Sweet vinegar?

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YoungBerry

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I started off a three gallon batch of mead (my first) last week. It took about 30 hours to start to show activity (I honestly think the yeast I was using, expired so I got it for free, was dead. A known risk, but it was only a month expired), and it was foaming just fine after it finally got started. But today I noticed that it had a very acid smell to it. I tasted it and it has a very sharp, but sweet, flavor.

Have I been left with three gallons of a very sweet, tasty vinegar?

Awesome if I have, I actually like the taste (though I think it needs a little aging to mellow), but I'm kind of disappointed that it turned out like this. On the other hand, salad dressing for everyone for Christmas!
 
You are smelling the carbonic acid (CO2).
Vinegar tastes like it smells and you wouldn't like it much.

This sounds like a normal, young mead full of CO2.
 
1 week old mead is no reflection on how it will be once finished.

What was the OG?
What honey did you use?
What yeast did you use?
What's the SG?
Did you give it any nutrients, or aerate it?

Mead typically takes months from start until it's ready, or close to ready, for drinking. Higher ABV meads can take a year, or longer, before it's actually good.
 
1 week old mead is no reflection on how it will be once finished.

What was the OG?
What honey did you use?
What yeast did you use?
What's the SG?
Did you give it any nutrients, or aerate it?

Mead typically takes months from start until it's ready, or close to ready, for drinking. Higher ABV meads can take a year, or longer, before it's actually good.

I have no clue about the OG, I don't own a sacchrometer/hydrometer (I'm actually reading a lot in a book my grandfather left me when he died, so some of the lingo has changed it seems), so I have no measurements. I just know that it smells very acid, but it tasted sharp but okay (no keeling over dead, at least, and definitely no mold). And just a White Labs sweet mead yeast, nothing fancy (I really didn't want to finish the mead dry). I added about two teaspoons of baker's yeast as well.

I gave it some yeast nutrient and energizer (just standard stuff, about a tablespoon in total of each with no plans for more), and a small jar of rhubarb juice (from my cousin's garden, I had no clue what to do with it, so I just poured it in as well for kicks). It's just regular clover honey (very delicious, I've been using the leftover on biscuits), and I have been aerating it at least three times a day. The airlock is bubbling away happily still (about one bubble a minute, at least), so it's active.

But I'm just a little worried. Vinegar never killed anyone (at least one crazy Caesar drank it with pearls dissolved in it, so...), but I'm a little sad that I might have failed.
 
Without an OG or any other real info, it's virtually impossible to say how it will end up.

I would recommend reading up on actual CURRENT methods of making mead before starting another batch. Got mead's web site is full of great info, and the forums have extremely helpful people on them. I would ask them before starting another batch, once you know what you want to put into it.

I would also say go out and get a hydrometer at the very least. Otherwise, you don't know what your OG is, and won't know when you've hit a FG. Without that, you could bottle and have bottle bombs from all of it.

You added bakers yeast into the must?? Probably not a very good idea... Unless you had boiled it so that it was dead, as nutrient...

I was going to say it's really difficult to mess something up, but...

Best you can do, now, is let it ride in bulk for many months, racking off of the lees when they build up, and see how it is in 6-12 months... Before you start anther batch, get more info on better methods. I hate seeing good honey get abused.

I would also suggest using Lalvin Labs yeast for mead... I've used EC-1118, D47, and recently 71B-1122 with really solid results. Plus, you can get good info on them, such as temperatures to ferment with and what they'll give you in the end result. Fermentation temperature IS important for mead, just as it is for beer.
 
I didn't really see a single bit of difference between the Got Mead? site and my grandfather's book, outside of a lingo change. There's a little difference (the book told me to get a sacchometer too, but at the time I was kind of out of it, so I have to go back to get a secondary anyway), but it's basically all the same. Nutrients and energizers (with notes from grandfather about different fruits and whatnot), teas and acids, ph measurements (grandma was a chemist, so some of her notes are amazingly funny), and how to measure when is a proper time to rack and when to bottle.

Mead making, believe it or not, has been around long enough that forty years really isn't long enough to change anything but a few words.

And the mead is pretty much stuck fermenting at room temp (though it is running itself warm). So next time, before you decide to call someone's attempt at anything a waste of good honey, please at least try to be polite. I mean, seriously? A waste of honey? At the very least I'm going to get some good vinegar out of it, and I do go through vinegar on a regular basis (god I love a good salad, not to mention tempura dipping sauce), so it's not all bad. Just... a lot.
 
First off, I didn't call your batch a waste of honey... I said "I hate seeing good honey get abused." Big enough difference there if you care to think about it.

I do know that making mead has been around for thousands of years. BUT, at least knowing some information really does help when you're ASKING FOR HELP... Not having an OG, or what the SG is, or how much of this or that you added because your flying loose is a bit silly.

Personally I wouldn't put BAKERS yeast in any of my brews, as something that is alive. IF it's been killed, and was added as a nutrient, that's great. Plenty of people do it.

There is enough of a shift from 40 years ago to today in parts of the process. Such as NOT heating the honey at all. Plenty of people are making beyond great mead without applying a single BTU of heat to their honey. Thinking you need to, is an outdated method. Do you think they did that 1000 years ago?

As with most fermenting process, how people do them does change over time. While we probably won't see a radical shift in our lifetime, there can be significant changes during that span. To not even look at such information, or how people are doing things now compared with 40+ years ago is close-minded. More than just terminology changes.

These days, people rely less on time periods (days, hours, etc.) for when to move mead, beer, or other fermentings (on the home level)... Without being able to take a reading of what's going on, who knows where it actually is within the process...

Personally, I'll continue to take periodic readings on my mead batches, tasting from time to time (over the months) and make decisions based on that, plus conventional methods. If you want to follow the 40+ year old book, go right ahead. Chances are, you'll get the info you already have, which is pretty sparse, in response.

I was trying to be helpful. But without at least some info, it's more than a bit difficult. Coming off all on the offensive, is rather offensive to me... SO let your batch ride for several more months, and then decide what to do with it. Thinking that something will be even close to anything good after about a week, isn't all that bright, when it comes to mead... Hell, even beer won't be ready in that short a time frame. Again, on the home brewing level, without ultra tight temperature controls and such. Since you're letting it sit at room temp, and have no idea what the must is fermenting at (for a temp) you could end up with almost anything. Could be great, could be not even close. Could take a few years before it's drinkable, could take just a few months, could take longer than we're alive...

RDWHAHB
 
Wow, at least I know to ignore your advice from now on. I'd rather take the knowledge from a book, that's actually produced some amazing mead in the past, than from the internet that's produced nothing but some YouTube videos and some badly scripted web sites.

You honestly think that mead making has been revolutionized in the past forty years? Everything you just argued was in the book. Literally. You biatch about the scientific method of observation being new. Wow. Literally, wow.

Mental note: this is not the forum for asking for advice, at all.
 
this is a great forum for asking advice and in my opinion golddiggie was trying hard to be helpful - just because you disagreed with his advice doesn't make it bad advice.

chill and be open to suggestions:mug:
 
The acid taste is probably from the rhubarb juice you added, rhubarb is ridiculously acidic.
 
I didn't really see a single bit of difference between the Got Mead? site and my grandfather's book, outside of a lingo change. There's a little difference (the book told me to get a sacchometer too, but at the time I was kind of out of it, so I have to go back to get a secondary anyway), but it's basically all the same. Nutrients and energizers (with notes from grandfather about different fruits and whatnot), teas and acids, ph measurements (grandma was a chemist, so some of her notes are amazingly funny), and how to measure when is a proper time to rack and when to bottle.

Mead making, believe it or not, has been around long enough that forty years really isn't long enough to change anything but a few words.

And the mead is pretty much stuck fermenting at room temp (though it is running itself warm). So next time, before you decide to call someone's attempt at anything a waste of good honey, please at least try to be polite. I mean, seriously? A waste of honey? At the very least I'm going to get some good vinegar out of it, and I do go through vinegar on a regular basis (god I love a good salad, not to mention tempura dipping sauce), so it's not all bad. Just... a lot.

Wow, at least I know to ignore your advice from now on. I'd rather take the knowledge from a book, that's actually produced some amazing mead in the past, than from the internet that's produced nothing but some YouTube videos and some badly scripted web sites.

You honestly think that mead making has been revolutionized in the past forty years? Everything you just argued was in the book. Literally. You biatch about the scientific method of observation being new. Wow. Literally, wow.

Mental note: this is not the forum for asking for advice, at all.
Sorry to read that you feel slighted by Golddiggies advice/suggestions, personally, having just read it, it seems to me just some good, sensible points raised.

Anyway, some responses from my view.......

1. The yeast you mentioned ? Well if it was a "normal" sachet of wine yeast, then there's every likelihood it was fine. "They" are obliged to put "use by" dates on these things as they're classed as food products. The yeast is packed dry, often in neutral conditions, hence if you're at all concerned about one that is out of date, just make a yeast starter with it, if it starts foaming etc, then it's fine.

2. The addition of bread yeast, apart from it's use in the JAO recipe, is normally a non-starter, as it produces a huge amount of gas/foam and usually poops out at a lower alcohol level than normal. Though it's often used after it's been boiled in water to kill off any of it's fermenting ability, but added as nutrient.

3. The suggestion of using a hydrometer (from the book or gotmead ?) is good, as airlock bubble rate is a poor guide as to the state of the fermentation.

4. Yes, techniques have indeed changed, as there is now a lot more accurate info about how to manage a ferment, rather than the, seemingly, hit and miss methods of past times. Things like the types of yeast to get a certain (and consistently repeatable) result, staggered nutrient addition, aeration to a certain point/stage, among many. Not forgetting the effect of the amount of honey per gallon is likely to have on the yeast and nutrition regimes.

5. Hygiene suggestions haven't changed all that much, but the materials used have. The need to sanitise everything is paramount as a dilute honey mixture is the ideal medium for some wild yeast/fungi and other bacteria to thrive. Hence if the hygiene was carried out correctly as malkore pointed out, it was probably the acidity of carbonic (or another) acid generated by the ferment.

6. The rhubarb juice probably hasn't caused any problem, though it would depend on how much juice is used in the must, as to whether you'll be able to taste it or not. It is, as mutedog mentioned, quite acidic on it's own.

Finally, there is a lot of older information out there, in books etc, the only relatively up to date stuff I have is Ken Schramms book, "The Compleat Mead Maker", all of the other ones are out of print editions collected from various "used book" sources.

I do hope that you succeed as it'd be a shame if it didn't finish. Though in truth, if it did transpire that your batch is infected, it's transition to a honey vinegar isn't bad, just that you'd be safer not using any of the brewing jars, buckets etc as it's quite hard to get rid of acetobacter once it's present.

Good luck with your efforts and please try to locate a cheap hydrometer (normal wine making type) as it will let you know when the ferment has finished (don't believe that it's done just because it starts to clear etc). Bottling an unfinished ferment, however clear, is rather dangerous, as the bottles can become "bottle bombs", unless you've bottled in champagne or sparkling wine bottles and used the appropriate stoppers and wire cages etc.

Hope that helps some. There is good info here, it's quite a busy forum, though it's fair to point out that gotmead is just about the only one dedicated almost entirely to meads (and a lot of the gotmead troops also post here as well, me included).

regards

fatbloke

p.s. Oh and if/when you can confirm that the ferment has finished, it's entirely possible that the resulting brew will taste bloody horrible. that's often the case with meads, but it's still advisable to get to the end point of having a stable and clear product. Because meads are strange beasts, they often taste hideous when young, but some of the apparent "faults" with it, disappear after a period of ageing (I prefer to age mine in bulk, not in bottles). I tend to age mine for a minimum of 12 months, but it's entirely possible that you might get a drinkable mead in 6 months, or at the other extreme, a number of years (I've read that if it's not good in 7 to 8 years then it's not going to improve any after that).
 
Unless there is alcohol, and then acetero bacteria took hold, then the mead isn't vinegar. Vinegar is made when acetero bacter are introduced (usually by fruit flies unless you add a mother) and the bacteria feeds on the alcohol and produces vinegar.

Right now, I think you're tasting a very young dry mead with some acid from the rhubarb. If you buy a hydrometer, I'd think you'd find that the fermentation has gone dry or nearly dry. Patience is rewarded, and leaving it be is probably the best course.

I'd suggest keeping the headspace to a minimum and waiting until the mead is clear before doing anything else, except maybe taking a hydrometer reading.

I'm sorry you didn't like the responses you got here. That's a shame because there is some very good advice to be had, and we're all nice people.
 
yep - usually Acetobacter is pretty obvious... It makes a thin gummy film on top of the wine that would remind you of dried out rubber cement... When you swirl it around - that disk will kinda dislodge and sink a bit... but it stays intact in a disk.....

It also smells strongly of Vinegar and has the specific vinegar flavor... just like a bottle of vinegar out of the store.

So... I second the motion that it's just too young and you should let it sit. Think... The mead making instructions of yore generally allowed 5-10 years for bulk aging, then another 5-10 years of aging in bottles before it was drunk.... so modern advancements in yeast and nutrition that allow for *Only* 1 year of bulk aging are way ahead of the game....

Thanks
 
Wow, at least I know to ignore your advice from now on. I'd rather take the knowledge from a book, that's actually produced some amazing mead in the past, than from the internet that's produced nothing but some YouTube videos and some badly scripted web sites.

You honestly think that mead making has been revolutionized in the past forty years? Everything you just argued was in the book. Literally. You biatch about the scientific method of observation being new. Wow. Literally, wow.

Mental note: this is not the forum for asking for advice, at all.

I just actually read through this. Since you know more about mead than we do, I guess you won't bother to read this post.

But we have some meadmakers on this forum who you may of heard of, and one in fact has written "the book" on meadmaking. So before you start being a jerk to people trying to help you, maybe you should think before you type.

But if you like books better than this forum, Ken Schramm's book is available for purchase on Amazon and it's definitely a good read. I'd rather just ask him than go dig out the book every time I have questions, though.
 
Wow, at least I know to ignore your advice from now on. I'd rather take the knowledge from a book, that's actually produced some amazing mead in the past, than from the internet that's produced nothing but some YouTube videos and some badly scripted web sites.

You honestly think that mead making has been revolutionized in the past forty years? Everything you just argued was in the book. Literally. You biatch about the scientific method of observation being new. Wow. Literally, wow.

Mental note: this is not the forum for asking for advice, at all.

You had a golden opportunity to learn a great deal about mead from a lot of good people and a very good website, but it seems that you blew it. I kind of feel bad for you....but not too much. Carry on.
 
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