Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

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What do you guys think about pressure fermentations? Time for a poll.

  • I've done it and I liked it just fine!

  • I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

  • I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

  • I've never done it, but it is on my list!

  • I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.


Results are only viewable after voting.
I have some of those. I just didn't think of it for a gas line. I removed the gray rubber check valve and used the o-ring. Everything seems good. Gonna test it some more, though.

FYI, I think my other problem with a leaky manifold may have been caused by putting teflon tape on the flared fittings. That's a no no.

Thanks for the help.

No problem man, glad I could help. Yep, you're right about the teflon tape. The two flare surfaces are what actually make the seal. The thread is just a mechanical fastener that provides the force to seal both surfaces together. On my flare connections, I use little nylon washers to eliminate having to torque the connection down excessively. Midwest sells 'em, but they're kinda expensive.

FlareWasher.jpg


http://www.kegkits.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=W-20-12&Category_Code=
 
Woo-hoo! The second brewing of an easy lager is holding at 26.5 psi @55*F after 2 weeks and 2 days on a whole-cake pitch. She started off very slow at 50*F, and I didn't see anything more noticeable than a little psst from the tap connector relief valve for the first week. I pitched the beer in on top of the cake (highly aerated) after the fast chill down to about 45*F. I had my freezer set on 45*F prior a couple of days, but noticed that the night before brewday the ETC read 76*F.

Somehow the sensor got smashed and wasn't letting the Love ETC control the freezer. So, the yeast in just a couple of days went from 45*F to 76*F and then back to 45*F thanks to a spare Ranco (gotta love them). So, now I set the Ranco the night before brewing and what happens... I get up the next morning to a sloshy quart of yeast cake. Seems my new temperature probe's tape got too much condensation from the keg sweating, and so swung into the air. Ok, so now I have to just turn off the freezer and open the door hoping to get close to 45*F (thinking that might help with the beating they have just taken) before I pitched on top of it.

The mash went well, with the exception to lots of stirring from filling from the top. My system just works better with bottom feed to lift the dry stuff up to be stirred easier. I usually just stirred a bit and could feel it was fine, not so with the top fill. Once I was not as worried about dough balls, I started my 2 hour mash schedule at 148*F for the whole two hours with a thin mash almost 2qt/#. Set back, and went on worrying about my yeasts health.

Perfect wort, low eighties efficency, and a nice "hop addition hot break volcano" later... I am pumped to 100% commitment to go ahead and pitch and hope for the best. This was a 12.25 gallon recipe that had top up water to achieve a final batch size of 15 gallons (added pre-boiled/RT water at flame-out). Now I have 1.049 wort, and 15 gallons of it! I recirculate with tap water, while aerating, with a Venturi on the return to kettle. Once I am at tap temps, I swap over to ice water recirculation and drive the wort to 45*F. The wort was frothy like a big mug of rootbeer, so I transferred the whole mess into my fermenter and closed the keg. Attached my spunding valve a full 24 hours later, and had nothing. Pulled the tap relief and pfft. Ok, that makes me feel better... and then the wait.

So, here I am this much later from pitch (and using a pressurized system for Pete's sake) and I have no pressure. So, I leave on the 7th and decide to turn up the ferment to 55*F, and 3 days later I have over 20 psi. Guess it woke up???

Now, we let her go and log when she's done. She's at carbonation pressure and seems to be producing quit a bit of neutral beer smells from the constant hiss you can hear. I think the second I check with no hiss, I will ramp the beer up another 5*F a day to 75*F for 3 days, check the gravity, and start crashing 5*F a day until I get to rest of 35*F for 2 weeks. Then I transfer into serving kegs.:mug:
 
I'm sure it's been talked about somewhere in this thread, but where would I find the posts dealing with exactly how the pressure affects the fermentation, how best to utilize it (pressures, temperatures), and maybe a little of the science behind it?

All this discussion is awesome, but I'd like to learn more about this technique.
 
I'm sure it's been talked about somewhere in this thread, but where would I find the posts dealing with exactly how the pressure affects the fermentation, how best to utilize it (pressures, temperatures), and maybe a little of the science behind it?

It's sprinkled throughout the thread. Here is a post of relevant papers and advantages/disadvantages of the technique.
 
Digging through the thread is the only way really. I do it different every time, but the basics of how it works/why people would use it are easy enough to explain. By fermenting under pressure, you are basically equating your fermenter into a large unitank; as far as how the beer feels about it any ways. The beer will have a higher hydrostatic pressure, the yeast will slow down growth a little bit. This lessened yeast growth is suppose to help with esters and fusel alcohol production, which is why lager yeasts make cleaner tasting beers. I believe pressure raises diacetyl though, or at least faster detection only to be cleaned up faster as well when under pressure. This could be due to the ability to ferment it at slightly higher temperatures without the typical side-effects of doing so when not under pressure. Also, it can give you 100% natural carbonation at the end of your primary fermentation, which I believe gives me a better CO2 bubble. Just from what I witness from my process, which is constantly changing.

I'm looking to do a beer at RT sealed up in a keg under full carbonation level setting of spunding valve. I will pull the relief at the beginning, but will let it vent the rest out as it is built from that point on. I'm trying this easy way to see if it works on a beer I have been crafting for a while. If it tastes good enough to be my house ale, how easy to not have to worry about temperature control so much. We will see.
 
No problem man, glad I could help. Yep, you're right about the teflon tape. The two flare surfaces are what actually make the seal. The thread is just a mechanical fastener that provides the force to seal both surfaces together. On my flare connections, I use little nylon washers to eliminate having to torque the connection down excessively. Midwest sells 'em, but they're kinda expensive.

FlareWasher.jpg


http://www.kegkits.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=W-20-12&Category_Code=

I picked up a couple of those. Everything's looking good and ready for the maiden voyage this Saturday. Gonna brew Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde.

Cheers! Thanks again.:mug:
 
I was getting ready to trim about 3/4" off my sanke dip tube, but part of me doesn't want to do it. I'm planning on running cleaning and sanitizing solutions from my keggle and CFC to the keg and then pushing them out with pressure. I don't want to leave a lot in the keg bottom and then have to disassemble the valve to get the remainder out right before transferring the wort.

If I just draw off some of the yeast cake until the wort is clear, do you think I can forgo cutting the dip tube?

Thanks for the advice. Maiden voyage tomorrow!
 
You don't have to cut the tube. I did and I don't have much to worry about, but it leaves a quart of sediment/liquid behind when emptied. If you left it, you may get more sediment during transfer... but it will only be a little bit more. I want to throw in that I turn my kegs upside-down while connected to the tap connector (but not actually tapped) to empty completely through the gas port (with the check valve removed of course). I do this when sanitizing my kegs. I Star-San about a gallon inside a sealed up keg and then purge with a little CO2. While there is still a bit of CO2 pressure, I turn them upside-down and tap the keg (pull the handle down to activate) then a sneeze of sanitizer comes out leaving nothing in the keg.
 
I'm looking at my spund valve gauge and I see that between 0 -10 psi there are only 7 tick marks. What's with that? How can I set it to 1-2 psi?

I guess I'm thinking I'll hit it with some co2 until I have the readout at the first tick mark and leave it there for most of fermentation.
 
I was re assembling my spund valve (decided to change the layout). The release valve accidentally unscrewed. Spring and ball popped out. I put them back in, but now it leaks.

Was planning on brewing tomorrow. Any tips on how to fix the leak?

I have THIS ONE from Mcamaster.com
 
Are you sure you put it back together right? Also, I couldn't see your link to the McMaster site. I assume you bought a spunding valve that can do both pressure and vacuum control depending on which way you install the ball and spring.
 
Woohoo, I have lift-off from bottle dregs for my PacMan starter. Hopefully I'm brewing tomorrow.
Cheering with you, wortmonger!!
I think you are one of the most inovative personalities on HBT, Unlike some that do a lot of talking and drawing followers. I enjoy your experiments and practical knowledge........
 
Are you sure you put it back together right? Also, I couldn't see your link to the McMaster site. I assume you bought a spunding valve that can do both pressure and vacuum control depending on which way you install the ball and spring.

Here's the link to the relief valve

I put the spring in first, then the ball. Perhaps it goes the other way around?


Cheers, guys! Time for a homebrew.:mug:
 
Finally removed the check ball from the coupler. This was keeping me from transferring. All is well. Doh!
 
sudbuster said:
Cheering with you, wortmonger!!
I think you are one of the most inovative personalities on HBT, Unlike some that do a lot of talking and drawing followers. I enjoy your experiments and practical knowledge........
Thank you for that, I have my own heroes in this forum:rockin:. There are a ton of guys that blow my mind with what they do. Glad I can do what I do, and hope we can all help the subject of this thread go to new heights.

Dgonza9 said:
Finally removed the check ball from the coupler. All is well. Doh!
LOL, sorry to laugh it just brings back memories of my oops in the early days. I would try to rig your system up to not have to go through such small tubing going into your keg from the keggle. I no longer utilize filling my fermenter while it is sealed, as I get much more aeration by using the same hoses and setup as I do while recirculating and chilling.

When I did transfer to a sealed keg, I used 1/2" silicone tubing (for the hot side of my brewery) as the cold side transfer hoses. Since I use a Thrumometer, I had to drop from 1/2" down to 3/8" tubing to use it inline. Before it was in use, I had a nipple and beer-nut attached to the end of one of my 1/2" hoses to connect to the keg connector (elbow in your gut... elbow in your gut... "with both connectors check valves removed" :cross:) to allow transfer while completely sealed.

Like I said, I don't do this anymore so I can see what is going on with fill level and aeration, as well as if I need to pitch a little later. In this case, I remove the unsecured spear assembly, pitch, then close the keg up 100% and start fermentation.
 
I've been interested in fermenting in a sankey for a while. This technique has a lot of appeal to me.

I can't decide wheter to remove the spear and use Derrin's conversion triclover (Lamarguy) or use a modified sankey coupler (Wortmonger).

Wort, how to you easily disassemble the metal stay ring to get the spear out. When I've done it, it was a real PIA. Yuri posted a different ring from McMaster to replace the original that looked like it would be easier to remove, but I can't find that post again. Is that what you're using, or do you just get good at removing/reinserting the original? Reading your cleaning technique, it sounds like you just leave the spear in?
 
I do many different things while cleaning, to change things up and try new things, lol. Usually, I fill my kegs with Oxy or PBW and seal them up completely. Then I let it sit about an hour and turn the keg over for another hour. I then open, empty, and rinse the keg before filling with Star-San. I completely close the keg after I put about 1-2 gallons of Star-San in and let stand the required time. Last comes hooking up my transfer equipment and pushing the sanitizer through the stuff until empty. Now, I am mostly 100% purged so it only requires another shot of CO2 to get me there. I then tip the keg upside down and tap with the tap connector to get out even more sanitizer. I usually put caps on both the beer and gas ports and just pull the tap's pressure relief until it quits sneezing liquid.

As for trying this pressure technique out, using normal keg things and buying a cheap spunding valve would be less expensive. The spunding valve can be used for filling kegs if you ever decided not to pressure ferment later (WortMonger), then you wouldn't have something expensive you don't use (Lamarguy). His setup is cool, but if you are unsure at least mine can be used for something else you would actually need to counter pressure transfer with. I'm just sayin' ;)

I still use the original rings that came with my kegs. I got real fast at opening and closing them while working for a brewery, so it isn't any more hassle than the rings Yuri mentions. I use a very small flat-head screwdriver (like the ones they give out for advertisement with the pocket clip like a pen) to open the rings, and a pair of smooth (no teeth) pliers to re-attach the ring. A little practice goes a long way, and proper placement of the end of the ring will help the next time you need to remove the ring.
 
I'm mashing away but I'm still undecided on how to pitch.

Would it work to pitch rehydrated Nottingham into Wort cooled thru CFC then recirculated back to keggle? Then pump to sanke?

I'm wondering if the pumping process will harm the yeast. The alternative is to remove the sanke valve and ring, which is a pain in the arse. Sorry Wortmonger. Still practicing it.

Thanks for the help.
 
Pitch the yeast in your keggle when at temperature and transfer to the Sanke. I have done this many times with great success. Just make sure you don't have any check valves in your tap connector *******!!! LOL, JK, Rock this beeiatch! Make it submit! I would make sure and have it aerated prior to transferring to fermenter though. Let us know about your progress too. Can't wait to hear your retort ;) and you know you're not a ******* right???
 
Pitch the yeast in your keggle when at temperature and transfer to the Sanke. I have done this many times with great success. Just make sure you don't have any check valves in your tap connector *******!!! LOL, JK, Rock this beeiatch! Make it submit! I would make sure and have it aerated prior to transferring to fermenter though. Let us know about your progress too. Can't wait to hear your retort ;) and you know you're not a ******* right???

Well, beer is kegged. I just loved the process! In the end I took off the sanke valve and poured in the rehydrated yeast. My CFC was bringing the wort down to 62 in one pass. But recirculating it to a hot keggle was taking FOREVER!

I've got the spund valve open and I'm excited to see how it goes.

As for being a *******, well, I'm resigned to the fact that no amount of planning on my part seems to prevent minor screw ups and repeated trips to the hardware store, etc. But I learn best by making mistakes, as many of us do. As long as I'm willing to deal with my mistakes, there's not much I can't learn to do in the end. I'm glad the fear of screw ups didn't stop me. Just last night I was sitting around at almost midnight. I couldn't transfer to my sanke, my new inline injection system was leaking and I couldn't find the clamps I'd just bought!

Fast forward a bit and my system was performing flawlessly. Closed system is really a beautiful thing to watch. No more awkwardly lugging around carboys, airlocks, spraying everything with star san, rinsing, spills, blow off tubes. Everything just seems so neat and elegant this way.

Hope the beer turns out. Had a spot of trouble during mashing with some hot spots. My thermometer bounced around a lot when I stirred. We'll see.

Thanks to everyone for posting their ideas. I'm toasting to Wortmonger right now for his insightful concept and lucid write up.

Cheers!:mug:
 
Awesome news! Glad it worked out for you. So, you couldn't get a faster drop in temperature recycling back into the kettle? I like to do this because it gets the whole kettle down faster over-all. Oh well, many ways to skin a cat ;). I am so glad everything is going so well for you with this. I look forward for updates on your process. Cheers!
 
I'm currently cold crashing my IPA and preparing for my next brew, finally a lager. I'm going to use Wyeast's Bavarian Lager yeast for a black lager. Has anyone pressure fermented with this yeast or have any suggestions for pressure and temp?

thanks
 
I recently decided not to cut mine. I'm just going to draw some sediment off before transferring. Most of what I read suggests 3/4", though.
 
I wouldn't give it the mark of Abraham ;) Honestly, I wish I hadn't. Try one without cutting the tube first, then see how it goes from there. My fermenter leaves a quart due to the cut tube.
 
I wouldn't give it the mark of Abraham ;) Honestly, I wish I hadn't. Try one without cutting the tube first, then see how it goes from there. My fermenter leaves a quart due to the cut tube.

Now you tell me! Who's the *******?!?! LOL. The good news is that I should be able to report back on the issue in a few weeks.
 
I pitched about 24 hours ago and after leaving the valve open most of the day I just dialed in my spund valve to 7 psi. From what I read, 5-15 is the range to shoot for. I figure I'll dial it up to 10 tomorrow and leave it there for the week.

My question is this. I don't have any ability to crash cool. So after a week, ifI let the pressure rise towards 30, can I still transfer at room temperature?

I'm not sure how to proceed. I was considering getting a keg bucket and some ice to crash cool, but it might be hard to get under the keg now that it's full.

If I keep the pressure at 10-14, can I counterpressure transfer to cornies and then crash cool or will there be too much foam?

Thanks for the info. I'm enjoying this new process.:ban:
 
I would crash cool and transfer as cold as you can get it. Otherwise, there could be foam and more sediment than you would want during the transfer. If it were me, I would definitely try to get it cold for a couple of days prior to doing anything with it. Good God man... buy a dedicated fridge or freezer! Doesn't your delicious beer deserve it??? LOL
 
I wouldn't give it the mark of Abraham ;) Honestly, I wish I hadn't. Try one without cutting the tube first, then see how it goes from there. My fermenter leaves a quart due to the cut tube.

doesn't the dip tube go all the way to the bottom though? There has to be some cuttage just wondering how much of a pile of yeast poop I will have.
 
It's a space issue. I already have taken over a large area with all my tools and now brewing equipment, but I'm looking into it. At worst I may go with putting my fermenting keg in a bucket of ice at the end.

In other news, I had to get a new spund valve as mine was leaking. It's a little over two days since I pitched and there's not much going on. I tried to dial my new spund valve up to 12 and so far it's holding steady at 9psi. I'm a bit concerned about stuck fermentation. Time for a hydrometer sample.
 
Can anyone chime in on a O2 injection question? I made an O2 injection system for use with home depot style tanks. It worked great, but since I didn't much know how much O2 to provide I just turned it up until I could visually see the wort bubbling and left it on the entire transfer, 10 minutes or more. A few other folks have said after the fact that 15 seconds is enough for a 10 gallon batch if the tank is on full blast. Bobby M thought more like one minute is good. What should I shoot for?

Secondly, Bobby M mentioned that he would only do inline inject if he had a medical tank with a regulator that can control flow rate. Can anyone speak to this? I was reluctant to invest the money in that now, plus I'd heard you can't get them filled without a prescription. Any information would be appreciated.
 
Took a hydrometer reading tonight. 1.12. This recipe is a bit of a quaffer, but it seems it's already done in just over 2 days! Keg pressure is at 9psi and no longer rising. I'm going to leave it for the rest of the week and maybe keg it this weekend if I can clear some room in the kegerator. At 9 psi I imagine I can transfer it without crash cooling. Am I wrong?
 
I usually shoot my kettle with about 30 seconds of O2 and then transfer to the fermenter when using just O2. I really like the way I do it now though with just a Venturi and recirculation.

As for transferring warm, or without crash cooling... it isn't going to be clear that is for sure. Don't rush the steps or you will be disappointed. Baby it and treat it right, and it will be good to you. Rush it, and poke it with a stick.... and that bear will eat your face off! I just want you to have a great batch and be happy with it. You really need to get a way to crash cool it, or you need to let it sit an appropriately long time to get that way.
 
Can anyone chime in on a O2 injection question? I made an O2 injection system for use with home depot style tanks. It worked great, but since I didn't much know how much O2 to provide I just turned it up until I could visually see the wort bubbling and left it on the entire transfer, 10 minutes or more. A few other folks have said after the fact that 15 seconds is enough for a 10 gallon batch if the tank is on full blast. Bobby M thought more like one minute is good. What should I shoot for?

Secondly, Bobby M mentioned that he would only do inline inject if he had a medical tank with a regulator that can control flow rate. Can anyone speak to this? I was reluctant to invest the money in that now, plus I'd heard you can't get them filled without a prescription. Any information would be appreciated.

+1- I am building an in line ox system and am wondering the same thing.
Kind of hope that I don't have to buy expensive Ox tanks/regs. I don't understand what would be different about not knowing flow rate w/ in-line vs not. Doesn't make sense.

Was just planning on 1 min or so during the middle of transfer into the fermenter and wait and see how foamy it is or isn't and continue or not.
 
Well, I am far from an expert on over-oxygenation. At the brewery, we turned the O2 on the whole transfer. That was 465 gallons though, and with just enough to see the bubbles in the site-glass. I am sure you would be fine charging just the middle of the run. I get great aeration with a simple Venturi, so I have quit trying to guess with the O2 bottle. You should be fine.
 
I usually shoot my kettle with about 30 seconds of O2 and then transfer to the fermenter when using just O2. I really like the way I do it now though with just a Venturi and recirculation.

As for transferring warm, or without crash cooling... it isn't going to be clear that is for sure. Don't rush the steps or you will be disappointed. Baby it and treat it right, and it will be good to you. Rush it, and poke it with a stick.... and that bear will eat your face off! I just want you to have a great batch and be happy with it. You really need to get a way to crash cool it, or you need to let it sit an appropriately long time to get that way.

I see what you are saying. I'm in no rush, actually. I just thought the crash cool was mostly about the pressure. Obviously I am overlooking yeast flocculation. Now you've got me thinking about getting a fermentation chamber going. Damn this hobby! LOL.

Wortmonger, thanks a ton for answering all these questions. Much Obliged.
 
You might consider using sterile, compressed air with your inline oxygenation setup. I use compressed air exclusively for beers with an OG <= 1.070.

The necessary parts are (1) oil-less compressor, (2) regulator, and (3) inline hepa filter.

Alternatively, you could use an oiled compressor with an inline oil-removal filter.
 
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