brewing with steam help me refine the idea please

ok so i wanna do and automated brewery setup up for 20 gallon batches my initial idea was to mount a hot water heater element into an air compressor tank to make some steam right off the bat i was thinking injecting the steam straight into the mash and bk through a manifold but im wondering now if this is a good idea for the bk i know alot of people have done this for there mash but will it work just as well for the bk or should i try and do a jacketed system im planing on building this over the summer but need to keep cost relatively cheap ( respectively of course )

so now all i need is your thoughts should i go ahead and rig sum manifolds under some false bottoms

Wow! That was one long sentance.

From what I understand you should be able to do a direct steam injection through a manifold with no problems.

-check this out-

I would love to do this someday but I will need to buy a new cooler since the one I have is set permanantly with CPVC piping. I don't think it can handle the steam temps.

There are great threads on this issue on this forum. Search google advanced restricted to the homebrewtalk domain.
I also have a steam generator from a converted corny keg. My main issue is getting too much steam at once, and getting hot spots - I throttle it back, for good results.
However, it would not be enough for the bk.
What thoughts have you had on using the compressor tank re size/pressure to be able to cope with sustained release over the boil time? Why would steam be more appropriate for your bk than direct firing? (I'm thinking it is not energy efficient to convert electricity to steam as opposed to directly heating with elements in the bk - my local micro does it with low heat density elements. A Jacket would be more indirect again, as opposed to direct injection.)

well i live in a apartment with a patio which is why i wanted to try and go electric something tells me 3 gas burners is gonna get me in trouble ok so you don't think that injected steam will work for a boil kettle i am planning on high pressure very hot steam the tank will be highly insulated so i don't think efficiency will be to much of a problem i was just wondering if it would actually work more or less can i boil wort with steam

Oh... you're trying to do your boil with steam, not step-mash. Well I suppose it WOULD work. I don't know how long it would take to reach temperature but something tells me you are going to need a LOT of steam to heat that much liquid to a boil. How big are your boils? 10 gallons? And what is the capacity of your steam generator? There are calculators online that will tell you how much capacity you will need. I suspect it will be far more than you think, and it will probably not be as simple to do as one would hope.

EDIT: I see you wanted to do 20 gallon batches. GOOD LUCK! I don't think you will be able to ever generate enough steam to get that much liquid to a boil. I would hold off on 20 gallon batches until you can get a propane jet burner.

well i was thinking a like 15-20 gallon air compressor tank with 1000 + psi so i think that's around 700 degrees now looking at the fact that the steam is directly injected this makes heating this way extremely efficient and i see no reason why i would not be able to bring 20 gallons to a boil by injecting 700 degree steam into it yes this is not the best method for using steam but it is the cheaper all the micro brewery's i have been to use jacketed steam systems which is much better but very expensive to setup i really just wanted to see if anyone out there had done this yet and if there were any problems i should no about

ah okay. So you have at least thought the technical aspects over, thats good.

Will you be able to do it? Yes... How will it work? I don't know. I don't think 700dF steam directly injected into your wort is probably a good idea, I imagine you will be scortching the hell out of it, but I am not an expert. Anybody else have any ideas?

And contagent93, for the love of God, please use some punctuation! It makes reading posts so much easier.

sorry back in the day comp geek forum habit we never used punctuation on the internet lol

Wow. You are braver than I am.
It should work.
"SHOULD" is a problematic word when applied to Steam at 1000 PSI in a unit designed to work at ambient temperatures for a different purpose.
There is the law of unintended consequences to boot.
My Steam masher is 15PSI, and it makes me nervous now and then.
I don't know you, but I care enough to say: " Are you friggin out of your mind? Don't do it, man."
Check out electric options -again some great threads on diff boards.
You sure you can't use one burner where you are?

Yorg said:

Wow. You are braver than I am.
It should work.
"SHOULD" is a problematic word when applied to Steam at 1000 PSI in a unit designed to work at ambient temperatures for a different purpose.
There is the law of unintended consequences to boot.
My Steam masher is 15PSI, and it makes me nervous now and then.
I don't know you, but I care enough to say: " Are you friggin out of your mind? Don't do it, man."
Check out electric options -again some great threads on diff boards.
You sure you can't use one burner where you are?

Click to expand...

lol well i am brave and the reason i started the thread was for this very reason i know it should work on paper but i was puting it out there for people who have actually used steam systems before how efficient is a propane burner gonna be when doing a 20 gallon batch propane is very expensive here about 50 bucs a tank

I've never seen an air compressor tank rated at 1000psi. My 20 gallon air compressor goes to 125psi.

1,000 PSI, scary

Filled with 700F steam? Scarier.

700F going into your wort, that will not be good for the sugars in your wort.

Geezus, warn the neighbors and next of kin.

Propane here is $50 for the initial tank but only $20 for refills. Are you sure yours isn't the same.

Living to brew batch number two...priceless.

joety said:

Living to brew batch number two...priceless.

Click to expand...

Ha....after having an accident with steam burning and disfiguring you....I'm not sure you'd WANT to live.

I'm sure your apartment manager will have just as big a problem with a pressurized (uncertified) boiler on the premises as they would a few turkey fryers. Maybe you could go with a smaller, more discreet system while you're in the apartment, then eventually rent a house and brew on a bigger scale?

I know I used to grill all the time right in front of the management office and they never said a thing. Better to ask forgiveness than permission!

I am an oilheat technician and work on a lot of different-sized boilers. Please take it from me, RUN from high-pressure steam. The entire heating field works off of low-pressure steam(1 to 3 PSI). The Empire State Building at one time (maybe still?) heated the entire building with 3 PSI steam. In the early days of steam heating, boilers were run at 50 or 60 PSI, and there are many, many stories of explosions resulting in destruction of property and deaths. Please find a low-pressure solution to your problem.

ok ok i get the point lol the only reason i was considering the high pressure was because of my engineer friends but i figured it wasn't a good idea thats why i posted on here nothings been built or bought so dont worry guys im in no danger just brainstorming

im thinking ill probly go with a typical system what kind of burner is going to give me the best results for 20 gallon batches is one of the bayou burners and stand setups going to take a forever to boil and use tons of gas im looking for a good bend of speed and efficiency

Ever thought about electric? Two 5500W ULWD elements would heat up 20 gals. Pretty quick in the BK, less than 20 minutes to boil, and save A LOT of gas.

i have no way to wire up 220/240 in my aprtment

How/where are you going to boil 20 gallons in your apartment?

i have a large patio its proly round 10x30 or so so i have ample room there for brewing and it never really goes below 20 here in the winter so i can brew out there year round

would this be a good burner for 20 gallon batches

Did you read this thread? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-steam-mash-system-yuri-27070/

He is only mashing with steam...but check out his setup.

-Will

That burner will work, so would a Banjo Burner, they are in the realm of 210,000 BTUs. I have seen many with the jetted burners needing to remove jets and plug the holes, but I am not recalling why. Maybe someone can chime in with that reasoning?

If you can't wire your porch for 220V, how are you going to power the hot water heater element to get your 700F, 1000psi steam?

How the hell are you going to mount a water heater element in an air compressor tank so that its integrity and pressure holding capability isn't compromised. If your friends are engineers and they've told you this is doable, what do they build and where (please don't say bridges) so I can avoid them in the future.