Electric Keggle Carmelization Test

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LooyvilleLarry

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Since there has been much interest in electric kettles here, but fear of carmalization, I was thinking that perhaps a test was in order.

What if we made a "wort" of simple sugar water and boiled it for 60 minutes, then made a SRM measurement of the wort.

Would that be a good test to check for carmelization without risking a beer?
 
I'd think you would need to use wort. Even DME to 1.040 would probably give quite different results. Maybe not though. I'll email Jamil about it.
 
Hazarding a guess, I think it's using ME that's the problem. If you dump DME or LME into the kettle while the element is running then you are going to get some clumping on the element before the ME is in solution. I'm guessing that it is the ME sticking to the element which produces the (alleged) scorched flavor. Either that or people aren't stirring enough and the element is resting in a pool of undissolved ME at the bottom of the kettle.

Either way I'd love to see the results.
 
The fear is unfounded. :cool:

Adding DME/LME to an electric or gas fired kettle is no different. An electric heating element will scorch just like a gas flame will if you add the sugar while the kettle is being heated and the undissolved sugar heats up quickly. The caramelization temperatures for sugar are:

Sugar - Temperature
Fructose - 110°C, 230°F
Galactose - 160°C, 320°F
Glucose - 160°C, 320°F
Sucrose - 160°C, 320°F
Maltose - 180°C, 356°F

Simple solution - turn the flame/electricity off just before you add the malt extract, dissolve, and resume heating.
 
The fear is unfounded. :cool:

Adding DME/LME to an electric or gas fired kettle is no different. An electric heating element will scorch just like a gas flame will if you add the sugar while the kettle is being heated and the undissolved sugar heats up quickly. The caramelization temperatures for sugar are:

Sugar - Temperature
Fructose - 110°C, 230°F
Galactose - 160°C, 320°F
Glucose - 160°C, 320°F
Sucrose - 160°C, 320°F
Maltose - 180°C, 356°F

Simple solution - turn the flame/electricity off just before you add the malt extract, dissolve, and resume heating.

But those sugars are still present...just because they aren't in a concetrated extract form.

I'm not worried about the Extract carmelizing, I'm worried about the fermentable sugars in the wort carmelizing and imparting a different character to a finished beer.

Obviously in a stout, it wouldn't be hardly detectable-- but in a pils, it might be enough not to win an award. And personally, if it's going to take my beer from anything less than perfect, I don't want it.
 
And personally, if it's going to take my beer from anything less than perfect, I don't want it.

Well, that's probably a different discussion, but 80% of the techniques homebrewers employ are not "perfect/ideal". It's about practicality and cost effectiveness for most homebrewers.

From a fluids perspective, the risk of carmelization goes up with wort gravity. This is due to the nature of a viscous solution and it's tendency to radiate heat more slowly than a less viscous solution. This can result in hot spots during heating cycles that can be mitigated by (1) stirring or (2) recirculation pump.

If you're brewing a pilsner, I think you would have to work pretty hard to produce detectable levels of caramels using an electric heating element. Brewing an imperial stout, well, caramels just add to the flavor. :p
 
Well, that's probably a different discussion, but 80% of the techniques homebrewers employ are not "perfect/ideal". It's about practicality and cost effectiveness for most homebrewers.

From a fluids perspective, the risk of carmelization goes up with wort gravity. This is due to the nature of a viscous solution and it's tendency to radiate heat more slowly than a less viscous solution. This can result in hot spots during heating cycles that can be mitigated by (1) stirring or (2) recirculation pump.

If you're brewing a pilsner, I think you would have to work pretty hard to produce detectable levels of caramels using an electric heating element. Brewing an imperial stout, well, caramels just add to the flavor. :p

So, it sounds like it's a fair assumption that an electric heating element would cause more carmelization than a traditional gas burner?
 
So, it sounds like it's a fair assumption that an electric heating element would cause more carmelization than a traditional gas burner?

I don't believe I said or alluded to that. :confused:

What I said is - it's a factor of wort gravity and "hot spots" in the kettle. Both gas burners and electric heating elements contribute to those conditions. Gas burners directly heat the bottom of the kettle creating a hot spot. Electric heating elements directly heat a steel tube (or tubes) creating a hot spot(s). Pick your poison.
 
Would also depend on the density and wattage rating of the element used. It would be impossible to do one test and conclude that "YES" or "NO that electric BK product carmelization.

From everyone I've talked to it's a non-issue. Use an ultra-low density element. Like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Kal
 
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Hey guys, James Spencer from Basic Brewing wrote me back about this.

My original Email:


Message: Hey James!

I'm considering using an electric heating element to heat my brew kettle and mash tun. I'm a little worried about some carmelization effects from this method. Do you think this would be a problem? Also, can you think of a way to test the amount of carmelization this method creates as opposed to direct heat? One way a fellow homebrewer suggested is using simple sugar and checking the SRM afterwards, but I'd imagine the carmelization would have to be quite significant to render results.

Thanks James-- Love the Show!

Steve
Location: Atlanta, GA

His Response:

Steve,

I'm assuming you're referring to a "heat stick" or similar device tested to be safe in brewing. Just being extra cautious on my part, since water and electricity don't get along. :)

That's a good question. One way to test it would be to brew a recipe that you've brewed before and check the color and flavor against a previous example. Also, if you see burned sugar on the heating element itself, that would be a giveaway.

This is one that I don't have any experience with. I know there are brewers out there who use the technique. I'm thinking if there were big problems we would have heard about them.

Let me know what you find out. Glad you like the show!

Cheers,
James
 
I don't think you're going to get a "sure, use an element directly in your wort" answer from anyone like Jamil or James. Potential liability, etc. James' "heat stick" comment shows a slight ignorance of what most electric brewers can do. (No knock on him - most people think we are nuts.)

FWIW, with the ULD element, I've noticed no difference from using my turkey fryer. (well, speed and convenience...) I use a 4500W element. For extract, I turn the element off when adding and give it a good stir. With lighter beers, you can see the convection currents in the pot. The wort is constantly moving.

Having said that, I would like to be able to lower the wattage of the element to maintain a boil or temperature rather than the timed on/off that my PID does when in manual mode. Ie, when set to 50 percent, it's 1 second on, one second off. I'd like to be able to have it just be 2250W. You can do this with 120V fairly easily, but not 240V.

also, for legal reasons: Never ever do what I do. It will probably kill you and burn your house down. You are an adult, decide like one...
 
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