Flander's red aging

Hey guys!

I'm about to brew a Flander's Red and here's my project, quickly:

A first 6 gallons batch, 3-4 months on the cake, then secondary for X
A second batch, pitched on the cake, 3-4 months on the cake, then secondary for X. I plan for about 18months total, so an 18m old with a 14-15 months old blend at bottling. The recipe will be exactly the same both time, at least I have to ajust something (undershot or overshot too much the OG, wich I plan at 1055). WLP Flemish Ale blend, by the way.

My question is about how to get the acetic/balsamic notes.
I might buy a 20L (5.25gal) new oak barrel. Do you think 12-18 months of barrel aging of half the batch would give me these notes?

Should I put the first/oldest part in the barrel or the second part (which should be more sour than the first due to high bacteria cell count)?

How would you treat the barrel before using it?
I was thinking:
-Water, water, water to extract oak flavor
-Cheap wine and vodka for the same reason
-Better red wine or maybe bourbon to continue extract oak flavor and impart milder flavors
-Use it to age a big beer or a red wine kit in it
-Turn into a Flander's Red barrel

what'cha think?

Best way to get a little acetic or balsamic notes if you don't get it from fermentation is to add some balsamic vinegar at bottling. Sure it is kind of cheating, but rather than go through the trouble of the barrel and prep, why not just use your carboys? Then at bottling you can bend the batches and add balsamic to taste if you really want that flavor. You can go the barrel route which should certainly help with acetic acid development. If it doesn't enough then you always have the aceto de balsamico to play with.

I would not take the trouble and time to brew a Flander's Red and fermented it for almost 2 years to end up putting vinegar in it... It's my point of view. But thanks for the tip anyway.

Well other than intentional exposure to oxygen I've got nothing for you. What I told you is the most controllable way to produce what you want. Acetic acid is acetic acid, well as far as I am concerned in most cases. I don't care if it came from grape must, malt wort, or rice wine. As i am sure you know, the commercial producers blend for that flavor with many barrels and years of experience. You are working with two batches. So this is where a little rule bending is fine. I just consider my bottle of balsamic that I use for salad as my super acetic barrel. I used a few ounces in a 12 gal packaging session on my Flanders I brewed last year. Enough to get a flavor but not too much that you can pick out the acetic balsamic quality. To me its like saying I wont look at fake boobs because some chick wasn't born with them.

smokinghole said:

Well other than intentional exposure to oxygen I've got nothing for you. What I told you is the most controllable way to produce what you want. Acetic acid is acetic acid, well as far as I am concerned in most cases. I don't care if it came from grape must, malt wort, or rice wine. As i am sure you know, the commercial producers blend for that flavor with many barrels and years of experience. You are working with two batches. So this is where a little rule bending is fine. I just consider my bottle of balsamic that I use for salad as my super acetic barrel. I used a few ounces in a 12 gal packaging session on my Flanders I brewed last year. Enough to get a flavor but not too much that you can pick out the acetic balsamic quality. To me its like saying I wont look at fake boobs because some chick wasn't born with them.

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I didn't say it was a bad or cheap idea. I'm just saying it's not something I would do. I would prefer to have less of that acetic side than add vinegar. That's just my point of view. Again, nothing against your idea.

But still, sour mash and added lactic acid don't taste the same, when, theorically, it's the exact same lactic acid involved, so I don't know..!

You say: "Well other than intentional exposure to oxygen I've got nothing for you."

Well that's exactly why i'm using a long barrel aging. If I don't get much of acetic, well it's not the end of the world, I'm sure I'll have a nice oaky red sour.

Then, to go back to my question, which wasn't about barrel or not or vinegar or not: Any idea on what to put into the barrel?

I'll have a big 18%abv sweet sherry-mead (flor sherry in secondary) soon, maybe I could give it a go for a month in the barrel before the Flanders? Some residual honey and sherry flor can't be bad for the red I guess! And with that 18%abv it will suck a good amount of tannins.

Wouldn't using plastic fermentation containers get enough oxygen in there over that long period of time to get some acetic character? Maybe fermenting at least one portion in a bucket?

I am not sure exactly which beer/sour profile you are going for but, I have a flanders red that has been aging in a better bottle for six months that is straight up Rodenbach Grand Cru. I fermented with a primary pitch of Wyeast Roeselare and added commercial dreggs along the way. It is fantastic and I seriously cant imagine it getting much better but plan on letting it go for at least another six months anyways.

From what I've read a barrel of that size will let too much oxygen exposure over a long period, to a slightly lesser extent using a bucket, where as a glass carboy does not let in enough, and the better bottles are a good middle of the road? Speculation on this subject is easy to be found.

This post might not help your original questions, just food for thought...

Tiroux said:

Hey guys!
My question is about how to get the acetic/balsamic notes.
I might buy a 20L (5.25gal) new oak barrel. Do you think 12-18 months of barrel aging of half the batch would give me these notes?

what'cha think?

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I think that using such a small (and brand new) barrel for that long would not give you what you want in terms of a Flanders Red. Using a small barrel increases the ratio of oak contact area to beer volume, which reduces the time needed for imparting the flavors of oak. Commercial outfits generally use at least 55-60 gallon barrels if not foundres which are 20-120 hectolitres in size (hectolitre = 100 litres). These larger barrels have a low enough oak contact/beer volume ratio to allow for extended periods of aging.

If you are stuck on the 20L barrel, I would definitely ferment something else in it first (red wine sounds like a good choice) to cut down on the huge amount of vanillin you will extract from it on the first go around. I would also recommend tasting often.

In my own brewery, I use a combination of a primary ferment in plastic (~1 month) and then aging in glass carboys. This is how I can limit the oxygen exposure, but get just enough to cause a small amount of acetic notes. I can add oak products in the secondary - and have had good luck with oak cubes.

AmandaK said:

I think that using such a small (and brand new) barrel for that long would not give you what you want in terms of a Flanders Red. Using a small barrel increases the ratio of oak contact area to beer volume, which reduces the time needed for imparting the flavors of oak. Commercial outfits generally use at least 55-60 gallon barrels if not foundres which are 20-120 hectolitres in size (hectolitre = 100 litres). These larger barrels have a low enough oak contact/beer volume ratio to allow for extended periods of aging.

If you are stuck on the 20L barrel, I would definitely ferment something else in it first (red wine sounds like a good choice) to cut down on the huge amount of vanillin you will extract from it on the first go around. I would also recommend tasting often.

In my own brewery, I use a combination of a primary ferment in plastic (~1 month) and then aging in glass carboys. This is how I can limit the oxygen exposure, but get just enough to cause a small amount of acetic notes. I can add oak products in the secondary - and have had good luck with oak cubes.

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I ferment exclusively in glass, so I will have to get some oxygen exposure at some point... I will have to think about all that...

Other thing... Should I leave the beer on the primary cake for the whole aging?

I did my first sour (secondary w/ Brett C) using a glass carboy with a rubber stopper / air lock. I gently pushed the stopper so it was snug, not tight. After 6 months, the tartness was barely noticeable, so I loosened the stopper a little more. After another 6 mo., the tartness was just a little too much for my taste, but the beer was decent so I kegged it. For my second sour (using WL665 /Flemish for primary) I transferred to secondary, and this time pushed the stopper snug. It is at 6 months and is slightly tart, so this time I will just let it be for another 6 months.

I'm trying to figure all this stuff out too, so this is how I'm experimenting. I have a CO2 tank at the ready so I can purge the headspace if I feel the tartness is good and I want to continue aging for more "funkiness" (at least in theory). I will see how it goes...

I'm just now researching how to brew a good sour, but one method I've came across that might give you what you're looking for is the oak dowel method.

An oak dowel through the center of the stopper instead of an air lock into the beer, the oak will allow a bit of air to permeate and also impart some wood flavor.

Anyone with more experience feel free to straighten out my understanding of this, like I said, I'm just now getting started with sours.

Matt3989 said:

I'm just now researching how to brew a good sour, but one method I've came across that might give you what you're looking for is the oak dowel method.

An oak dowel through the center of the stopper instead of an air lock into the beer, the oak will allow a bit of air to permeate and also impart some wood flavor.

Anyone with more experience feel free to straighten out my understanding of this, like I said, I'm just now getting started with sours.

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I have seen that too... I'm curious to read some feedbacks about this method.

The oak dowel seems like a waste of time and effort. There is probably plenty of O2 transfer with the normal plastic stopper and airlock. Then each time you move the beer you introduce oxygen if you are not flushing your transfer hoses and receiving vessel with gas.

Okay, the first part of the beer is brewed since about 2 weeks. After meditation, I dropped the idea of the barrel aging for now; too risky and too uncertain for a first batch. Also I tasted some homebrewed and commercially brewed flanders red recently. Some wasn't (in fact, most of them wasn't) as balsamic as other I tasted before. Some was in fact really smooth, and I didn't hate that, even if it's not the best flanders I have tasted.

So after I'll just let go mine as it wants to go, and I'll see. But I have this idea. I have a big 15gallons demi-john that I never use because it's way to big for my brewing system. Since i'm already planning to mix 2 batches of flanders, reuse the cake and all that... why not 3?

So it would go like this:

- Brew 1
- Transfer after 4 months to a 5gal carboy, with oak.
- Brew 2 pitched on the cake
- Transfer after 4 months to a 5 gal carboy, with oak.
- (Now I have 5g of 4 months, 5g of 8 months.

Then I taste the two samples and see where I am. For brew 3, I adjust something if it needs too. And the idea would be to brew the 3rd batch, ferment clean, and transfer to the 15gal demi john the fallowing:
-5gallons of batch 1
-5gallons of batch 2
-5 gallons of fermented clean batch 3

From there, I sample ever 1-2 months to see where it goes until it's ready to bottle. (and maybe save a 3 or 5 gallons to age on cherries or to age further and blend with a big young brown.. who knows)

Any thoughts on inoculating the batch with acetobacter? I'm thinking take the dregs from a bottle of braggs cider vinegar and too it in if you're looking for vinegar taste, but can't say it wouldn't get out of hand and turn the whole batch into something you'd clean copper and brass fittings with

adding acetobacter on purpose? now there's a new one...

i would think that is a risky move. as you mentioned, it's something that has the potential to get out of hand.

RachmaelBenApplebaum said:

Any thoughts on inoculating the batch with acetobacter? I'm thinking take the dregs from a bottle of braggs cider vinegar and too it in if you're looking for vinegar taste, but can't say it wouldn't get out of hand and turn the whole batch into something you'd clean copper and brass fittings with

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Why would you want to do that?

No, thanks.

Is there not acetobactor in the commercial flanders yeast blends?

corkpuller said:

Is there not acetobactor in the commercial flanders yeast blends?

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No. Acetic acid may be acceptable in very small amounts, but is generally viewed as a flaw.

WLP 655

WLP 665

Wyeast 3763

ECY02

TNGabe said:

Why would you want to do that?

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Thinking outside the box. If you are really bent on having a balsamic/vinegary taste but don't wanna "cheat" and add the stuff, you'd have to go the good old fashion route and get the bugs to make it for you. I'm not sure why you'd add balsamic, which if it's any good is likely unfiltered and unpasteurized, wouldn't it expose your brew to undesirables anyways?

Worst case scenario, you have a lot of goodness to sprinkle on your fish & chips

Cheers

Way too risky, in my opinion. To get tiny amount of acetic acid due to micro oxydation on a long term is one thing... adding acetobacter is another thing. They will reproduce and can't easily screw up the batch.

If I don't get that balsamic touch with oxydation... then I'll stick to a ''milder'' version of the beer.

Yeah, I know, just a thought. It was my understanding that acetic acid from oxidation of ethanol usually happened in wine rather than beer, but I digress, I've never had a barrel-aged beer that had been sitting in excess of a year. What will you be using for top-up if you are in fact going to go the barrel route? Micro-oxygenation and evaporation will inevitably create a need for it so you don't get too much airspace in the barrel and accidentally cause acetobacter or mold to form. All my limited barrel knowledge is from winemaking. Maybe brew a small batch of the same thing on the side in a carboy and use it to draw some out and top up your barrel? If you already said something along those lines forgive me.

Cheers

RachmaelBenApplebaum said:

Yeah, I know, just a thought. It was my understanding that acetic acid from oxidation of ethanol usually happened in wine rather than beer, but I digress, I've never had a barrel-aged beer that had been sitting in excess of a year. What will you be using for top-up if you are in fact going to go the barrel route? Micro-oxygenation and evaporation will inevitably create a need for it so you don't get too much airspace in the barrel and accidentally cause acetobacter or mold to form. All my limited barrel knowledge is from winemaking. Maybe brew a small batch of the same thing on the side in a carboy and use it to draw some out and top up your barrel? If you already said something along those lines forgive me.

Cheers

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As it's been said, I decided not to go with the barrel route for this one. it will be a mix of 3 batches of 18, 14 and 10 months, probably. (Blended together for 8-10months before bottling)