C20+C60 = C40? LHBS Bull****?

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The guy at the local snooty organic brew store didn't have enough crystal 40 for the recipe I was brewing and told me to pick up some of the crystal 20 and 60, which they had plenty of and use half and half for the weight that I needed of crystal 40. this seems like it could be true, but I truly don't know.
is this a big load of ****?
 
Ha! Then why even carry anything between 10 and 120, it can just all be blended on site to the desired lovibond.

Honestly though, it's the next best thing. If I had a recipe that just called for crystal 40, I'd do something like split it with 20 and 60.
 
That's a good question, I don't really know. What are we talking here, like 1/2 lb of each? In small quantities i'm sure it'd be pretty close in a pinch.
 
i'm sure it'll work fine, but whenever possible, get the specified crystal (that's what jamil always says on his style podcasts).
 
This is a great question-

I pulled up the Beer Recipator and did a quick and dirty check. I wasn't sure that the 60L + 20L would average out. I thought the addition of 60L would darken the beer considerably, but here's what the Recipator said:

8 lbs 2-row + 2 lbs of 40L = 10 SRM

8 lbs 2-row + 1 lb of 20L and 1 lb of 60L = 10 SRM

It sounds like your guy might be right. I'm guessing the flavor of the crystal malts would "average" out, too?
 
For color, yeah, 20 + 60 (in equal amounts) works fine.... but, the flavors imparted are different. In small equal amounts it would probably be hard to tell a difference though... at least IMO.
 
That's my feeling- in small amounts, it won't be all that noticeable. The color would be about the same, but the flavors are different. The lighter crystal malts are sweeter and the darker crystal malts get raisiny as they get darker.

Crystal 60L isn't too much different than the 40L, though. It's not as sweet, and it's "richer" tasting, but I don't think you'll notice the difference in that small of an amount.

It's not equal, though. I mean, really if it WAS the same, why would they make so many different ones? They could just make crystal 10L and crystal 120L, and you could "average" them out. The color would be right, but the flavor would most certainly be very different!
 
While a combination might be able to even out to the same color the flavors of each crystal malt are different. Thus 2 pounds of C40 in the recipe will taste different that 1 pound of C20 and 1 pound of C60 in the recipe. Now how much different? I really don't know. I would guess that with the lower Lovibond crystal malts that the different would be less pronounced that if you used the stronger, darker crystal malts.
 
There's more to beer than color.;)

There are definite flavor differences between C-20, C-40, C-60.

Depending on the % of the grist, it may alter the flavor of the beer considerably.

Read about the characteristics here

Think of it like making a sandwich. Combining lightly toasted bread and dark toasted bread do not yield the same flavor as a sandwich with medium toasted bread.:mug:
 
situation is that I did a brew that called for a half pound of C40 and I already had 180g out of 225 needed for a half lb. So i used that plus 20g each of 20 and 60 and am hoping to recreate the recipe soon, but have all this c20 and c60 left over
its a pain to get c40 where I am, no lhbs has it
 
That small of a substitution won't be noticeable. If your favorite recipes use C40, then it would be worth while buying a few pounds over the Intertubes. Lots of recipes use C20 or C60, so they won't be wasted. If you crushed the rest of the C20 and C60, just bag and freeze it. It's good for months.
 
Yeah, I have done this many times and every beer has come out fine. You can just brag about how this new recipe was made with an extra type of grain :)
 
My LHBS has pulled this BS when my father and I go there (I order most things online these days).

Will it be noticeable? Probably not. I think the color can be similar, but I think the taste would be off (if it could even be noticed). I think the attitude of the LHBS is that it's close enough for rock n roll. We have had to scold them on more than one occasion to not BS us (which is why I only shop there if I have to).

I don't see how mixing some 40 and some 90 will make 60.

To me it's like asking for a medium steak and the waiter tells you that they only have well done steaks, but will throw some raw beef in with it so it evens out...

I have no studies to prove how big of a deal this even is. Like everyone else said, it's probably not noticeable to the average brewer, but when you're trying to make sure everything is as consistent as possible, grain substitution concoctions don't help.

If the store is willing to do this sort of thing, are they always giving you the hops that you ask for, etc?
 
I don't see how mixing some 40 and some 90 will make 60.

To me it's like asking for a medium steak and the waiter tells you that they only have well done steaks, but will throw some raw beef in with it so it evens out...

LOVE IT! That's the A-list comedy there, folks!
 
I don't see how mixing some 40 and some 90 will make 60.

To me it's like asking for a medium steak and the waiter tells you that they only have well done steaks, but will throw some raw beef in with it so it evens out...

In terms of color it will work. Think of it as a color palette. If you have white and mix in some black, you get gray. If you have a light gray and dark gray, you'll end up with a gray that's somewhere between the two. It works the same with lovibond scale. It's a spectrum, so mixing two things on the spectrum will give you a result somewhere in between those two colors.
 
Ray Daniels talks about color and mixing in Designing Great Beers, even giving the precise ratios to mix three different commercial beers that will give you your own real-life Lovibond color scale. I don't have the book in front of me, but you jiggled that out of my memory.

So that's fine for color. But what about flavor? Are half-and-half of C20 and C60 going to give an approximation of 100% C40 flavor?
 
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