it still tastes bad

Flywheel said:

Maybe I missed it reading the entire thread...so sorry if I'm repeating anyone.

The OP says he steeps his grains at 165, I always thought that at higher temps than 160 you get astringent off flavors. Also, you can get the astringent off flavors by squeezing you grains after they have been steeped.

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Yes. This was an issue for me in my first few batches. 165 should be within range, but 155 would be better.

joetothemo said:

Yes. This was an issue for me in my first few batches. 165 should be within range, but 155 would be better.

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I have always steeped at 150, (160 max), never had an issue with astringency. Just thought I throw that out there.

Flywheel said:

I have always steeped at 150, (160 max), never had an issue with astringency. Just thought I throw that out there.

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My LHBS recommends this for steeping: "Submerge the grain socks (they will look like beanbags) under the cold water and turn on the heat. Stirring occasionally, raise the heat to 180 degrees F." <~~~~~~~~~~~~~(!!!!!)

Needless to say, I ignored that part of my instructions. But it took me a few batches to realize 160f was the high end of my tolerance.

Flywheel said:

Maybe I missed it reading the entire thread...so sorry if I'm repeating anyone.

The OP says he steeps his grains at 165, I always thought that at higher temps than 160 you get astringent off flavors. Also, you can get the astringent off flavors by squeezing you grains after they have been steeped.

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Would you also recommend steeeping for less than the recommended 30 minutes?

Wakadaka said:

My batch with muntons was very hazy (probably not from the yeast), very little aroma (again not the yeast), a decent taste, bitter up front, but overly and stranely bitter at the end, a strange bite sort of that goes pretty well with tobacco, but when you are just drinking the beer it isn't something I would describe as pleasant.

Also another thing about it, that I have only found from that batch, is it gives me a very very full feeling in my stomach for about 25 minutes after I drink it, but only sometimes. A friend has commented on that too. It is just an amber ale so its not that heavy, and I have drank a lot of it pretty quickly and haven't had the effect again. I think it might just be my stomachs reaction to yeast, but I don't know.


Sorry if a lot of that is irrelevant, but if thats what yours is like, then it might help out

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that may be it.

togodoug said:

Would you also recommend steeeping for less than the recommended 30 minutes?

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I steep at 155 for 30 minutes (give or take 5 degrees and give or take 5 minutes). The high temp is what can get astringent flavors. But since you were only at 165, I'd only look at steeping temps as a part of what could've gone wrong.

I bottled the batch a week ago. Used a different yeast. It still has some of that same off flavor, not as strong as the last two batches.
BUT I tasted it as I was bottling, poured off a glass and drank it flat after an hour or so in the fridge. After a week in the bottle it taste worse, more of the sour taste. What is the problem???

You shouldn't judge a beer after just 1 week of conditioning. Let the beer sit, at 70 degrees for another 2-3 weeks, and then chill it (if you really can't wait - at least 48 hours). If you chilll it down for 1 or 2 weeks in the fridge, you should have a real good idea what your beer SHOULD taste like.

There's all kinds of funky flavors you're going to taste when a beer is fermenting, and bottling the beer creates a mini-fermentation inside the bottle - with no place for any of the funky flavors or odors to escape.

XXguy said:

You shouldn't judge a beer after just 1 week of conditioning. Let the beer sit, at 70 degrees for another 2-3 weeks, and then chill it (if you really can't wait - at least 48 hours). If you chilll it down for 1 or 2 weeks in the fridge, you should have a real good idea what your beer SHOULD taste like.

There's all kinds of funky flavors you're going to taste when a beer is fermenting, and bottling the beer creates a mini-fermentation inside the bottle - with no place for any of the funky flavors or odors to escape.

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But why, would it taste better at bottling than a week later?

For emphasis...

XXguy said:

There's all kinds of funky flavors you're going to taste when a beer is fermenting, and bottling the beer creates a mini-fermentation inside the bottle - with no place for any of the funky flavors or odors to escape.

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Adding priming sugar re-starts fermentation by giving the remaining yeast something to chew on. By capping the bottles, you keep all the CO2 trapped inside the bottle - eventually working its way down into solution inside the bottle. However, you need to allow the yeast time to go through the mini-fermentation, and then allow the yeast time to clean up all the byproducts of fermentation.

Try looking here if video works better for you.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/blogs/revvy/159-patience-bottle-conditioning.html

togodoug said:

I bottled the batch a week ago. Used a different yeast. It still has some of that same off flavor, not as strong as the last two batches.
BUT I tasted it as I was bottling, poured off a glass and drank it flat after an hour or so in the fridge. After a week in the bottle it taste worse, more of the sour taste. What is the problem???

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Jumping in in the middle of the conversation, but....I've found that warm flat beer just before bottling usually tastes good. But when ever I've put some in the fridge it tastes bad. Cold Flat Beer doesn't taste very good to me.

your pitching too warm. Try cooling to 65F next time.

Darn, I just pitched a batch at 75 degrees.

could be from lack of nutrients from using distilled h2o could be tannins could be your yeast I assume your doing extract kits if your using M&F yeast. I 'd never had any luck with their yeast though my issues were more gravity related. what's your process ?

Just letting it sit in the primary for 3 weeks is probably going to do a lot of good as the yeast finish up everything they can. Do the swamp cooler at 65 and it should be happy as possible.

Aschecte said:

could be from lack of nutrients from using distilled h2o could be tannins could be your yeast I assume your doing extract kits if your using M&F yeast. I 'd never had any luck with their yeast though my issues were more gravity related. what's your process ?

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all extract. I use reverse osmoses and distilled water. I used Safile US-5 yeast this time. Its not AS bad, but not good.
Should I just use like bottled spring or other drinking water? I've been told reverse osmoses is the way to go.

tvtoms said:

Just letting it sit in the primary for 3 weeks is probably going to do a lot of good as the yeast finish up everything they can. Do the swamp cooler at 65 and it should be happy as possible.

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that's what I've done. I'm very frustrated. Any one want to travel about 5,000 and show me what I'm doing wrong?
Am I better off with like bottled spring water, some name brand drinking water, rather than RO or distilled water? is Iodophor Sanitizer instead of One-Step going to save the day? Is it time to just stop drinking beer?

tchuklobrau said:

my first 5 batches had a similar " bitter taste" like what you say. You know it is not from the hops but can pass it off as that to someone who does not know. Is it making the beer undrinkeable or just "off" and "not right" and therefore you want it gone. I changed 3 things in my process and 7 batches after I have not had that taste once.

1. I stopped using my tap water and went to spring water( but you already use this so I doubt that is it).

2. Stopped using just 1step. and added starsan to my brew day.( should be able to get it mine was mailed to me)

3. I learned patience. I used to check gravity and transfer to secondary as soon as the bubbles stopped in airlock. now I w8 2-3 weeks before even checking gravity. I think this was the biggest helper. giving the yeast time to clean up after themselves.(and some would say i need to w8 even longer)

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Any thoughts on bottled spring water as opposed to RO or distilled water? I'm switching to Iodophor Sanitizer but some folks swear One Step is just perfect.

togodoug said:

that's what I've done. I'm very frustrated. Any one want to travel about 5,000 and show me what I'm doing wrong?
Am I better off with like bottled spring water, some name brand drinking water, rather than RO or distilled water? is Iodophor Sanitizer instead of One-Step going to save the day? Is it time to just stop drinking beer?

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It's never time to stop drinking beer. I'm having the same issue as you. 2 batches in and I get that dry, bitter flavor you describe. I've used both white labs yeast and wyeast. I used tap water and spring water. I'm going to change a few things about how I brew to try and solve the problem, maybe this will help you.

1. Use RO water

2. Buy LME from northern brewer instead of bulk extract from my LHBS.

3. No more cold crashing, only extended primary/short secondary

If these steps don't work, I'm going to reach out to some local homebrewers to join in on a brew day and get some help. Nothing can be better than brewing with experienced brewers.

Just like to reiterate......

Fermentation, fermentation, fermentation.

Hell, you have a better chance of having good beer to drink by being sloppy with sanitation than with your ferment.

Every time I talk to a new homebrewer and they have an issue with their beers, I ultimately discover that they are:

1: Pitching too warm and then not using real temperature control

2: Pitching too little yeast and without proper aeration.

3: Using a stupid secondary and using it wrong.

My .02 on this is .... Could be Tannins (dry bitter mouthfeel).

Could be yeast bite.

Are you doing the shoulder pour and reserving that last .25" to 1" of dregs at the bottom of your bottle? That stuff can't find its way into the glass or else you will get some funk in your beer.

Well I've always been taught to never never never use ro or distilled water as there are no nutrients in the water for proper yeast growth. I use bottled spring water as my chlorine levels are to high as well as other issues and I saw a world of flavor difference once I switched. Us-05 is a great yeast by safale another good question what was your OG? possibly there was not a high enough cell count to ferment your beer without making off flavors.

rollinred said:

Two Points

Are you adding water directly from a jug or from tap? Was the jug manufacturer sealed before you poured in?

Are you sanitizing everything before you open it and add it to the wort?

You would be shocked what kinds of things are on the top of these jugs and even yeast packets. Those all must be sanitized before being put in the wort. Keep a spray bottle of sanitizer to spray on your water jug lids before opening, yeast packet, stir paddle, lid, airlock, and everything else after boil. You must spray a good bit of sanitizer on them and let it sit for a minute or so. Even the scissors you cut the yeast packet open with need to be sanitized.

If you are doing that stuff then I will be of no help. Good luck.

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What is a good spray sanitizer?

XXguy said:

The only part I've got to add is that living on an island like Saipan, I'd be wondering if the local "drinking water" place was keeping the Reverse Osmosis system serviced & maintained like they should - ie:changing out filters & membranes at regular intervals.

I'd try getting water from another source - or preboiling the water prior to using it for brewing.

You might want to see how they test the water - if the Water Station is keeping up on stuff, they should be testing the water regularly & replacing the membrane when Total Dissolved Solids start to inch up.

Good luck with it.

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I was stationed in Saipan for a year. It has to be the water. Not good! Only use bottled water. Also are you using a stainless steal kettle?

hopdreams said:

I was stationed in Saipan for a year. It has to be the water. Not good! Only use bottled water. Also are you using a stainless steal kettle?

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I'm using the local bottled water, in the big 5 gal jugs, not tap for the boil, then small jugs of RO water, locally produced.

Aschecte said:

Well I've always been taught to never never never use ro or distilled water as there are no nutrients in the water for proper yeast growth.

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This is just plain false for extract brews. The extract already contains the appropriate minerals for the style. I use RO water all the time, even for AG brews. I just build the water for the style. When brewing Pilsners or Koelsch, I rarely add anything but a little calcium chloride, and have never had any problem with lack of yeast nutrient.

Doug, you pitched at 75*F, what temp did you ferment at? I also agree, that it needs more time. Green beer can taste a little sour, it will mellow with time.

BierHerr said:

This is just plain false for extract brews. The extract already contains the appropriate minerals for the style. I use RO water all the time, even for AG brews. I just build the water for the style. When brewing Pilsners or Koelsch, I rarely add anything but a little calcium chloride, and have never had any problem with lack of yeast nutrient.

Doug, you pitched at 75*F, what temp did you ferment at? I also agree, that it needs more time. Green beer can taste a little sour, it will mellow with time.

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I'm sorry you are kind of correct I'm not trying to be argumentitive as you are correct dme does contain minerals and sugars for yeast to feed on but it will NOT make the yeast grow properly which can cause off flavors please ref John Palmer http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-1.html I was more so getting at not using RO or distilled water as it is too neutral based "bland" "flat" etc and as the op questions the flavor of their beer I suggested this as a possibility.

Palmer said:

If you experience stuck fermentations or low attenuation, and you have eliminated other variables such as: temperature, low pitching rate, poor aeration, poor FAN, age, etc., then lack of necessary minerals may be a significant factor.

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The OP said he has a bitter aftertaste, which is often caused by hard water. He hasn't given us any hydrometer readings, but low attenuation or stuck fermentation doesn't seem to be a problem. I rarely brew extract, but I personally have never had any problems with RO water; it has only improved the taste of my beer.

Star san and RO water in a spray bottle lasts me many months because the PH is so low it doesn't seem to ever go bad. I mixed up 16 ounces of it in February and just used it the other day and it was just right. I tip the fermenter upside down while I reach the spray bottle inside and spray the entire interior, then let it drip for a few minutes while I chill the wort. A little goes a LONG way! So that is a great spray sanitizer.

It's a quality spray bottle I got from midwest supplies and you can dial it to a very fine effective mist. Perfect for every thing. I spray my stirring spoon, my hydrometer, yeast sachets, scissors, fermenter lid, the grommet, the airlock, fill the airlock with star san/water too.. everything that needs it, you can just spray it evenly and not worry.

At bottling time I spray the siphon inside and out, the tubing, the bottling wand, the cleaned bottling bucket and spigot, the fermenter lid, my hands.. everything. IMHO, every equipment kit should come with a spray bottle and small container of star san because it's just SO useful for the entire process and very economical.

BierHerr said:

This is just plain false for extract brews. The extract already contains the appropriate minerals for the style. I use RO water all the time, even for AG brews. I just build the water for the style. When brewing Pilsners or Koelsch, I rarely add anything but a little calcium chloride, and have never had any problem with lack of yeast nutrient.

Doug, you pitched at 75*F, what temp did you ferment at? I also agree, that it needs more time. Green beer can taste a little sour, it will mellow with time.

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I ferment in the mid 60s. I've decided to switch from One step to Iodophor to sanatize.
Would bottled "spring" water be better than RO? It seems to get worse with bottle aging, so is that sanitation issues?

tvtoms said:

Star san and RO water in a spray bottle lasts me many months because the PH is so low it doesn't seem to ever go bad. I mixed up 16 ounces of it in February and just used it the other day and it was just right. I tip the fermenter upside down while I reach the spray bottle inside and spray the entire interior, then let it drip for a few minutes while I chill the wort. A little goes a LONG way! So that is a great spray sanitizer.

It's a quality spray bottle I got from midwest supplies and you can dial it to a very fine effective mist. Perfect for every thing. I spray my stirring spoon, my hydrometer, yeast sachets, scissors, fermenter lid, the grommet, the airlock, fill the airlock with star san/water too.. everything that needs it, you can just spray it evenly and not worry.

At bottling time I spray the siphon inside and out, the tubing, the bottling wand, the cleaned bottling bucket and spigot, the fermenter lid, my hands.. everything. IMHO, every equipment kit should come with a spray bottle and small container of star san because it's just SO useful for the entire process and very economical.

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I've been using One Step. I mix it in the fermenter and use a sponge to wipe down everything, then at bottling I mix up more in the bottling bucket and fill the bottles with it, then spong out the fermentor with it, run it through the syphone and all, then flush it, about 3 gallons of it. I spong every thing off, fermneter and lid, submurge the air lock, sponge off the stiring spoon, scissors, yeast and hops packets, yeast re-hydration pot.
I am next going to use Isophor instead of One Step.

togodoug said:

... It seems to get worse with bottle aging, so is that sanitation issues?

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Seriously - it's NOT going to taste right 1 week in the bottle. Stop freaking out about this mysterious off-taste you think you have & let your beer condition in peace...

If it doesn't taste right at 3 weeks, let it sit for another 6 or 8 weeks. If it still doesn't taste right, maybe, just maybe, you can start to discern if you have a problem with your beer.

I'm not trying to be nasty - but you're tasting a beer that isn't finished, and trying to diagnose why it doesn't taste right. It won't taste right until it's done fermenting. Bottle conditioning is a fermentation process.

Here's an easy rule of thumb: If your beer is still cloudy in the bottle, before you chill it down, it's not even close to being ready to drink.

XXguy said:

Seriously - it's NOT going to taste right 1 week in the bottle. Stop freaking out about this mysterious off-taste you think you have & let your beer condition in peace...

If it doesn't taste right at 3 weeks, let it sit for another 6 or 8 weeks. If it still doesn't taste right, maybe, just maybe, you can start to discern if you have a problem with your beer.

I'm not trying to be nasty - but you're tasting a beer that isn't finished, and trying to diagnose why it doesn't taste right. It won't taste right until it's done fermenting. Bottle conditioning is a fermentation process.

Here's an easy rule of thumb: If your beer is still cloudy in the bottle, before you chill it down, it's not even close to being ready to drink.

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+1 I think we have 11 pages of maybee's when most likely it's just green.

+2^^^

Aschecte said:

+1 I think we have 11 pages of maybee's when most likely it's just green.

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Amen, brother.

togodoug said:

thanks.As to point 3, I've used one 5 oz pack of Muton, could that betoo little and not good yeast?

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Togodoug
Should that be 5 grams not oz? 5 oz is about 140 grams. At 5 oz I'd say you over pitched

Also this thread is now 6 weeks so if you stashed some bottles when first suggested You should be able to rule out under aged or conditioned.

And besides taste, you mentioned it was cloudy. Reasons for this are a unfinished ferment, or really unfloculated yeast. If you are using 5 grams of yeast I wonder if that is under pitched.

ACbrewer said:

Togodoug
Should that be 5 grams not oz? 5 oz is about 140 grams. At 5 oz I'd say you over pitched

Also this thread is now 6 weeks so if you stashed some bottles when first suggested You should be able to rule out under aged or conditioned.

And besides taste, you mentioned it was cloudy. Reasons for this are a unfinished ferment, or really unfloculated yeast. If you are using 5 grams of yeast I wonder if that is under pitched.

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Thanks to all for the advise. I meant 5 gm, not oz. I swithved to I think 9 gm of US-05 but that doesn't seem to have helped. The main reason I'm secptical that its aging is that at bottling is better than a week later for the one batch. For previous batches 4 -5 weeks didn't seem to help at all.

togodoug said:

I've been using One Step. I mix it in the fermenter and use a sponge to wipe down everything, then at bottling I mix up more in the bottling bucket and fill the bottles with it, then spong out the fermentor with it, run it through the syphone and all, then flush it, about 3 gallons of it. I spong every thing off, fermneter and lid, submurge the air lock, sponge off the stiring spoon, scissors, yeast and hops packets, yeast re-hydration pot.
I am next going to use Isophor instead of One Step.

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I'd advise to get rid of the sponge. They harbor billions of bacteria.

cervezarara said:

i'd advise to get rid of the sponge. They harbor billions of bacteria.

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+1,000,000

And the One-Step. Starsan FTW.

cervezarara said:

I'd advise to get rid of the sponge. They harbor billions of bacteria.

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What do you use instead of a sponge? I keep a sponge in the freezer that is only used with oxyclean on buckets/spoons etc..

Here is my info on the aftertaste, as I have it too.

I describe it as a bad bitter, it starts ok, then the after taste is ick. Almost slightly tannin like too..

I've gotten this with extract, and all grain. With Bottled spring water, and with filtered water. Got it doing partial boil on the stove and full electric boil on all grain.

Got it when left in primary over a month, got it after a 3 week primary.

Fermentation is in a 58-60 basement cupboard, so it never gets hot.

My mas temps are good, never high, sometimes low. Gravity all works out great. etc etc etc.

Got it on a pale, an english brown, and an oatmeal to a bit. Liquid yeast, dry yeast.

My only things to try next, better aeration and pitch temp...

I pitch between like 70 and 78 then drop to 58-60.. Think yeast is starting too soon and temp isnt dropping?

Seen a lot of people mention pitch temp should be equal or lower than ferment temp.

So I think that is the main cause of this bitter flavor. Going to pitch at 58 or less and test on a recipe I have already done.