Do i need a starter?

Am brewing my first lager in just 24 hours. A Pilsner Urquell clone with an OG of 1.050.
using White LAbs Liquid yeast WLP802 Czeck Budojuvice lager yeast. Do i need to make a starter, and if so, is there enough time to bother if i am brewing in 24 hours?

Starters are not necessarily needed unless you are doing a big brew.

Are they a good idea? I say yes, for a couple reason:
Better yeast count
Positively know your yeast are ready for work.

You can make them the night before and they will be ready for action by pitching time.

24 hours is a little short but better than nothing. While it is true that you don't need a starter, it is highly recommended for all liquid yeast and for lagers in particular. Since lagers are fermented cold, the desirable pitching rate is higher than it is for ales. Using a started will reduce your lag time and help ensure a healthy fermentation.

I'd say go ahead and make a starter, it will help get your yeast off to a good start. In the future, I'd make the starter at least 48 hours in advance.

Dont know about vials but I always make them for smak packs. Took one strain of yeast that I did 5 days to start fermenting in my starter. Would have been one heck of a long time to leave my wort in the primary before getting activity.

I always use vials and always make starters the night before. I think the longest I have had is 10 hours for airlock activity, average is about 5 hours.

Ok, i made the starter. Do i keep it around 70-75f like i do for Ale Starters?

At this point you need to grow as much yeast as you can. You'll be severly, in my humble opinion, underpitching this lager. Especially if you are doing it right and pitching lager fermenting temperture yeast into lager fermentation temperture wort.
At the very least, I would do as you say and start your starter at 70f.

But if it were me then i'd try to postpone my brewing until I had enough healthy yeast to properly ferment by growing the starter or just pitch enough dry lager yeast to do the job.

Good luck

boo boo is right...this is a lager we're talking about, not an ale...you need a hearty population of yeast. I usually see lager starters of 2quarts, or more.

and I believe you keep it cooler, more lager temperature range as to avoid stressing the yeast, and because you want your starter at the same temp as your wort at pitching time.

malkore said:

boo boo is right...this is a lager we're talking about, not an ale...you need a hearty population of yeast. I usually see lager starters of 2quarts, or more.

and I believe you keep it cooler, more lager temperature range as to avoid stressing the yeast, and because you want your starter at the same temp as your wort at pitching time.

Click to expand...

Ok...so if not much is hppening by tomorrow at pitching time, should i chuck the starter and instead just rehydrate and pitch the two 11g packets of dry saflager s23 that i have?
Or pitch the liquid starter AND a packet of saflager s23? Or.....??

GaryA said:

Starters are not necessarily needed unless you are doing a big brew.

Are they a good idea? I say yes, for a couple reason:
Better yeast count
Positively know your yeast are ready for work.

You can make them the night before and they will be ready for action by pitching time.

Click to expand...

It's a lager, dude. He NEEDS a starter. A HUGE one.

There is nothing happening with this starter. Should i just use a couple packets of rehydrated dry yeast instead.....or will this beer just suck without a big starter and i should brew an ale instead?

kenb said:

There is nothing happening with this starter. Should i just use a couple packets of rehydrated dry yeast instead.....or will this beer just suck without a big starter and i should brew an ale instead?

Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't be certain that your starter isn't going. Lagers are bottom fermenting, so you might have some fermentation going on. The other thing with starters is that the point is to reproduce yeast so you have enough. If you have a nice thick blanket of yeast on the bottom, you probably have some fermentation going on. If you take an sg of your starter, you'll know if it fermented or not.

Lagers need big starters, no question at all. I never yeast dry yeast in a lager, so I can't tell you how that would work. I would say that if your yeast isn't ready, then it's best to wait another day to brew.

YooperBrew said:

Well, I wouldn't be certain that your starter isn't going. Lagers are bottom fermenting, so you might have some fermentation going on. The other thing with starters is that the point is to reproduce yeast so you have enough. If you have a nice thick blanket of yeast on the bottom, you probably have some fermentation going on. If you take an sg of your starter, you'll know if it fermented or not.

Lagers need big starters, no question at all. I never yeast dry yeast in a lager, so I can't tell you how that would work. I would say that if your yeast isn't ready, then it's best to wait another day to brew.

Click to expand...

There is trub/yeast on the bottom, but no airlock bubbles..i mean not even if you stare at if for 10 minutes....

kenb said:

There is trub/yeast on the bottom, but no airlock bubbles..i mean not even if you stare at if for 10 minutes....

Click to expand...

But that doesn't mean anything. Take the airlock off, and put some sanitized foil on it so the starter can get some oxygen. Airlock activity really means nothing, especially with lagers.

I think at this point he should just rehydrate the dry yeast and pitch the two of them. Keep the starter going in case your dry don't take off fast enough.

And if it do take off good then just save the starter in the fridge. And you could also freeze the yeast (if done properly) and save it for another days brewing.

Dr Vorlauf said:

Dont know about vials but I always make them for smak packs. Took one strain of yeast that I did 5 days to start fermenting in my starter. Would have been one heck of a long time to leave my wort in the primary before getting activity.

Click to expand...

My LHBS only carries Wyeast, and charges $4.25 or the smaller Propagator packs, and $5.95 for the larger Activator packs. I buy the smaller one, and make starters. Using a home built stir plate, my starters are completely fermented out in 24 hours or less. I make 2 liter starters, and my 5 gallon batches reach final gravity in about 40-48 hours after pitching the starter. I pitched a starter at 4 am this morning, and by the time I checked on it around 9 am, it was at full krausen, and getting a nice steady gas flow through the blow off tube.

boo boo said:

I think at this point he should just rehydrate the dry yeast and pitch the two of them. Keep the starter going in case your dry don't take off fast enough.

And if it do take off good then just save the starter in the fridge. And you could also freeze the yeast (if done properly) and save it for another days brewing.

Click to expand...

I am going to heed that advice. How long with the starter last in the fridge?

Here's my experience with lager starters. Since the starter is made at room temp, the wort is going to contain a LOT of esters, very un-lager like esters. Therefore, you need to cool the starter to 45 or so to let the yeast settle out. You decant that ugly wort and pitch the slurry at 45 and let the batch rise to ferment temp (50 or so). You will get the cleanest lagers this way.

I would rather pitch (underpitch) the smack pack at correct temps than to hurry along a starter in 24 hours and pitch all that estery wort just to get the increased cell count. Its not ideal: plan your lagers well. The truest thing I ever read about lagers was in "desgining great beers"" "it is easier to make a bad lager than a bad ale"