Alternative Fermentation Vessels - Opinions Needed

I am trying to find a compact solution to allow me to control the fermentation temps of my brew. I really hate the idea of buying a huge chest freezer and so inefficiently using the space with typical glass carboys. It seems like if I want two carboys, I have to get an even larger, more expensive, more energy consuming freezer and build a collar for it. As a result, I've been considering alternative fermentation vessels.

The most ideal solution that I've found at the moment is to use this 1 cubic foot aquarium:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewi..._campaign=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_content=AZ1133

It measures 1' x 1' x 1' and can hold about 7.5 gallons. If I put a 5 gallon batch in it, it should have about 4" of headspace. I'm considering siliconing a glass or plexiglass top onto it and putting holes for some sort of airlock. By my calculations, I should be able to put 3 of these in a typical ~5 cu ft. assuming I come up with some manner to stack two of them in the part of the freezer without the compressor hump. The fish tanks are essentially the same price as a carboy. There is about 20% difference in the surface area, but I can always flush the secondary with cO2, and potentially find a way to flush the primary with O2. I would probably build a carboy hauler made of webbing for its square body.

The second I idea I had was to use something like this:
http://www.acemart.com/prod3841.html

It could be a bit cheaper than a carboy, and I was thinking about finding a means to clamp a lid on. In this case, I could fill in the void left by the compressor, and stack 3 on top of each other. Seems less desirable to me, but could be another option.

Anybody have any thoughts, reasons why this wouldn't be a good idea?

I'm not sure I would trust the sanitation of the silicone in the aquariums. Nor do I think you would be able to stack them. I use an old fridge (40 dollars+temperature control) for my fermentation chamber. Once the beers are done fermenting (usually a week) I move them to the 'man cave' in the basement. No need to worry too much about temperatures once fermentation is done. Carboys suit me just fine. I can have two batches in the fridge and an unlimited amount in my basement room at one time. Also I unplug the fridge when fermentation is done....no wasted energy.

Well, a typical refrigerator is about 18 cu ft. That is about 135 gallons of liquid volume, or about 22 6 gallon carboys worth. Assuming you can fit 2 carboys in there, you are using about 10% of your space and 90% is wasted. In terms of refrigeration, its very much putting a round peg in a square hole. I'm also annoyed at the required increase in marginal size of the freezer for each additional carboy just because my vessel isn't particularly well shaped for the box.

Moreover, glass carboys are hard to clean, at risk of breakage, and not especially light. I'm not sure there is a single vessel that overcomes all of these flaws, and perhaps glass carboys are the happiest medium. I'm thinking, however somewhere there at least has to be something that is a little better at efficiently using refrigeration space.

Any other thoughts about the silicone?

Most aquariums are not designed to be moved while full. Picking one up with 5 gallons of beer is asking for trouble.

Look up aquatainers, folda water carriers or vittle vaults, people use them for fermenters all the time, they come in various sizes and shape configurations. The aquatainers are favorties of no chill brewers, you can pour your boiling wort right in to them. Homebrew shops buy up vittle's vaults and add their own airlocks, and spigots and charge even up to 100 bucks for 30 gallon versions.

Good point about moving it. That and the silicone might make it a non-starter. Unfortunately, the only 12" deep rectangular / cubic stainless vessel I have found is a sink, and its not cheap.

If you really like the aquarium idea i suggest you Acrylic aquariums you can get them in just about any size. Here is a site that sells a ton of them http://www.glasscages.com/?sAction=Home

These are probably better than aquariums actually, but a little more expensive:
http://www.boatdepot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=RW-B326

I'm a little put off on the use of plastic, but there may not be a feasible alternative. Some stuff I read claims that over time even PET breaks down and leeches some toxic chemicals. I don't fully know what chemicals these other containers are made of. The only toxic chemical I'm looking to consume is ethanol!

No offense to olympionex here but I am always amazed at how people get worried about plastic and aluminum in home brewing. Both may be bad for you though I highly doubt it. Either way they are impossible to avoid in our society. I’m sure just about every product you buy and eat has had extended contact with aluminum or plastic or something ten times worse. Do you never drink anything out of bottle or a can? Do you avoid all canned foods? Do you never eat out as I'm sure a large percentage of restaurants pull ingredients out of a plastic bucket or bag and cook them up with aluminum pots and pans. These examples are only the tip of the iceberg. I don't think the difference on whether you live or die is what you brew your homebrew in.

No offense taken, and you are certainly correct about commonly being exposed to it. Its just that when confronted with it, I prefer to seek different options. Before I posted, I had also just read something about PET leaching dangerous chemicals, and of course there is the BpA stuff. Its recommended not to re-use PET. I wonder if the better bottles have this problem with extended use. On the other hand, much of what I've read about HDPE seems to indicate that its pretty safe for this sort of application. As a result, it looks like those options listed by Revvy are both good and decently priced ($8-25) and are nicely shaped to maximize space efficiency in a rectangular freezer. Thanks a lot for the suggestions.

What Revvy said...

Revvy,

Thanks for the info again. I picked up a vittle vault today and I'm very excited about the prospects for it. Seems like a great vessel. Its very space efficient and works well for my setup. I can drain directly from my kettle into it without having to lift the kettle. (I have a short pot rest). I just need to figure out where to drill for the air lock if I want to stack them.

As an alternative, use corney kegs! I have been using these almost exclusively for the last 2-3 years.

They use a much smaller footprint, getting much greater efficiency of space from your fridge/freezer.

Additionally they are similarly priced to carboys, are SS, co2 transferring if you desire, no light strike issues, etc. And a big reason why I use them-- they can be multi-purposed (serving and fermenting) meaning lower total brewery investment. I try and do this with as much of my equipment as possible. Less cost, less storage, less consumption of goods.

Try it, lots do. Even if you do not currently keg, I still think they are an ideal fermentation vessel.

Oh, and I routinely ferment 4.5g batches in them. "Losing" a 1/2g is a trade-off I am more than willing to make, and have never "missed". Additionally if I do smaller batches, after primary ferment if I want to lager/extended secondary I rack, purge with co2, and then let it go-- no headspace worry issues (because of o2 saturation).

Just my .02

Coincidentally, I just broke my 6 gallon bucket and have been searching for an alternative. Vittle vaults are attractive but damn expensive. I'm thinking of using a cheap rectangular rubbermaid-like storage container. A 35-qt size is going for $7 at Ace.

cyberbackpacker said:

As an alternative, use corney kegs! I have been using these almost exclusively for the last 2-3 years.

They use a much smaller footprint, getting much greater efficiency of space from your fridge/freezer.

Additionally they are similarly priced to carboys, are SS, co2 transferring if you desire, no light strike issues, etc. And a big reason why I use them-- they can be multi-purposed (serving and fermenting) meaning lower total brewery investment. I try and do this with as much of my equipment as possible. Less cost, less storage, less consumption of goods.

Try it, lots do. Even if you do not currently keg, I still think they are an ideal fermentation vessel.

Oh, and I routinely ferment 4.5g batches in them. "Losing" a 1/2g is a trade-off I am more than willing to make, and have never "missed". Additionally if I do smaller batches, after primary ferment if I want to lager/extended secondary I rack, purge with co2, and then let it go-- no headspace worry issues (because of o2 saturation).

Just my .02

Click to expand...

Do you rack out of the dip tube? If so, what do you do about the trub?

Yes, I do rack out of the liquid dip tube. I always do a cold crash to set the trub bed, and doing this I get some trub sucked up right away, but then the rest of the transfer is clear. When i pull off the first pint from the keg, that glass is yeasty, but all the rest are crystal clear.

FWIW my ~14 CF $20 craigslist fridges will each hold four 6.5 gal carboys plus a case of bottles for conditioning and two 1-gal growlers for test batches. As mentioned kegs are another option that have a smaller footprint. I can fit eight 5 gal cornys or six 1/4 bbl sankeys in my fridges. Still not super efficient use of space, but more than the 2 carboys quoted.

Juan,

What is the model of your fridge? I'm curious to see the dimensions. Most fridges I've looked at didn't seem like they could hold so much. With the vittles vault, it looks like I can store three 6.6 gallon boxes in a 5.3 CF freezer with a bit of room to spare.

What you need is a round fridge. : P

olympionex said:

Revvy,

Thanks for the info again. I picked up a vittle vault today and I'm very excited about the prospects for it. Seems like a great vessel. Its very space efficient and works well for my setup. I can drain directly from my kettle into it without having to lift the kettle. (I have a short pot rest). I just need to figure out where to drill for the air lock if I want to stack them.

Click to expand...

I've been using vittle vaults for years. Drill square in the center of the lid for the airlock and as low as possible on one of the beveled corners for a spigot, if you're into them.

The top (not lid) and associated gasket underneath are removable but you need to set the vittle vault upside down in really hot water for 5-10 minutes to make the plastic give a little. Then it pulls right off. I generally remove and clean mine every 4-5 batches.

olympionex said:

Juan,

What is the model of your fridge? I'm curious to see the dimensions. Most fridges I've looked at didn't seem like they could hold so much. With the vittles vault, it looks like I can store three 6.6 gallon boxes in a 5.3 CF freezer with a bit of room to spare.

Click to expand...

No clue. They're both older (1980's?) pretty standard width/depth and a little shorter than average. I bought them very used on craigslist, one for $20 and one for $15. I did have to remove the door shelves to maximize the space, and build a small platform to get things above the compressor hump.

Here's what I did to the first one. The second one looks a little nicer, but I don't have any pics handy.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Converting-a-fridge-for-fermenting-beer/

jkarp,

I'm would like to potentially stack to vittle vaults on top of each other which is why I don't necessarily wish to drill into the lid. I need to see what the liquid level of 5 gallons looks like in order to see if I can drill into the side a bit.

I have the vittle vault plus, I wonder if it has this removable top that you speak of.

if you looking at 10 gallon batchs, the curtec 7055 seem like a good option. I just got two for xmas, very sturdy, stackable, good seal.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-new-15-gal-fermenter-need-help-207798/

cyberbackpacker said:

Yes, I do rack out of the liquid dip tube. I always do a cold crash to set the trub bed, and doing this I get some trub sucked up right away, but then the rest of the transfer is clear. When i pull off the first pint from the keg, that glass is yeasty, but all the rest are crystal clear.

Click to expand...

Possible dumb question here, but why rack out at all? Why not switch the lid, carb it up, and serve?

cyberbackpacker said:

Yes, I do rack out of the liquid dip tube. I always do a cold crash to set the trub bed, and doing this I get some trub sucked up right away, but then the rest of the transfer is clear. When i pull off the first pint from the keg, that glass is yeasty, but all the rest are crystal clear.

Click to expand...

Do you only pull up the trub and the top of the yeast, or does the whole yeast cake come out? It seems like you could easily push the cake out into a jar for yeast washing.

olympionex said:

jkarp,

I'm would like to potentially stack to vittle vaults on top of each other which is why I don't necessarily wish to drill into the lid. I need to see what the liquid level of 5 gallons looks like in order to see if I can drill into the side a bit.

I have the vittle vault plus, I wonder if it has this removable top that you speak of.

Click to expand...

Yes, the threaded ring/top is on all vittle vaults. It's technically not intended to be removed by the manufacturer but for our use it's necessary for periodic cleaning. As I mentioned, the plastic becomes pliable enough for removal after a little heat.

Clever thought on stacking. You could airlock one of the upper beveled corners or even forgo the airlock entirely if you removed the gasket under the ring.

The VV 15 (which I use) is 4.7 gal, and it easily ferments 3.5 gal; 4 with a blowoff tube. The VV 30 is 8 gal, 50 is 13 gal, and 80 is 20 gal.

fuzzybee said:

Possible dumb question here, but why rack out at all? Why not switch the lid, carb it up, and serve?

Click to expand...

I rack for a few reasons...

-I tend to use "side draw" corney's (where the liquid dip tube draws from the bottom side of the keg) for fermenting, and "center draw" corney's (where the liquid dip tube draws from the bottom center of the keg) for serving, as using the side draw tends to pick up the least amount of sediment. I have used both to ferment, but as I said I tend to prefer the side draw.

-It takes me a while to finish a keg of beer, so I rack off the big trub/yeast cake for peace of mind about autolysis, etc.

-I had a keg that took about me about ~8 months to rack off, and cleaning it afterwards was much more difficult... the krausen ring and all of the gunk that rises up the sides of the top of the keg was a pain to get out compared to my normal methods. Racking sooner prevents that type of headache.

-I have never tried what you mention, but when I do finish kegs and replace them, most of the other kegs get jostled around too... if I were to serve out of the fermenting vessel, that big cake would get stirred up again and some would get pulled out when I served from it.

-Some kegs get carbed out of the kegerator... the trub/yeast cake would not be as compact, and again, more prone to being poured out when serving.

These are reasons why I do it this way, and based upon my experiences with my setup and equipment. Might I change my ways? Sure, but for now this has worked for me.


That said, if you wanted, there would be no need to replace the lid... just carb and go. (I use a piece of tubing attached to a ball lock connector that I place the air lock into, or just a blow off tube off the ball lock connector).

lmnop said:

Do you only pull up the trub and the top of the yeast, or does the whole yeast cake come out? It seems like you could easily push the cake out into a jar for yeast washing.

Click to expand...

I cannot tell you exactly what is pulled, as it is happening in a closed transfer and the keg is sealed-- but I am 99% certain it is a yeast/trub mixture.

What I do know for certain is at the start of the transfer the beer is "cloudy" but after a few seconds it runs clear. When I open the fermenting keg, there is an area around the dip tube, about the size of a quarter usually, that is clear and devoid of trub/yeast (i.e. I see the SS bottom) and the rest of the bottom of the keg not near the diptube is covered in trub/yeast.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Oh, and additionally, my diptubes are neither cut or bent.

olympionex said:

Well, a typical refrigerator is about 18 cu ft. That is about 135 gallons of liquid volume, or about 22 6 gallon carboys worth. Assuming you can fit 2 carboys in there, you are using about 10% of your space and 90% is wasted. In terms of refrigeration, its very much putting a round peg in a square hole. I'm also annoyed at the required increase in marginal size of the freezer for each additional carboy just because my vessel isn't particularly well shaped for the box.

Click to expand...

Who cares? Is this really a problem?

If it really drives you crazy then build a fermentation chamber to fit your fermenter(s). Not the other way around. A glycol jacketed conical would be the way to go. But really who cares if there is empty air space in your fridge? Does it bother you that the food does not take up all the space in the fridge? Do you car pool? Do you ride a motorcycle? Do you fear taking buses because the empty seats make you sad?

Empty seats make me sad......

I bet they could have fit like 10 more empty benches in that picture. What a waste of good pixels

cyberbackpacker said:

Hope that helps.

Click to expand...

Helped a lot, thanks!