A flat tire killed my yeast?

I started a White Labs WLP001 starter yesterday at noon. Placed the Ehrlenmeyer flask on the stir plate and got the vortex moving.

This morning, absolutely no bubbling, no krausen... nothing. Dead flat liquid.

Last week, right after I purchased this yeast from my LHBS, I got a flat tire. Long story short, the jack broke (never thought that could happen!) and I spent about two hours on a hot back road in Connecticut.

Air temp was in the 80's and my yeast vial was sitting in a cardboard box in the back seat along with all my grains and DME. Had to bum a ride to a local gas station to borrow a jack.

No idea what the inside temp was, but I'm guessing about 95-100.

Is that enough exposure to kill a vial of WLP001?

You gotta check the gravity of the starter to know anything for certain.

160 won't kill yeast. That aint it.

Agree. I'll do that. But, despite the home brewer mantra (RDWHAHB) I'd expect SOME visual evidence of fermentation... or the beginnings of fermentation with a yeast like this after 16 hours on a stir plate. Yes?

Check the gravity of the starter. I've had starters finish in 12-18 hours, depending on the yeast age on the stirplate.

mttaylor1066 said:

Agree. I'll do that. But, despite the home brewer mantra (RDWHAHB) I'd expect SOME visual evidence of fermentation... or the beginnings of fermentation with a yeast like this after 16 hours on a stir plate. Yes?

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If the starter was constantly agitated from the stir plate, thus constantly off-gassing, what sign of fermentation do you expect to see amidst all that?

The only sign of fermentation I've ever seen from a constantly stirred starter is turning it off and seeing a thicker cake.

First time with stir plate... but my expectation was to see some krausen crawling up the edge or some bubbling, CO2 production or noticeable color change even with constant agitation.

Also, turning off the stir plate and letting the liquid sit for an hour... no bubbling, no bubble colonies on the surface, no cake formation on the bottom... nothing.

See this Flickr photo of WLP001 on a stir plate: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75742922@N00/5642609497/

Also first time with WLP001 which may also contribute to my excessive worrying... if this were Wyeast 1056 I'd know where I stand.

mttaylor1066 said:

Also first time with WLP001 which may also contribute to my excessive worrying... if this were Wyeast 1056 I'd know where I stand.

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Same strain, isn't it?

cheezydemon3 said:

160 won't kill yeast. That aint it.

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Won't kill dry yeast or yeast spores, but liquid yeasts are more fragile.

OP - when you make a starter, yeast are multiplying. In that phase, they are producing very little CO2.

I have had starters that I thought did nothing. I concluded that the active fermentation in the starter happened overnight while I was asleep.

I pitched them and got fermentation in the wort quickly.

As said take a gravity reading that will tell everything.

I doubt that it got hot enough to kill the yeast.

Just checked my gravity... 24 hours later the starter is actually HEAVIER than than OG... perhaps that is because of the inactive yeast slurry?

This seems like solid proof that I have an unviable yeast starter.

Am I wrong, forum yeast mavens?

Guess they might have been dead before the flat tire.....or maybe it got a LOT hotter than 95F

How old was the yeast to start with... if it is old there may not be a large % viable cells left with or without the heat exposure, and as cheezy said, yeast/molds in general are quite hardy creatures. Id give it some time on the stir plate and you may have to chill and build up another starter to get a good quantity of yeast going.

No-one here has mentioned Light exposure, but if your vial was exposed to lots of light as well as heat... I'd call it a day and reach for some dry yeast if you have it. Otherwise it's back to the LHBS for you. -Bummer I know ;-)

I've got to head up that way any way... so it's not a big deal to stop by the LHBS. What does bum me out is the lost day of brewing. I've got a new kettle, a new banjo burner, a new wort chiller and aeration wand to play with!

Label says "best before Sep-24-12"... is that old for White Labs? This would have been the first time with White Labs for me.

muthafuggle said:

No-one here has mentioned Light exposure, but if your vial was exposed to lots of light as well as heat... I'd call it a day and reach for some dry yeast if you have it. Otherwise it's back to the LHBS for you. -Bummer I know ;-)

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Sunlight? Color me skeptical.

The starter shouldn't have a higher OG than when you initially put it into the flask, if it does, you've measured wrong at some point. At worst it would be the same OG.

I tend to get a tiny bit of foam in the dimpled vortex, and that's it.

mttaylor1066 said:

I've got to head up that way any way... so it's not a big deal to stop by the LHBS. What does bum me out is the lost day of brewing. I've got a new kettle, a new banjo burner, a new wort chiller and aeration wand to play with!

Label says "best before Sep-24-12"... is that old for White Labs? This would have been the first time with White Labs for me.

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it's almost "expired" which means low viability

that combined with some high temps may have reduced the cell count even further

since it's only been 24hours or so i'd leave it on there and give it some more time

Honestly, when im doing a step starter i usually go about 36 hours on the stir plate for my first starter, since im usually using old yeast ive saved from previous batches, then time my 2nd starter for like 18-24 hours before pitch. Do what you do but its hard to stomach not using the good stuff, expensive stuff, when you already have it.

An active starter on a stir plate will also show little tiny bubbles swirling around. I usually have to hold a flashlight at a parallel angle to see.

iaefebs said:

An active starter on a stir plate will also show little tiny bubbles swirling around. I usually have to hold a flashlight at a parallel angle to see.

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This is what I experience.

What I would do now is to make alternative plans - hit the LHBS for more yeast but also let the starter go for a while longer. If there are a few yeast cells still alive they will propagate.

I do starters from just 5 ml of frozen yeast.

Thanks for all the advice and hand-holding, guys.

I bought another vial of WLP001, same expiry date but different lot #. (Yes, September 24th does seem a bit short to me.) I brought it (almost) right home, keeping it cool next to a chilly bomber of Green Flash IPA that I purchased at the liquor store right next door to my LHBS.

Cooked up some new starter wort, measured the OG TWICE with two different hydrometers (came to 1.055 for both readings, a wee heavy for a starter wort but what the heck...). Back in the sanitized Ehrlenmeyer and on the stir plate.

-- This new starter has no bubbling (OK, maybe I'm learning something about stir plates here)
-- But did have a dramatic color change at the two hour mark. (Whew, finally something to ease my worried mind!)
-- I won't bother checking gravity until 24 hours (6 pm Saturday) but if this ain't working, the problem lies with the brewer... not the yeast.

I decanted the original starter into a sanitized glass bowl, covered it with Saran Wrap and left it on the counter overnight. This morning, it has some krausening and now has a color change. I guess not all the yeasties were killed off after all!

I placed the original starter in the fridge. After 4 hours of chilling, I can see a thin yeast cake.

QUESTION: Do I add the old starter to the brewing wort ALONG WITH my new yeast culture... or am I adding stressed yeast that will affect my fermentation and flavor profile?

-- This new starter has no bubbling (OK, maybe I'm learning something about stir plates here)
-- But did have a dramatic color change at the two hour mark. (Whew, finally something to ease my worried mind!)
-- I won't bother checking gravity until 24 hours (6 pm Saturday) but if this ain't working, the problem lies with the brewer... not the yeast.

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On a stir plate I usually get no bubbling or very minimal bubbling. The color change is what is the most prominent thing that lets me know that it is working. If you are getting that color change you are good.

If it was me, I would finish off the original starter, crash it, decant it, and put it back into the sanitized vial then store it in the fridge for your next batch. Remember to pull it a day earlier than normal and kick a new starter from it. So far I have had great luck with storing them for months as long as I make a good starter prior to use. My last 3 brews have been with yeast that was split off from the original starter then stored.

I am not sure how many generations will be good, but as long as my starter looks good, and the yeast cake in the fermenter drops into a nice tight cake, beers taste good.... I'll push it until I see something off. Current popular wisdom on here says about 5 generations so I am watching closely now. I have a few packets of dry 05 in case things don't look right I won't have to abort a brew day.

beergolf said:

On a stir plate I usually get no bubbling or very minimal bubbling.

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So where does the CO2 go with your stir plate? The yeast are eating sugar and excreting gas. You may not see it without light but it is happily bubbling out that CO2.

mttaylor1066 said:

Thanks for all the advice and hand-holding, guys.

I bought another vial of WLP001, same expiry date but different lot #. (Yes, September 24th does seem a bit short to me.)

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FYI that's almost 'expired' yeast and likely to have low viability. It's one of my nitpicks with White labs that they put a "best by" date rather than a manufacturing date on their vials.

mttaylor1066 said:

Cooked up some new starter wort, measured the OG TWICE with two different hydrometers (came to 1.055 for both readings, a wee heavy for a starter wort but what the heck...). Back in the sanitized Ehrlenmeyer and on the stir plate.

-- This new starter has no bubbling (OK, maybe I'm learning something about stir plates here)
-- But did have a dramatic color change at the two hour mark. (Whew, finally something to ease my worried mind!)
-- I won't bother checking gravity until 24 hours (6 pm Saturday) but if this ain't working, the problem lies with the brewer... not the yeast.

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1.055 is rather high for a starter IMHO. I personally like them at 1.030 or sometimes even lower. I often do the first step at 1.020 when doing a starter from washed yeast that's been in the fridge a while. Completely unscientific, but I believe that lower sugars at least initially focuses the yeast more on reproducing than trying to convert sugar to alcohol. I did just pickup the yeast book by Jamil & Chris White so hopefully it will either confirm that theory or set me straight.

I've found WLP001 takes much longer to show a krausen when on my stir plate than Wyeast 1056. No idea why, but I always wait at least 24hrs before I start to worry, then I immediately look for co2 bubbles which absent of krausen or a gravity check are a good indicator.

mttaylor1066 said:

QUESTION: Do I add the old starter to the brewing wort ALONG WITH my new yeast culture... or am I adding stressed yeast that will affect my fermentation and flavor profile?

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I'd keep the original starter & the new starter separate, but that's just my $0.02 and YMMV. You could always wait till the new starter is pitched and then step up the original slurry to a larger starter, finish & wash for future batches.

beergolf said:

On a stir plate I usually get no bubbling or very minimal bubbling. The color change is what is the most prominent thing that lets me know that it is working. If you are getting that color change you are good.

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I've had instances where no color change happened until almost 48hrs on the stir plate, but I could usually see co2 bubbles before then. If it's a fast flocculating yeast you could also simply turn off the stir plate for 15 minutes and look for the start of a yeast cake.

Jukas said:

It's one of my nitpicks with White labs that they put a "best by" date rather than a manufacturing date on their vials.

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White labs manufacture date is 4 months prior to "best by" date. So if the date is September 15th it was bottled on May 15th.

iaefebs said:

White labs manufacture date is 4 months prior to "best by" date.

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That's good to know. I was guessing three.

Why not split your batch and ferment one with each of your starters. At least you might discover a flavor change due to over-stressed yeast.

Just to close the loop on this whole story, I did pitch that 2nd starter and 22 hours later my fermenter is bubbling away. I keep a "control glass" of wort+yeast on the counter, just to observe what might be happening in the fermenter. After 22 hours, there's a great krausen in the glass with some trub and solids settling on the bottom. The color in the glass has changed from SRM 11 to SRM 7.

Exactly what I would expect from pitching a healthy culture.

So, I learned:

-- Starters don't need to look like fermenting beers.
-- Color changes are a good indicator of starter progress
-- WLP001 is a different yeast than 1056 and seems to behave differently in my Ehrlenmeyer flask

Thanks everyone, for the advice! Hopefully this beer (an American pale ale) will turn out. I'm entering it into a local competition, so I'm going to get some independent evaluations.

The 'control glass' has been proven to be nigh on useless. The volume difference means there's virtually zero correlation to the actual fermenter. IMO/IME, you're better off using other methods to know when fermentation has kicked into high gear and has then reduced. IMO/IME, temperature of the fermenting wort/must is the best method. I have a thermowell going into my fermenters that allows me to send a thermocouple into the middle of the fermenter to get a reading. I simply leave the thermocouple in there, with a stopper at the top of it (to prevent outside temperatures influencing the reading). The thermometer connected retains the high and low readings as well as displays the current. So, I KNOW what's going on in there.

Golddiggie said:

The 'control glass' has been proven to be nigh on useless.

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Gold--

I don't use the control glass for any thing other than a "blunder check" for the first few days of fermentation.

If I see sedimentation, krausening and CO2 production in the glass I can reasonably assume I didn't pitch the yeast at a catastrophic temp.

After three days, the glass is useless to me. I drink it.

Golddiggie said:

The 'control glass' has been proven to be nigh on useless.

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Most large scale breweries separate a small control samples for exactly these purposes. Forced attenuation tests in particular are a great diagnostic tool.