Need help designing an Imperial Red Recipe

So I want to put together another recipe from scratch in beersmith and this time I am wanting to try my hand at an Imperial Red ale. Something along the lines of Lagunitas Imperial Red Ale. I want there to be a nice big clean red malt background perfectly balanced by a nice dose of american hops. This is a recipe that I put together off the top of my head and have no idea if I would even wind up with a beer that is red. Any helpful critique/insight would be greatly appreciated as I would really like to get this style nailed down and have pretty much no idea what I am doing here.

Imerial Red

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 77.8 %
1 lbs Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.6 %
1 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.6 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.8 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.8 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6 2.8 %
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 2.8 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 33.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 15.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 7.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 11.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 6.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 15 -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.077
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.5 %
Bitterness: 74.7 IBUs
Est Color: 10.3 SRM

Amber and Melanoidin are both crystal/caramel type malts and both are about the same lovibond (coloring). i would use caramel 60 instead of both of those for about 8% of the grain. you will also need to add a touch of something dark to give the red colors. You can use chocolate or black malt (black patent) but be VERY cafeful with the amount. Use just enough to bump the SRM up, anything more it will taste like raisins. I use 4oz for a 12gal batch.

I have been straying away from crystal malts lately due to their sometimes overpowering sweetness. Would it be advisable to drop the crystal and up the meloidin, munich or amber then? Just looking for a nice big almost bready malt flavor as opposed to an overly sweet one.

The amber and melanoidin are both caramel malts similar to the caramel/crystal malts that are commonly used in american beers. im not sure of the exact differences (maybe a different base grain? pils malt vs domestic 2row?) but both will give you caramel sweetness to the recipe.

as long as you keep the percentage down on the crystal 60 and add a kilned malt to balance it (munich would work, or vienna/biscuit/victory--depending on how much "roastiness" you want) then ther balance should work nicely.

That will definitely get you a nice malt backbone for you beer. However, you do want to up the color rating. For my red I shoot for 14-16.

You can also tweak mash temp to avoid the residual sweetness - I've got a Double Red IPA that I just tapped and 155F was just a bit too warm. It's good, but the bitter hop shine through with that extra sweetness.

I had 1oz Chocolate and 1oz debittered black in 17lb of grain with 8oz Crystal 80 and it's just a touch dark (brown instead of red). You're Crystal 60 be an improvement over mine. Other option might be adding some Cara-Red if your HBS carries it to get the distinct color.

Ok, so this is what I have come up with after your suggestions. Will plan to mash at 152 to get a nice balance between dry and malty without being too sweet. Also added 3 oz chocolate malt to darken it up. How does that amount sound? What do you guys think now?


Ingredients

13 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.6 %
1 lbs Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
1 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.8 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.9 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.9 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6 2.9 %
3.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 1.1 %
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 8 2.9 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 9 34.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 16.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 7.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 12 11.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 6.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 16 -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 76.8 IBUs
Est Color: 14.0 SRM

carared has a lovibond of 20, the same as caramel 20. so be careful because you can overdo the sweetness with that the same.

if you want a bready/malty beer you might want a small amount lf low lovibond caramel (c20 or carared) and use victory for the bready component.

what would be a good malt to substitute victory for in order to get a slight bready feel? also, wouldnt swapping the c-60 for c-20 drop my srm too much?

The revised recipe has total caramel percent of 11.6%, which will definitely give you a sweet beer (regardless of mash temp). the 11.6% comes from 5.8 mela, 2.9 amber and 2.9 c60. i would recommend not exceeding 8% of caramel. personally, i would only use a single caramel malt to keep it simple (c40 or c60) for 5% or so.

also, the only bready component you are going to get in this is from the munich which is light flavor at best. if you want bready use victory or biscuit. you could replace the munich with those or keep it, either way.

Bisco_Ben said:

what would be a good malt to substitute victory for in order to get a slight bready feel? also, wouldnt swapping the c-60 for c-20 drop my srm too much?

Click to expand...

A less bready victory would be biscuit. try to adjust the srm using black patent or the chocolate and not from the caramel malts. also, 3oz might be a bit much for a 5gal batch...its really easy to have too much roast in a red.

I was unaware of how much caramel malt i had added. Would definitely like to cut back on that and up the bready malt percentage while keeping the srm between the recommended 14-16. Also want to keep the OG around 1.070.

How is this for a revised grain-bill? Tried to cut down on the crystal malts to avoid too much sweetness and added the victory to get some breadyness going on.

Ingredients

14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.4 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.9 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.9 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.9 %
3.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.1 %
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 2.9 %


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 77.1 IBUs
Est Color: 13.9 SRM

take a look at the famous Janets Brown Ale recipe for some percentages to base off of. that beer is similar to a red ale but with a well proven grain bill.

Bisco_Ben said:

How is this for a revised grain-bill? Tried to cut down on the crystal malts to avoid too much sweetness and added the victory to get some breadyness going on.

Ingredients

14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.4 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.9 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.9 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.9 %
3.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.1 %
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 2.9 %


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 77.1 IBUs
Est Color: 13.9 SRM

Click to expand...

this looks pretty good. hopefully some other folks can weigh in on it also. often times simpler is better. i guess my only concern is whether or not the 2.9% of choc is too much roast flavor.

3.0 oz of chocolate malt is stated being 1.1% in this recipe. Was still wondering if 3oz was too much and if I should maybe just use 2 instead.

Also, this is all for a 6 gallon batch. Sorry for not mentioning that before.

Amber malt is not a crystal malt. It is a roasted malt that provides a strong and unique bread crust/cocoa/biscuit flavor. I wouldn't call melanoidin a crystal malt either, though it does increase the overall "malty-ness" percieved in beer. I think that between the munich and the amber malt you can get a perfectly acceptable amount of bread character.

SO kraphtbier, do you think I should leave the munich instead of swapping it for victory? and also should I have not dropped the melanoidin? As ive said I am just really trying to stay away from the sweet side of things while retaining a nice big "red ale" malt character. I wouldnt mind experimenting with victory malt however, as I use munich in my ipa recipes.

after further consideration, how does biscuit sound instead off victory. At this point I am just torn between using biscuit or munich instead of victory and then i think the recipe is complete.

Munich is a good choice for a beer like this. It will leave a bready flavor and increase the maltiness. I dont think Victory or Biscuit would be bad either. If you already use Munich in your IPA i dont think its a bad idea to experiment with a different "accent" malt like Victory. The amber malt could be a good addition for this beer - if you havent brewed with it before its the roasted malty flavor that is so prominent in 90 minute IPA from Dogfish Head. This is a style that I am interested in as well. I just recently made an Imperial Red Ale that took first place in "Specialty beers" but i want to make some changes to it because it didn't come out with a big enough malt flavor. Here is my grain bill for your reference along with what i want to change it to:

Maris Otter - 65.1% - had a bag sitting around. bigger malt flavor from a base malt
Quaker Oats - 8.9% - Going for mouthfeel
Belgian Aromatic - 5.9% - looking for increased malt aroma.
Crystal 40 - 4.5% - color
CaraPils - 4.5% - body
Munich 10L - 4.5% - body, bready, maltiness (split with Victory)
Victory - 4.5% - body, bready, maltiness (split with Munich)
Crystal 120 - 2.2% - color

Next time ill probably change it around to this:

Maris Otter - 64.3% - Base
Munich 20L - 11.2% - Malt
Quaker Oats - 8.9% - Body
Crystal 60 - 8.9% - color, flavor
Crystal 120 - 4.5% - color, flavor
Amber - 2.2% - color, flavor

Simplified it a bit. A the end of the day just brew it, you know?

So after the suggestions regarding the grain-bill, I have decided on this recipe to brew tomorrow. I am just wondering what you guys think about my hop-schedule. It was somewhat randomly put together just in attempts to use up what hops I have on hand. I am very new to designing recipes and am still figuring it all out so any suggestions are definitely appreciated!

Imperial Red

Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 81.4 %
1 lbs Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.8 %
8.0 oz Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.9 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.9 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.9 %
3.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.1 %
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 2.9 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 34.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 16.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 7.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 11 11.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 6.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 15 -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 76.9 IBUs
Est Color: 13.8 SRM

Looks good...I'm sure it will turn out great.

If you feel like researching further on something you might want to consider doing the 0min hops as flame-out hops and letting them sit with the burner and chiller off for a 'hop stand'. If I'm going to do a dry hop addition I let my "0min" hops sit with the burner and chiller off for 15+minutes. I like the way the aroma from the hop stand blends with the grassy dry hops.

The hop schedule is not an exact science and most brewers all have their own methods with this...just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your input. I have been experimenting with hot-steeps at the end of my boils for a few months now to get better aroma out of my ipa's and have been loving the results. Then I realized that most any brewery does a whirlpool after boiling and doesn't chill immediately, so i have started to do a 15-20 minute hot-steep on all of my brews in order to I guess mimic what happens when the beer is being whirlpooled and held at less-than-boiling yet still high temperatures. Whether this is a factor or not, my brews have absolutely been getting better and better. Just hoping this recipe works out and results in a fine brew.

That will be a good beer...I'm kegging a similar beer this week which tastes great.

My 12gal recipe was as follows:
85.4% Pale (Maris Otter)
7.8% C40
3.9% Munich
1.2% C60
1% Chocolate (4oz)
0.7% C75

3oz Chinook 60min
3oz Centennial 5min
4oz Cascade 5min

1oz Chinook Dry Hop
1oz Cascade Dry Hop
1oz Centennial Dry Hop

I ended up throwing in some odd leftovers of malts I had in this one to get rid of them. That's why I have 0.7% C75.