Noob question - why can't I brew JUST with pale malt extract, at least for starters?

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markowe

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OK, where I live (a country in the depths of Eastern Europe) there are no:

- beer kits
- speciality malts/grains of any kind

All we have readily available (apart from as much unmalted barley as you could ever wish for) is a kind of basic liquid pale malt extract sold in jars as a health food. I am almost certain that it is directly analogous to your basic pale malt extract as it is sold by a local brewery as a sideline.

But I've got to start somewhere, I thought I would try brewing that up to see what happens, for starters. Why does nobody brew JUST with basic PM extract? Is is just a taste thing? Will I just get a rather boring beer or is there some other consequence? Would it make sense to add ANYTHING, even say steeping some unmalted toasted barley or something, for taste, rather than just brewing with this on its own?

I understand this type of extract has a relatively high degree of unfermentable sugars - is that another problem? Does sugar actually need to be added too?

And can anyone give me a rough proportion of this extract I would need to make up a 1 gallon batch, or let's say 5 litres? I can't seem to work out the requirements because there are always other grains added. I am guessing something like 900g/2lb, or am I way off the mark there..?
 
I made a beer with just pale malt extract and I believe Centennial hops. It's still in the keg. If you get the balance right and ferment it well, it makes beer. There's nothing particularly special about it, but it doesn't taste bad.
 
there is certainly nothing wrong with just using extract. if that's what you have to work with, then work with it :) biggest problem that i see is in the long run, all your beers will be somewhat similar since they are all made with the same base. but you can deal with that later, for now i would try brewing with it and figuring out how good of a base it is.

toasting some barley and/or some wheat would be one way of getting some different flavors with that. personally i'd save that for my second or third brew, once you've determined what the extract tastes like alone.

you can also try adding spices like coriander, pepper, ginger, etc and/or fruit in secondary (berries, apricots, lemon or orange peel/zest, etc). there are many options for flavoring your beer.

having access to specialty grains will certainly make the beer more interesting. maybe you could get someone to buy some for you the next time they travel abroad?
 
People do often...They're called cooper's or mr beer kits. Just a tin of malt extract either hopped or unhopped and maybe some hops for aroma and flavor. I don't know why you're asking this.

That's basic old brewing.

The trouble is, depending on the kit, or the recipe it can be a pretty one dimensional beer. Not a lot of complexity on the palate. And you're kind of limited to whatever the maltser who created the extract wants it to be. However by including some specialty grains, even something as simple as buying some basic two-row and home roasting it to different grades of darkness and steeping some of that, you've added another layer of flavor to the beer.

When I am formulating any extract recipes I ALWAYS base it around Extralight DME, then I get all my flavor and color complexity from my steeping (or partial mashing) grains. That way you get to use more and varied grains.

For example, let's say you are making an amber ale....If you based it simply around amber extract, you have no complexity from roasted or crystalized grains.....

Staying with my Amber example...The Srm range for that style is SRM: 10 – 17 so if your base extract already puts you into 14 srms, that's your entire beer.

But if your Extralight DME has a color of 5 SRMs, you can really get into the recipe and play around with different combinations of grains until you get into the right color and Og range for the style.

And that will also get you a deeper, more complex flavor.

It's kind of like making model airplanes....remember the "snap together" types that you started out with? You had maybe 8 pieces; 2 body halves two front wings, 2 rear wings and maybe 2 pieces for a cockpit, or two pieces for landing gear...

But if you got one of those 500 piece b52 bomber kits....you had a much more complex final product.
 
Thanks for the pointers. Yeah, I realise I will get SOME sort of beer out of it - the reason I ask though is because looking around you will be very hard-pushed to find a simple recipe using JUST pale LME. There are ALWAYS some speciality grains involved. I will certainly look into getting some more interesting grains brought over. Also, I know of a factory that produces regular malted 2-row for the brewing industry where I can get a huge great sack for a pittance. Then I can use that to roast some smaller batches of my own malts - I believe you can get a lot of different variation this way, there are plenty of recipes floating around.

But for now, I just figured to brew this up and get a basic feel for the process (I have only done a kit or two up till now, following the instructions blindly) - so what sort of extract:water proportions should I be looking at? Is the 2lb or so per gallon about right?
 
People do often...They're called cooper's or mr beer kits. Just a tin of malt extract either hopped or unhopped and maybe some hops for aroma and flavor. I don't know why you're asking this.
i assume he's asking this because no one ever write here on the forum about brewing with extract only. if you were to read the recipes posted here, you would be forgiven for thinking that beer can't be brewed with extract only. markowe, let us know if this is wrong.

regarding adding sugar: depending on your final gravity and the taste of the resulting beer, adding some sugar might be a good idea. but again i'd try to make a batch without any and see how that ends up. you can add sugar to your second batch, if needed.

do you have a hydrometer? that is probably the most important piece of equipment you can acquire. it will answer your question "how much extract should i use?" (answer: use as much as needed to achieve your desired Original Gravity, say 1.045).
 
Also, I know of a factory that produces regular malted 2-row for the brewing industry where I can get a huge great sack for a pittance. Then I can use that to roast some smaller batches of my own malts - I believe you can get a lot of different variation this way, there are plenty of recipes floating around.
if you can get a sack of 2-row then i'd look into all-grain brewing - much more interesting than extracts (or at least you could do a combo, some AG and some extract). this forum also has lot of info about roasting your own grain.

But for now, I just figured to brew this up and get a basic feel for the process
excellent plan.

so what sort of extract:water proportions should I be looking at? Is the 2lb or so per gallon about right?
depends on the extract. if it is indeed similar to "standard" liquid extract, 8 pounds for a 5 gallon batch should is about what you're aiming form. that should give you an OG of 1.058, and depending what yeast you use and how well the fermentation goes you would end up with a beer with 5.5 - 6% alcohol. use less if you don't want a beer that strong, but i wouldn't go much higher than 8 for a first batch. and if your extract is different from "standard" brewing extract (more or less fermentables), then where your beer will end up is anyone's guess.

BTW, are you Serbian, or an expat?
 
I know of a factory that produces regular malted 2-row for the brewing industry where I can get a huge great sack for a pittance. Then I can use that to roast some smaller batches of my own malts - I believe you can get a lot of different variation this way, there are plenty of recipes floating around.

If that's the case you'll be alright.

I just started roasting my own malts last year using THIS guide. He even shows how to make crystals and special b, by partially starting the conversion process and then roasting the grain with the sugars present.

This was medium amber roasted iirc 30 minutes at 350 degrees.

431135_10150586213774067_620469066_9062771_2002253161_n.jpg


That guide also shows you how to make sweetmalts too, not just malts that add color.
 
Many people make SMaSH beer. Single Malt, Single Hop. Nothing wrong with a base malt only beer. It will still be beer and there is a great chance that it will still turn out very tasty, even without crystal malt or roasted malts. Just depends on what YOU like.

BrewerinBR and I made up a SMaSH IPA once with wort from Bells that they said was "only 2-row" and Chinook. Tasted great.

Sometimes simple is better.
 
You can also try making your own specialty malts with the 2-row.
Roasting them for X amount of time for X long will produce different degrees of brown malt that can be used to get new flavors.
You can also try to make your own crystal malt in a similar manner.
Several threads on this.

Also, Do you have a source for hops and yeast?
These are as essential to make beer as grain is.

Edit: looks like I am late to the party with the roasting grain thing
 
i assume he's asking this because no one ever write here on the forum about brewing with extract only. if you were to read the recipes posted here, you would be forgiven for thinking that beer can't be brewed with extract only. markowe, let us know if this is wrong.

regarding adding sugar: depending on your final gravity and the taste of the resulting beer, adding some sugar might be a good idea. but again i'd try to make a batch without any and see how that ends up. you can add sugar to your second batch, if needed.

do you have a hydrometer? that is probably the most important piece of equipment you can acquire. it will answer your question "how much extract should i use?" (answer: use as much as needed to achieve your desired Original Gravity, say 1.045).

You got it in one - not just here on the forum, but just about everywhere. I just can't find a bog-standard "recipe" (yeah, I know it's not rocket science) for a simple brew like I described. I will be using a hydrometer, yes, I have winged it up to now, but sure - it's just, I guess I was after a ballpark figure to aim for, I don't have any idea of what sort of FG to expect or what to start from.

if you can get a sack of 2-row then i'd look into all-grain brewing - much more interesting than extracts (or at least you could do a combo, some AG and some extract). this forum also has lot of info about roasting your own grain.


depends on the extract. if it is indeed similar to "standard" liquid extract, 8 pounds for a 5 gallon batch should is about what you're aiming form. that should give you an OG of 1.058, and depending what yeast you use and how well the fermentation goes you would end up with a beer with 5.5 - 6% alcohol. use less if you don't want a beer that strong, but i wouldn't go much higher than 8 for a first batch. and if your extract is different from "standard" brewing extract (more or less fermentables), then where your beer will end up is anyone's guess.

BTW, are you Serbian, or an expat?

Oh, definitely, down the line I intend to buy a big old sack and roast up what I need - someone else in the thread linked to a site which I have also seen on my travels, with all the instructions you need for making speciality grains. I mean, it's just a case of having an oven thermometer and keeping an eye on things. Though I understand home roasting never quite comes out like the commercially-produced stuff. I am pretty sure I will quickly move on to partial and all-grain very quickly. I just want to get the very basics right and see what my baseline flavour is. Your 8 lb/5 gallons roughly tallies with what I was thinking, but I guess I will go and tinker with one of those brewing calculators. This stuff does give percentages of maltose, dextrose, fructose etc. so that might be another way to get a rough idea.

I am both half-Serbian and Brit expat, work that one out :D

If that's the case you'll be alright.

I just started roasting my own malts last year using THIS guide. He even shows how to make crystals and special b, by partially starting the conversion process and then roasting the grain with the sugars present.

This was medium amber roasted iirc 30 minutes at 350 degrees.

431135_10150586213774067_620469066_9062771_2002253161_n.jpg


That guide also shows you how to make sweetmalts too, not just malts that add color.

*nod*, that's the guide I've seen too, looks all too simple really. Yes, it adds another step to the whole process, but I guess makes it that bit more "your own work". Plus I would just roast up a few kg of several different types, it's not like you have to do it every time.

Many people make SMaSH beer. Single Malt, Single Hop. Nothing wrong with a base malt only beer. It will still be beer and there is a great chance that it will still turn out very tasty, even without crystal malt or roasted malts. Just depends on what YOU like.

BrewerinBR and I made up a SMaSH IPA once with wort from Bells that they said was "only 2-row" and Chinook. Tasted great.

Sometimes simple is better.

Right, I'm sure it can be, and like I say, I want to see what my basic flavour is before I start experimenting with anything more complicated. I know of only a few other people in these parts who have tried brewing with this stuff and the verdict has been inconclusive.

Also, Do you have a source for hops and yeast?
These are as essential to make beer as grain is.

Edit: looks like I am late to the party with the roasting grain thing

The more the merrier :) But I totally agree, I am going to get a 40kg sack of malt in (around $22 ;)) and see what happens. Hmm, I just discovered that they refer to it as "Pilsener malt" - hmm, kind of not surprising as all the beers round here are basically generic European lager-type beers. I am kind of leaning towards British-type ales - another possible problem, not sure how well those Pilsener grains lend themselves to creating different speciality grains.

As for hops and yeast, ha, another good question - yes, I have plenty of yeast brought over, mostly S04, which ought to keep me going. Hops are a little tricky - there used to be great fields of them until the foreign breweries took over and started importing them. I have found hops in the form of tea, which I have already tried in a previous batch and which gave a nice bitterness though were a bit lacking in taste - can't identify them right now. Will probably get those brought over in dry form (can't beat 'em, join 'em). Brewing hops are still sold here, but only in dirty great sacks, costing the earth :)

Thanks for all the tips!
 
There are several recipes that are essentially brewed with just pale malt and light bittering hops. You will end up with something similar to bud light depending on your yeast. If you look at Austin homebrew low cal kit it is pale malt, corn sugar and hops. The popular cream of 3 crops recipe is similar but it has three types of sugars but none of them really add taste. You may even be able to find the other ingredients for the recipe at a grocery story.

If you search for bud light or miller light clones you will find several recipes that are almost entirely pale malt.


If you brewing something that is mostly pale malt I would try to keep the starting gravity below 1.050. the alcohol content will be much more noticeable in a very light tasting beer.
 
There are several recipes that are essentially brewed with just pale malt and light bittering hops. You will end up with something similar to bud light depending on your yeast. If you look at Austin homebrew low cal kit it is pale malt, corn sugar and hops. The popular cream of 3 crops recipe is similar but it has three types of sugars but none of them really add taste. You may even be able to find the other ingredients for the recipe at a grocery story.

If you search for bud light or miller light clones you will find several recipes that are almost entirely pale malt.


If you brewing something that is mostly pale malt I would try to keep the starting gravity below 1.050. the alcohol content will be much more noticeable in a very light tasting beer.

Sounds like a plan, thanks. I imagine that a very light beer will also increase the risk of dodgy/off flavours being noticeable. Well, that's what I want to do though, start as basic as possible so I know all the variables. Now just for my ginger wine and my cider to free up my primaries..!
 
You will end up with something similar to bud light depending on your yeast. If you look at Austin homebrew low cal kit it is pale malt, corn sugar and hops.
i suspect his beer will have more malt flavor that bud light. budweiser is made with a lot of corn adjunct, which adds little taste and lightens the color. going all pale malt will result in a more flavorful and darker beer. throw in some actual hops and you've blown bud light out of the water.
 
i suspect his beer will have more malt flavor that bud light. budweiser is made with a lot of RICE adjunct, which adds little taste and lightens the color. going all pale malt will result in a more flavorful and darker beer. throw in some actual hops and you've blown bud light out of the water.

Fixed it for you.....
 
following. keep us posted on your results. this is a great thread. just follow all the basic rules; sanitize, pitch healthy yeast in good quantities, control your ferment temps, drink everything in one sitting....wait, that's not a rule! :D Looking forward to hearing about this as you go.
 
You might want to check www.brouwland.com too and see if they ship to Serbia. All the grains, extracts, hops and yeast you'd want!

Good luck! :mug:

I had someone else recommend them to me as well. I am just not sure of the viability of having things like grain delivered abroad - postage will double the cost and I am not even sure Customs here will allow "foodstuffs" to be imported. Something I need to check into, but I have already had some yeast go astray before, and haven't tried again since...


following. keep us posted on your results. this is a great thread. just follow all the basic rules; sanitize, pitch healthy yeast in good quantities, control your ferment temps, drink everything in one sitting....wait, that's not a rule! :D Looking forward to hearing about this as you go.

Ha, well, I will probably only do a gallon for starters, so drinking it in one go might be doable, with a friend at least (been a while since I drank a gallon myself, it has to be said :D).

Thanks for all the advice, I WILL come back and update this thread, it's only fair, and will probably need some pointers too. It might take a little while though, I have a load of apples waiting to be turned into cider, and a ginger wine that's no ready for bottles yet. Just planning ahead here - beer is my main interest, this other stuff sort of popped up for seasonal reasons! To be continued...
 
Since hops is a problem you might want to try using some herbs and spices which may be more readily available to you. Check out the book "the home brewers garden" by denis fisher hops has a few functions but certain qualities that the hops imparts to your brew can be approximated such as bittering with endive... hops is relatively new in the history of beer. As to grains, any fermentable sugar will produce beer though the flavors will vary wildly. Since you have a maltster ag is prob your best bet.
 
Since hops is a problem you might want to try using some herbs and spices which may be more readily available to you. Check out the book "the home brewers garden" by denis fisher hops has a few functions but certain qualities that the hops imparts to your brew can be approximated such as bittering with endive... hops is relatively new in the history of beer. As to grains, any fermentable sugar will produce beer though the flavors will vary wildly. Since you have a maltster ag is prob your best bet.

I guess I would like to TRY and get as many "proper" beer ingredients together as possible, including hops, and leave experimenting with herbs and things for later brews. The hops sold here as "tea" are just dried hops basically (I am sure there is some good medicinal reason why you would want to drink that :)), almost certainly the Vojvodina Robusta or Aroma varieties that have been mentioned on the forum here. Just got to figure out what sort of properties they are likely to impart, and what sort of schedule might work.
 
Reading through this thread with only out-of-date memories of the area it seems you have as much an opportunity as a problem. Living in a sea of barley with enough demand to justify selling the industrial beer-like products seems ideal for starting a malt and general beer ingredient cooperative.
 
markowe said:
I guess I would like to TRY and get as many "proper" beer ingredients together as possible, including hops, and leave experimenting with herbs and things for later brews. The hops sold here as "tea" are just dried hops basically (I am sure there is some good medicinal reason why you would want to drink that :)), almost certainly the Vojvodina Robusta or Aroma varieties that have been mentioned on the forum here. Just got to figure out what sort of properties they are likely to impart, and what sort of schedule might work.

I hear ya on experimenting but if you look for "brewing gruit" you will find it's not so much experimenting and a much older more traditional way of brewing. Check out this page:

http://www.gruitale.com/intro_en.htm

Also there is a thread here on the forum:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/gruit-ale-180815/

It has been successfully done so you don't need to start from scratch and may find you already have the ingredients available.
 
I hear ya on experimenting but if you look for "brewing gruit" you will find it's not so much experimenting and a much older more traditional way of brewing. Check out this page:

http://www.gruitale.com/intro_en.htm

Also there is a thread here on the forum:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/gruit-ale-180815/

It has been successfully done so you don't need to start from scratch and may find you already have the ingredients available.

OK, I will definitely look into it! Bog myrtle, mugwort, sweet gale and myrica gale eh? Sounds like it might be fun trying identify some of those round these parts. In fact I can't rule out a visit to a bog :). Mind you, it would be easier if I could find some more everyday herbs that might be sold on the market as herbal teas or whatever. Definitely doable, I will consider it!
 
markowe said:
OK, I will definitely look into it! Bog myrtle, mugwort, sweet gale and myrica gale eh? Sounds like it might be fun trying identify some of those round these parts. In fact I can't rule out a visit to a bog :). Mind you, it would be easier if I could find some more everyday herbs that might be sold on the market as herbal teas or whatever. Definitely doable, I will consider it!

I agree getting beer ingredients would be more desirable but at least there is the possibility of being able to make something tasty without "true" modern ingredients. Most herbs listed for gruit are easily and readily available in health food stores.
 
Reading through this thread with only out-of-date memories of the area it seems you have as much an opportunity as a problem. Living in a sea of barley with enough demand to justify selling the industrial beer-like products seems ideal for starting a malt and general beer ingredient cooperative.

Yeah, I definitely always have an ear open for a business opportunity, I can see where there would be one, I can already think of a few out-of-work brewing technologists I know too. But there must be some reason why there is almost a complete lack of microbreweries round here, since there are a zillion privately-owned wine cellars. Must just be a tradition thing, maybe it's time for a decent local brew - though it's impossible to compete on price with the commercial breweries (Carlsberg and Interbrew-owned) and the cheap bilge they produce, and this is a pretty price-sensitive market. It would have to be a DARN good brew :D. (There are also endless quantities of pumpkins here in autumn, wonder how the local market would react to a decent pumpkin ale...)
 
markowe: it's impossible to compete on price

Well, as the old saw goes if you can't sell the cheapest than all that's left is to sell the best. A little independence, hops, yeast and a lot of grain is a great start for a return to real beer in the grand tradition in which civilization was nurtured.
 
markowe: it's impossible to compete on price

Well, as the old saw goes if you can't sell the cheapest than all that's left is to sell the best. A little independence, hops, yeast and a lot of grain is a great start for a return to real beer in the grand tradition in which civilization was nurtured.

Amen brother!
 
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