Legal Questions - Large Brew

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underdogadam

underdogadam

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Someone has asked me to brew a special beer for an event of theirs. The bottles will be part of the gift bags for the attendees. It is a corporation, and as far as we see it, they are just buying raw ingredients, paying me something, and i'm donating these bottles to gift bags for non-paying attendees.

Its kind of a high-profile hollywood swank scenario, so it'd be a baller way to get a ball rolling for someone who is looking for some for angel investors for a small startup.

any input would be cool to help do this "legally".

-A

dancing banana for no reason- :ban:
 
You'd have to comply with state law. In some states, it's illegal to give away homebrew or even remove it from the home in which it was brewed!

In Michigan, where I live, it's legal to give homebrew away so that part would be legal. But if you receive ANY compensation, the "gift bags" are selling homebrew, even though the recipients aren't the ones paying you, which is illegal in all states.

A synopsis of CA law is here: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/california

You are allowed to remove beer from your home for competitions, tastings and judgings.
 
side note- they won't actually be paying me. but they might happen to buy me a whoooole bunch of awesome brew equipment... Doing up about 60Gallons. They want 300-350 Wine bottles of homebrew.
 
according to the federal law it is illegal to contract brew, someone paying you to brew their ingredients would count as that in my opinion.
 
Most states have limit on how much you can brew. I think there us a federal limit too. May want to look into that if you are loking to start a large brewing operation.
 
underdogadam said:
side note- they won't actually be paying me. but they might happen to buy me a whoooole bunch of awesome brew equipment... Doing up about 60Gallons. They want 300-350 Wine bottles of homebrew.
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this sounds like a paying job... thus I would say it wouldn't be legal. I wish it was.... it would be great to be able to brew for people!
 
Not my primary area of expertise, but I would be very concerned with them paying you anything. They buy ingredients, and you donate your time and expertise to make those into beer for gift bags, cool. They pay you anything, even if not directly for beer, you will be selling either beer or brewing services. That could be a real problem.

You also want to confirm your state's laws on distribution. There may be issues with general public distribution of homebrew, or rules about giving away beer in general.
 
i know most of us aren't lawyers, i appreciate putting up with the repetition of the same questions... on that note...

say i work for the corporation, and they happen to give me a "bonus" at the end of this contracted job. and i happen to "give" a bottle to all of my co workers as a parting gift.

i feel like i could eventually spin this to sound legal again.
 
Man. You guys are fast, or I have the slowest thumbs in the universe. There were zero replies when i started typing.

But yeah, one thing I am absolutely sure of is that payment in goods, like brew stuff, is still legally payment.
 
If someone from the company helped you brew on their equipment that you are storing at your residence, you would be okay, wouldn't you?
 
There's no legal way to do this and accept something in return, period. Sorry bud, but there's no way to "spin" it. You can call it a "gift" all you want, doesn't make a lick of difference.

Now as to your odds of getting caught and prosecuted? Slim to none. But that doesn't change the legality of the situation.
 
bassmaster911 said:
If someone from the company helped you brew on their equipment that you are storing at your residence, you would be okay, wouldn't you?
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*sigh*

There really are NO loopholes in the law, so it's really a waste of time to even bother.

I just find that it's much easier to avoid these entanglements to begin with if you respect this hobby.

No matter how cool it would be to brew a beer for some "hollywood function" the only way it would be POSSIBLY legal, was if the op paid for ALL the ingredients with HIS OWN MONEY, BREWED ON HIS OWN EWUIPMENT, and DONATED the beer, NOT ACCEPTED EVEN THE BAREST HINT OF A GRATUITY OF ANY KIND.

Even then it STILL might not be legal.

And besides, who truly would be that altruistic?
 
Yep, here we go again. So many perfect citizens come out of the woodwork in this forum. The laws are in place so you're not running an underground brewery operation avoiding taxes (but laws are laws illegal blah blah blah). The ATF/TTB isn't going to swarm in and jail you for brewing up some beer for an event and someone paying for the ingredients/trouble. I haven't been to jail yet... Multiple Sherrifs know of my brewing as well. Now if you were doing this often on a large scale, that's a different story.

Worst case, they bail you out.

Flame on...
 
underdogadam said:
i feel like i could eventually spin this to sound legal again.
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Yeah, I can spin anything to sound legal. That's my job. Doesn't actually make it legal, and more importantly the judge doesn't always agree with me.

Ask yourself if you are comfortable telling the ABC/BATF/IRS/State or Federal prosecutor how legal it sounds, and think again.
 
@ODaniel: Nobody is claiming to be perfect, just saying its not legal. If the OP wants to do it and hope it turns out OK, fine. I speed on the highway. I take the odds I don't get caught. Doesn't make it legal, and I have a pile of tickets to prove it. Sometimes, you get caught.

OP asked is this legal. No. It's not. Will any of us stop him or report him? He's a big boy, he wants to break the law, his call. But if he wants to know if he's breaking the law, yes. End of story.
 
SittingDuck said:
@ODaniel: Nobody is claiming to be perfect, just saying its not legal. If the OP wants to do it and hope it turns out OK, fine. I speed on the highway. I take the odds I don't get caught. Doesn't make it legal, and I have a pile of tickets to prove it. Sometimes, you get caught.

OP asked is this legal. No. It's not. Will any of us stop him or report him? He's a big boy, he wants to break the law, his call. But if he wants to know if he's breaking the law, yes. End of story.
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Ironically I have a fast car and zero tickets :D

That's what I bring up as well. People get all bent out of shape about brewing legalities, yet I know all of those people break other laws. I suppose it's just the hypocrisy that gets to me. Yes, it is illegal, and there is no way around that. It's been established in 100 threads. Like you said, speeding is also illegal. If you go 1mph over the speed limit, a cop isn't going to pull you over. There is a limit so people are driving crazy fast.
 
not trying to be a jerk about this stuff. i'd love to start a nanobrewery, abide by all state laws and do it right. but until i get there, i'd also love to share the brews with as many people as possible. Hoping this could be the one step needed before doing it all real.

always love Revvys 100%. respect.

so i suppose it was more of a moral question all along. and it'll probably be worth it.
 
underdogadam said:
not trying to be a jerk about this stuff. i'd love to start a nanobrewery, abide by all state laws and do it right. but until i get there, i'd also love to share the brews with as many people as possible. Hoping this could be the one step needed before doing it all real.

always love Revvys 100%. respect.

so i suppose it was more of a moral question all along. and it'll probably be worth it.
Click to expand...

Even if I did "provide beer in exchange for goods", and got in trouble for it, it would still be worth it to me and it wouldn't stop me. I have shared my beer with hundreds and hundreds of people (probably over 1000 when I think about it - college parties and family parties). I have a passion for brewing beer and sharing it with people, especially seeing the looks on their faces upon the first taste - the "WOW, this is great!" look. I have also been confronted numerous times about investments. Morally I see nothing wrong with it. It's a law to prevent underground breweries avoiding taxes. You're not trying to do that.
 
If you got caught it might be worth it to you. OP wants to give away beer to encourage investment in a brewery. Good luck getting all the licenses and permits you need to make and sell alcohol with an arrest on your record for illegally making and selling alcohol.
 
ODaniel said:
People get all bent out of shape about brewing legalities, yet I know all of those people break other laws. I suppose it's just the hypocrisy that gets to me.
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Speak for yourself. I don't break ay laws. And you don't have to be a loser goody-two shoes to not be a law breaker.

But that doesn't matter, because I also made clear in one of my posts that the odds of getting caught are zilch. But like Sittingduck said, the OP asked if it was legal, and we told him the truth: it isn't. Stating that fact doesn't speak at all to whether I am a perfect citizen and I'm not trying to be.

As I've had to say before when people like you have tried to belittle me, Revvy and our kind in threads like this: If someone asks whether it is legal or not to sell homebrew, we tell them the truth so that they won't inadvertently find themselves in trouble in the rare chance that they get caught doing something illegal. What they do with that information is their business and I could care less.
 
SittingDuck said:
If you got caught it might be worth it to you. OP wants to give away beer to encourage investment in a brewery. Good luck getting all the licenses and permits you need to make and sell alcohol with an arrest on your record for illegally making and selling alcohol.
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I don't see it being a problem given that you need to have a legit brewery up and capable of running before you can get those licenses anyway. It's basically to make sure you are legit and it's not a scam. When they see everything is proper, I don't think they will think twice, especially if that is the only thing on the record, and you weren't running some big underground operation. You supplied a relatively small amount of beer to an event, so you could start a brewery and start paying them taxes.

Airborneguy said:
Speak for yourself. I don't break ay laws. And you don't have to be a loser goody-two shoes to not be a law breaker.

But that doesn't matter, because I also made clear in one of my posts that the odds of getting caught are zilch. But like Sittingduck said, the OP asked if it was legal, and we told him the truth: it isn't. Stating that fact doesn't speak at all to whether I am a perfect citizen and I'm not trying to be.

As I've had to say before when people like you have tried to belittle me, Revvy and our kind in threads like this: If someone asks whether it is legal or not to sell homebrew, we tell them the truth so that they won't inadvertently find themselves in trouble in the rare chance that they get caught doing something illegal. What they do with that information is their business and I could care less.
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Really? Never gone 1mph over the speed limit? I call bull****. Never crossed the street not at a crosswalk?

Yes it's illegal. We came to that conclusion a long time ago. There is no way around it. However some people act like it's such a terrible crime to get reimbursed for your efforts. I'm not even talking about profit. Did I belittle you? I'm sorry. Would a lollipop make you feel better?

Also, I would like to point out that I am not saying screw laws. My record is clean. If that was my mentality, I would not have a clean record. However, I have been known to jaywalk!
 
I would say go for it....it "might" be illegal but the chances of the DA actually pressing charges is close to zero. I like to see people pushing the envelope on homebrew laws. That is the ONLY way they are going to change in our favor. It exposes how antiquated and outdated many of them are. Most of the positive changes in homebrew law have occured because "people are already doing and have been doing it for decades".
 
Let me start by saying, I have ZERO knowledge about the legality of this. However, you have to think, you brew a large amount of beer that goes out to a large amount of strangers. It only takes one of those strangers to ask questions and then your name gets thrown out there. If you have aspirations of starting a brewery, this will not be your best bet. Don't get me wrong here, I applaud the idea and I'm sure there are enough people on here that would want to live vicariously through you if it "got the ball rolling". If you are looking for feedback on your brew, throw a party or send me a few bottles.
 
ODaniel said:
Ironically I have a fast car and zero tickets :D

That's what I bring up as well. People get all bent out of shape about brewing legalities, yet I know all of those people break other laws. I suppose it's just the hypocrisy that gets to me.
Click to expand...

There is zero hypocrisy in people who break any law answering that yes, it is illegal to do what the op is asking. A serial killer could say "yes, that's illegal" and it wouldn't be hypocritical. It would be honest, and the truth. That's not hypocrisy.
 
discnjh said:
There is zero hypocrisy in people who break any law answering that yes, it is illegal to do what the op is asking. A serial killer could say "yes, that's illegal" and it wouldn't be hypocritical. It would be honest, and the truth. That's not hypocrisy.
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Part of my opinion comes from other identical threads. Yes I agree with what you said, however, certain people go further than stating it is illegal, implying they would never do anything of the sort, when in fact they do.
 
ODaniel said:
. However some people act like it's such a terrible crime to get reimbursed for your efforts.
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That's because it is, in fact, a crime.

And you recognize the difference between capable of operating and operating, right?

You might think it's not a problem and people would be cool with just one little illegal manufacturing and distribution charge, but consider this: if you have a felony, any felony, relates to alcohol or not, you cannot apply to even get a liquor license to sell drinks at a bar in many jurisdictions. Add in a liquor related arrest and many more layers of liscensing and paperwork and see how that works out for you.

Oh, and as far as your argument that this is small time and the law us only there to stop big underground breweries, ask all the guys in jail for a couple ounces of coke or weed how well the, I'm just a little guy, these laws only apply to the big dealers excuse worked out for them. See how the IRS responds when you tell them you only cheated on your taxes a little bit.
 
SittingDuck said:
That's because it is, in fact, a crime.

And you recognize the difference between capable of operating and operating, right?

You might think it's not a problem and people would be cool with just one little illegal manufacturing and distribution charge, but consider this: if you have a felony, any felony, relates to alcohol or not, you cannot apply to even get a liquor license to sell drinks at a bar in many jurisdictions. Add in a liquor related arrest and many more layers of liscensing and paperwork and see how that works out for you.

Oh, and as far as your argument that this is small time and the law us only there to stop big underground breweries, ask all the guys in jail for a couple ounces of coke or weed how well the, I'm just a little guy, these laws only apply to the big dealers excuse worked out for them. See how the IRS responds when you tell them you only cheated on your taxes a little bit.
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While it's a crime, I wouldn't say it is TERRIBLE. That was my point. Coke and Weed are illegal. Beer and homebrewing is legal. Your comparisons don't line up. I could use that and say possession punishment is determined by the amount. Here (and many other places) you can't get arrested for a small amount of weed anymore. It's a citation. Unless you are blatantly selling homebrew, in the highly unlikely event you go to court, I don't think it would be too hard to get out of.
 
This might be one of the funniest "lets make illegal activities seem legal" threads yet.

When your in jail...maybe consider giving the judge a "gift" of a couple thousands and ask him to give you the "gift" of a not guilty...whats the harm?

I used to wonder why the US was rising in the world corruption ranking...these rationales do a lot to help me understand that
 
ODaniel said:
While it's a crime, I wouldn't say it is TERRIBLE. That was my point. Coke and Weed are illegal. Beer and homebrewing is legal. Your comparisons don't line up.
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except that his comparison was weed or coke to selling homebrew. Which is illegal. So yes, comparisons line up. Both are illegal. Your comparison of weed being illegal to beer being legal, on the other hand, is irrelevant to this discussion, which isn't about possessing, drinking or brewing beer, which are the legal aspects of homebrew.
 
Tell them to find a local brewery to sponsor their event. Seriously. The potential legal issues far outweigh the benefits. Plus a small local brewery looking to get their name out may be happy to supply the beer for publicity.

A few years ago a friend asked me to brew beer for a charity event fundraiser. Basically I would brew beer, they would pay me for ingredients and something for my trouble, and the the people at the event get beer. I turned it down because of all the reasons stated above. I suggested for him to contact the local brewery in town. The brewery ended up supplying several kegs of beer for their event free of charge. Win-win-win for everyone
 
ODaniel said:
Yep, here we go again. So many perfect citizens come out of the woodwork in this forum. The laws are in place so you're not running an underground brewery operation avoiding taxes (but laws are laws illegal blah blah blah). The ATF/TTB isn't going to swarm in and jail you for brewing up some beer for an event and someone paying for the ingredients/trouble. I haven't been to jail yet... Multiple Sherrifs know of my brewing as well. Now if you were doing this often on a large scale, that's a different story.

Worst case, they bail you out.

Flame on...
Click to expand...

The last thing the homebrew community needs is people advocating that it is OK to break the law. This is especially true because there are still places were this hobby is illegal and a bunch of people saying its OK to break the law does not reflect the community as a whole in a good light...
 
IffyG said:
The last thing the homebrew community needs is people advocating that it is OK to break the law. This is especially true because there are still places were this hobby is illegal and a bunch of people saying its OK to break the law does not reflect the community as a whole in a good light...
Click to expand...

But what if the law is antiquated, backwards, and lacks common sense? The only way to bring these laws "out" is for them to be exposed by normal, law abiding citizens. Do you really think that people aren't homebrewing in MS and AL because it is "illegal"?
It seems like homebrew law change when someone DOES get in trouble. I am thinking specifically Oregon. They got the law changed in their favor because the antiquated law was shown to be useless....but it took someone to get in trouble before lawmakers took notice.
 
Im sure if you got paid to appear and not to brew it would be fine lol just be sure to bring party favors for everyone.
 

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