Brettanomyces Lambicus starter

Hi all. Myself and a fellow brewer are working on a beer that will be fermented 100% with Brettanomyces Lambicus yeast. I have never worked with this or other brett yeasts and there is not quite as much common knowledge of the pitch rates or starter sizes/time required to grow it.
So this thread is intended to log and present our experience with it. We are using White Labs 653, which was shipped from White Labs directly on June 23. Last evening I pitched the vial into a 1.5L starter of 1.040 all-malt hopped wort. I intend to add another 2.5L or more after seeing some activity. I'm hoping to pitch a volume of yeast equivalent to what I would use with a cold-pitched lager. I do not want the yeast to be stressed at all, and rather bring out the "friendlier" flavors, if they do exist. The starter will be held at 78F.

I'm not sure if I will be decanting this starter, I just don't know if Brett. will settle out with cold temps quickly. Any advice here would be great.

Anywho, here's a pic at pitch:

If you look through the recipes in saq's profile you will find a couple of all-brett beers he did, in those threads he describes the starters he built up.

Brett yeast won't put on the numbers saccharomyces will in the same volume of starter, and they are slower growing, especially at lower temps. Plan to build up the starter slowly to a large volume and you will be fine.

There are some microbiologists on the forum as well as folks with a lot more experience than myself with brettanomyces, hopefully they will chime in.

Subscribed.

I've done starters with Brett, giving myself a 2-week head start, and have had good results. I've not used B. lambicus, though, so I can't say if it is the same. In my experience, cold crashing for a day or so (siding on longer rather than shorter) will compact the yeast and you can decant. I would allow a day of extra time cold crashing to make sure you can decant without losing too much yeast, probably 2-days total. Again, only my experience here and hopefully others will chime in with some lambicus specific info.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your results with this. Brett brux makes some mighty good beer, imo. I'm sure this will, as well. Got a recipe in mind?

Thanks, yeah I've looked at saq's experiences, and I think he was using wyeast packs? And noted the small cell count of the packs. I'm not sure how white labs compares so I'll just build it up big. I'll also be plating and slanting it.

The recipe hasn't exactly been nailed down yet, but stubbornman and I are thinking all american ingredients. 1.060 gravity or above.

Ive done a couple all Brett L beers and have been a bit dissappointed in them, they all have a nice cherry nose but none of that flavor, adding a bit of lactic acid always seemed to brighten the flavor though, I think my favorite all brett beer is still with the Wyeast Brux strain

good luck

btw, I built up about a 4L starter and fermenation went gangbusters for ~4days then died down and stayed steady

2nd day, certainly getting activity:

I'm just turning the stir plate on for a minute or two whenever I go in there to check on it. It's too powerful to leave on until I get the whole 4 liters in there.

24 hours ago, I made two plates from this starter. Along with it, I plated 3 other saccharomyces strains.
Right now none of the sac strains show any activity, but on the brett lambicus plates its a horror show:
1st plate

2nd plate

ryane said:

Ive done a couple all Brett L beers and have been a bit dissappointed in them, they all have a nice cherry nose but none of that flavor, adding a bit of lactic acid always seemed to brighten the flavor though, I think my favorite all brett beer is still with the Wyeast Brux strain

good luck

btw, I built up about a 4L starter and fermenation went gangbusters for ~4days then died down and stayed steady

Click to expand...

Which company did you get the Lambicus from?

Smells like cherries and feet!!! -- Budzu

JoMarky said:

Which company did you get the Lambicus from?

Click to expand...

it was wyeast

Well I decided against any more wort additions to the starter. The growth I've seen from this is convincing that 1.5 liter is plenty. I've plated it a few times and it will totally overgrow the plate after a couple days. I'm starting to think the only way I can get a sample banked is to keep it in distilled water.

Anyway here's what I saw as I opened the starter to pitch:

So I turned the stirplate on high for a second and stirred up all that goodness:

and the smells that wafted out were amazing! Fruity, bubblegum, marzipan, some other things that I have no reference for. Totally and unexpectedly pleasant.

:rockin:

ryane said:

it was wyeast

Click to expand...

And you've never used the white labs one? I wonder how similar they are..

JoMarky said:

And you've never used the white labs one? I wonder how similar they are..

Click to expand...

Not having used it, but having tasted beers brewed with it, the White Labs Brett L is much more funky/barnyard compared to the more cherry forward Wyeast.

How did the beer turn out?

stubbornman said:

Smells like cherries and feet!!! -- Budzu

Click to expand...

I just made a stout with the 5526 wyeast and that's exactly what i am getting! For those still using this thread in search of anecdotes, I've found the wyeast b. lambicus to take off rather quickly compared to other species and their varieties.

I stepped up the 100 mL yeast into a 500 mL starter at about 82% with 1.040 gravity. Then up to 1500 mL, cold crashed and decocted and did another starter 2L with that yeast. It might've been overkill but I had a powerful starter that has my 7 gallons chugging away still. I sniff the airlocks once a day to enjoy the cherries that are still coming off the brew!

I brewed a 100% brett lambicus blonde ale three weeks ago. Using Wyeast's lambicus blend, I had hoped to get a big cherry pie nose, but the first sample I pulled this morning only has mild cherry flavors and moderate funk. I was planning to add cacao nibs and secondary and try to make a chocolate cherry blonde, but this sample has me questioning my plan. I know adding acid malt to the mash would have helped, but I completely spaced on that. Is there any chance more cherry pie flavor will develop? If it doesn't, what do you think would be some good fruit or spice addition ideas?

Subscribed. I plan on doing the same thing.
What was your grain bill?

TastyAdventure said:

Subscribed. I plan on doing the same thing.
What was your grain bill?

Click to expand...

Me? It was 2:1 2 row to pilsner with about 7% crystal 40 and 15 IBU of Glacier hops at 60 minutes. I wanted something very simple to let the yeast and chocolate shine through.

Im not sure acid malt wouldve been the right move if you were hopibg to get the most from the brett lambicus from wyeast. This would inhibit the lacto from supporting the brett fermentation.

I can offer some knowledge shared with me but keep in mind i am new to brewing. The funk that comes off brett is attributed to (research is lacking) stresses. This could be from any number of causes, one of which is underpitching. I spent 10 days stepping a 100 mL yeast slurry up to 2L before crashing and pitching. So far my minimal experience under pitched brett gives that funk i love and when i pitch a heavy starter i get fruits, including the pineapple im getting off a 2L starter from some crooked stave dregs.

Of course species and strain variations have more to do with determining profiles but im just sharing the environmental conditions in your control.

As far as fruit added, ive been cautioned from tinkering. I dont listen and now have a gose on cayenne pineapple and rye brown ale on blackberries and tart cherries. I dont know if they will work out so id say this: brett will surprise you in flavor shifts. The conditioning process may turn things out well for you. Add fruit either to a small batch or risk having gallons of unpleasant barley pop.

I just pitched WLP653 Brett Lambicus into the Mo Betta Bretta clone recipe I got from "American Sour beers". I probably should have, but I didn't do a starter as I was right at the end of the best before date. It's been 24 hrs and no activity yet... should I be concerned or just let the Brett work?

The recipe includes a small percentage of acidulated malt which I included for the entire mash. Afterwards I read somewhere that you shouldn't add the acid malt until after starch conversion... hope this didn't mess things up. The wort certainly has a noticeable acidity.

Those Brett vials are designed for secondary. They contain very low cell counts. I recommend pitching more yeast and doing a stepped starter next time.

Anyone done a 100% 5526 fermentation?
I'm looking to do one soon.
How long till it was ready to bottle?
Any suggestions?

OK 48 hrs later and I have some activity. I bumped up the heat and that seems to have helped things along. I'm seeing rings of white bubbly foam starting to form and the distinctive smell of sour dairy (I'm assuming from the lacto in the acid malt).

Brett is hardy and will take off at some point if thrown in a beer. The unconverted starches are no problem for the yeast either as it can metabolize a lot of materials sacch yeasts can't touch. The process will be longer to do so however, so you'll have a slightly longer aging process to get the gravity down to a point it's safe to bottle.

What the acid malt would do though is thwart the lactobacilli in the 5526 pack, which is designed to reinforce the brett. whether that has a discernible change in flavor I cannot say.

xico said:

Brett is hardy and will take off at some point if thrown in a beer. The unconverted starches are no problem for the yeast either as it can metabolize a lot of materials sacch yeasts can't touch. The process will be longer to do so however, so you'll have a slightly longer aging process to get the gravity down to a point it's safe to bottle.

What the acid malt would do though is thwart the lactobacilli in the 5526 pack, which is designed to reinforce the brett. whether that has a discernible change in flavor I cannot say.

Click to expand...

There is lacto in a 5526 pack? I thought it was supposed to be a 100% pack of Brett??

TastyAdventure said:

Anyone done a 100% 5526 fermentation?
I'm looking to do one soon.
How long till it was ready to bottle?
Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

I have a 100% 5526 low gravity belgian blonde sitting in primary still. Real weird fruit cocktail flavor when we sampled it.

It's been in primary for a couple months but from what I've heard it should be safe to bottle as soon as gravity stabilizes. Can be as little as 4 weeks.

brwagur said:

I have a 100% 5526 low gravity belgian blonde sitting in primary still. Real weird fruit cocktail flavor when we sampled it.



It's been in primary for a couple months but from what I've heard it should be safe to bottle as soon as gravity stabilizes. Can be as little as 4 weeks.

Click to expand...

Nice. I have a pack ordered

TastyAdventure said:

There is lacto in a 5526 pack? I thought it was supposed to be a 100% pack of Brett??

Click to expand...

I really don't think so. I have a 100% 5526 IPA on tap right now, repitch of a 1 gal batch, neither is sour in any way.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't contain lacto. I'm thinking about adding lacto to my next batch with it, though. It could use a nice tart kick to accent the fruit flavors.

brwagur said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't contain lacto. I'm thinking about adding lacto to my next batch with it, though. It could use a nice tart kick to accent the fruit flavors.

Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking, but I don't want to add any other bugs. Could I just add some Citric acid to bump the acidity? Or would I need that store bought lactic acid?

I'd go with lactic because enough citric acid to do it would I think have negative flavor impact. But I've never tried it. Lactic acid or acid malt (steeped at the end of the mash) have both worked well for me in the past.

Brett can also use lactic acid to produce aromatic esters such as ethyl lactate. (source)

Edit: Also from that article, lactic acid concentrations also cause increases and decreases in other aroma compounds. Basically, lactic acid can change the flavor profile of brett and does so differently for different strains.

youreanimpulse said:

I'd go with lactic because enough citric acid to do it would I think have negative flavor impact. But I've never tried it. Lactic acid or acid malt (steeped at the end of the mash) have both worked well for me in the past.

Click to expand...

Lets say I go with acidulated malt. How much should I add to my grain bill of 5 lbs of 2 row for a 2 gal batch?
(If I want minimal effect on taste but still just enough to compliment the Brett flavors)

Here Oldsock did 3.7%: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/07/100-brett-trois-ipa-recipe.html?m=1

I was going to say 5%. So in your case .2-.25 lb.

Thanks impulse!

No prob, good luck!

youreanimpulse said:

I really don't think so. I have a 100% 5526 IPA on tap right now, repitch of a 1 gal batch, neither is sour in any way.

Click to expand...

I could've sworn it says Brett with lacto isolated from belgium. However, I've been keeping my culture going and haven't purchased another to verify. I also cannot find a label online or find any mention of the contained microbes on the website.

Unless I can find otherwise, it is best to assume there is no lacto.


/////'


Top photo on this site is the label:

http://brewtas.blogspot.com/2012/05/brewday-100-brett-brown-ale.html


I suppose it was misread? None of my other Wyeast bretts mention maintaining lacto cultures unless they contain them (roselare, oud bruin blend, lacto 5535?)

Anyone else, can someone weigh in on this?

TastyAdventure said:

There is lacto in a 5526 pack? I thought it was supposed to be a 100% pack of Brett??

Click to expand...

Yes you are right. I misread the label on the pack I bought "Instructions for Brettanomyces and Lactic acid bacteria cultures" to mean both were together. It seems some labels have that and others do not.

I just bottled my all 5526 stout a couple weeks ago. Taste at racking was a dried fruit blend of esters while the aromas were shifting from cherry pie toward cherry pie-in-the-barn. I've read so many thoughts on tame all brett tastes compared to the funk of mixed fermentations. This is my first brett that isn't mixed but I'd say this is on par with funk of any the others.

Looking over the Brettanomyces Project studies, the few examined had distinctive growth traits and produced varying quantities of chemicals. I suppose it depends on the strain how "clean" or funky an all brett brew can be.