentation buckets and fill it up with water, just like it was apple juice, put the lid and airlock on, and then put just a tiny bit of pressure on the side to see if the airlock burps. I use the better bottle carboys for primaries and fill them close to the top, and they will burp if you just tap on them a little. I'd recommend the BB's even though they are more expensive than buckets. You might want to try just one of those and see how it compares. I've been using glass carboys for secondaries, but slowly am switching to BB's for secondaries also, as they are easier to clean and move around.

Its important that the yeast have a nice smooth re-hydration - this is where they are most likely to have problems. I pitch mine about a third of a packet at a time, so that they spread out evenly over the surface. Then when they sink I pitch more. You have more surface area, so you can pitch more at a time, but you dont want any little piles of yeast on top of the cider. You can lighly tap the buckets on the side to encourage the yeast to spread out to make a nice even film while they are rehydrating.

I dont add nutrients - I've never needed them and I'm fairly certain that they make it harder to stop the fermentation by racking or cold cold crashing before the sugar ferments out.

So is the SG dropping on your latest batch? Even if you dont see bubbles, you should see that the water in fermentation lock is higher on one side - indicating that there is some pressure in your buckets, even if it is escaping some other way. You might want to consider cold crashing and stopping the fermentation when you like the sugar balance. When you do the Lord Lambournes, I'd recommend skipping the campden and get some S04, Notty or US05 - those are very reliable.

Just finished pressing my apples last night.

Lord Lambourne, managed to get 125 litres from the 16 bushells this time, so ven better than last.

I am stuck with the Youngs Cider yeast this time, I ordered enought to cover the entire season, so have it sitting and dont want to waste it. We also dont have access to as many different varieties here as you seem to have. I will be shopping around when I am in Florida.

I will try some of these FV's without camden tablets to see how they go.

Also, its my birthday today, and the good lady wife bought me my first all grain beer kit, so looking forward to starting that in the coming weeks once the cider is settled.

Wow, this is a great thread. I could only dream of having that much access to great apples.
If you don't see any air lock activity you don't have a good seal and the C02 is escaping somewhere.
Putting some food grade silicon on the bucket seals might help. (Before sanitizing)
You might want to put a brick, or a heavy book on top of the bucket lid to press it down to keep a seal.
I'm not a big cider maker, I'm stuck with using commercial juice but I love drinking it.
I have pretty much given up on the wine yeast and so far I have found I really like WLP300 fermented at 67F, and US-05 fermented at 62F. I will try US-04 next.
Best of luck, and can you post a few pics of your DYI press. I can only dream...

Happy birthday Craig!

Good luck with the Lord Lambournes. Nice yield you got. If you took some pics, it would be great if you could post a few.

Maybe you can find a US brewing supply place that will ship to the UK. When I was looking for the Youngs, it seemed like this place had a good selection, but didnt ship to the US

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Beer_Yeast.html

I noticed when I was looking for the Youngs, than none of the UK brew shops seem to carry what we would consider a regular carboy over here. Everything is pails. Strange.

Yeah, everything is fermentation buckets.

I have been looking at buying a couple of barrels, oak and chestnut for next seasons.

I will take a few photos of the press and post them over the next few days when I am giving it a final deep clean before storage for the winter.

Having access to all these apples is great, it just keeps me busy.

I will be shopping when I am Florida and hope to find cheaper hops, and yeast for the beer production. These are also very expensive over here.

I've made 7 one gallon batches of hard cider with variations and five different yeasts.

The first four I've tasted all taste like sh*t. After two weeks in bottles, the first four batches are Maximum skunky and a really bad aftertaste in my mouth for hours. I've been a fanatic for cleanliness and tried following several recipes on internet including a lot of study of different suggestions and sites. The first four were different variations.

Any suggestions?

My local homebrew store said I just need to put the bottles down for six months at least, but they only know about beer, so I'm stumped. I went on the internet and looked up some recipes for cider vinegar and they look suspiciously similar to making hard cider -- how do I get hard cider and not vinegar???

AJ

AJ, what is your recipe?

My guess would be potassium sorbate or some other preservative in the juice.

I didn't want to start a new thread because this topic seemed fitting, but I am branching off to my own question, rather than addressing the OP.
I think we may have destroyed not one, but two batches of cider last night. . . . .
The first batch was ready for bottling, and was supposed to get a little bit of apple cider concentrate (for fizz). The SO accidentally chucked 1/2 cup of sugar into it.
Can we add more yeast to try to eat that up, or do we just have really really sweet still cider now? I didn't want to bottle it because I have an aversion to exploding glass, but we put it back in the carboy and there is no activity.
The second batch was ready to be racked for the first time, but when we took measurements, our alcohol was at 0, as was the potential alcohol. We were baffled, this stuff had been bubbling away for weeks! This was the batch we thought we'd add some additional sugar to and allow it to continue fermenting to see if we could actually get some alcohol into it. It did indeed get racked, and yes, it ended up getting more sugar too, but after a few initial flurries of bubbles, we've got no activity. Again, can we add some more yeast to this, or are we screwed?
We started with two gallons (each batch) and are now down to a gallon (each batch), so I'm thinking that I'm just going to end up making some sort of bizarre, super concentrated, alcoholic syrup if we keep trying to ferment it.
Us noobs must be so exhausting for you guys. . . . any advice would be much appreciated though!

roguedesigns said:

I didn't want to start a new thread because this topic seemed fitting, but I am branching off to my own question, rather than addressing the OP.
I think we may have destroyed not one, but two batches of cider last night. . . . .
The first batch was ready for bottling, and was supposed to get a little bit of apple cider concentrate (for fizz). The SO accidentally chucked 1/2 cup of sugar into it.
Can we add more yeast to try to eat that up, or do we just have really really sweet still cider now? I didn't want to bottle it because I have an aversion to exploding glass, but we put it back in the carboy and there is no activity.
The second batch was ready to be racked for the first time, but when we took measurements, our alcohol was at 0, as was the potential alcohol. We were baffled, this stuff had been bubbling away for weeks! This was the batch we thought we'd add some additional sugar to and allow it to continue fermenting to see if we could actually get some alcohol into it. It did indeed get racked, and yes, it ended up getting more sugar too, but after a few initial flurries of bubbles, we've got no activity. Again, can we add some more yeast to this, or are we screwed?
We started with two gallons (each batch) and are now down to a gallon (each batch), so I'm thinking that I'm just going to end up making some sort of bizarre, super concentrated, alcoholic syrup if we keep trying to ferment it.
Us noobs must be so exhausting for you guys. . . . any advice would be much appreciated though!

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three questions before answering anything.

1. What was included in the original recipes, juice, water, sugar, other fermentables
2. what yeast did you use for both of them
3. when you say you measured actual alcohol and potential alcohol do you mean you took an original gravity reading and then another reading and it hadnt changed even though there was a lot of activity?

1. Juice, red star cotes des blancs yeast and some additional apple juice concentrate in the 2nd batch
3. We didn't have a hydrometer yetwhen we started, so no initial measurements,both readings came from the hydrometer (2 different floats came with it - sp. grav. ,proof, potential alcohol and volume)

Well that was vague of me. Make that 2 gallons juice, 2-3 g yeast, and 3/4 c concentrate in the second batch (none in the first)
With the second batch at first rack the potential alcohol was 0 as was the proof.

Potential alcohol is the "potential" alcohol if all the sugars fermented. If yours reads zero, that means that all the sugars have been fermented, not that there isn't any alcohol.

So, even though it said it was 0 proof, it may still have alcohol in it?
Well, in any case, now both batches have a bunch of sugar sitting in them, with no activity at all.
Is there any saving them at this point?

roguedesigns said:

So, even though it said it was 0 proof, it may still have alcohol in it?
Well, in any case, now both batches have a bunch of sugar sitting in them, with no activity at all.
Is there any saving them at this point?

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The way a hydrometer works is you take a reading before it ferments to see the potential alcohol, you then take a reading when it is done fermenting to see how much sugar has been turned into alcohol.

Between those two readings you will know the abv.

for instance, i have a mead i just made that started with a original gravity of 1.115 and final gravity of 1.020, using a hydrometer calc that tells me i have around 12.5% abv in my mead.



The yeast you used is good for 12 to 14% abv, if the hydrometer is reading 0 that means it is completely dry (or was before you mixed in sugar). if you arent seeing any activity after adding sugar you might have reached the limit of your yeast (but with just juice and concentrate i dont think so)

What temperature are you fermenting at? That yeast wont ferment well below 64 degrees

Did you rack off of the yeast cake before adding the sugar?

It's in our bedroom (what can I say, we LOVE our cider ), so it's definitely not below 64, though I'm sure the temperature does fluctuate a bit.
We know now about the need for initial measurements, and we're ready for round three, but unfortunately, we didn't get them for rounds one and two.
We did indeed rack off the yeast.

My suggestion would be to pitch a new "cleanup" yeast like ec-1118 in them and let them go to dry. then rack to bottling bucket with the proper amount of sugar to carbonate if that is what you are looking to do

I love my cider too but i think my girlfriend would murder me in my sleep if i fermented in the bedroom, ive already taken over the entire storage area and downstairs closet!

Thank you thank you for the advice. We definitely appreciate being able to ask questions of such a well versed bunch of folks.

Youngs----eBay has loads of youngs supplies.they are cheap and they ship to the US.

I am intrigued,this seems like a lot of cider!any chance of some pics of your set up?

I can certainly take some, though it's not very impressive. We just got a second 5 gallon carboy so we're ready to get some bigger batches going.
Alas, not much happened after we added the clean up yeast. We're just going to bottle and hope for the best. Wish us luck!

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry, you must have ha a leak somewhere with no airlock activity.

I definitely want to know if any particular apple variety makes a better cider. I have heard that a blend usually makes a better cider, perhaps a sweet or tart apple mixed with a neutral one?

icanbenchurcat said:

Haven't read the whole thread, sorry, you must have ha a leak somewhere with no airlock activity.

I definitely want to know I any particular apple variety makes a better cider. I have heard that a blend usually makes a better cider, perhaps a sweet or tart apple mixed with a neutral one?

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You want a few tart apples, a few sweet apples and a bunch of crab apples for tannin. At least that is the general consensus. Me personally, I can't tell much difference between the varietals used once the sugars are all fermented out. That said, they make acid and tannin extract to help balanced out your finished product. My suggestion is to use fresh pressed cider, ferment it out and correct its profile with tannin and acid additives.