Freezing fermentations

I tried the ol' search function, but ther's just too much random data to narrow it down to a reasonable framework.

Anywho, I don't have the refrigeration to make a proper lager, nor am I likely to get it anytime soon. So, with the onset of winter, I was considering doing the ferments in the garage. Unfortunately, the lack of actual climate control means I'll run risks. So, will freezing, or slightly less likely, warming to near 60, be likely to kill a lager yeast?

I'm guessing the "heat" won't kill it, actually, but might freak out the ferment in some fashion. It's the freezing that worries me. Should I just abandon these foolish thoughts and beg my brother in law for a few cubic feet in his extra fridge? Any thoughts?

You could heat the carboy with something like this to keep it from freezing. I think they work best with a temp controller, though.

There are other brands and models out there, this is just an example.

Your yeast won't die if it gets up to 60F. Shoot, it wouldn't die if it got up to 85F, but you wouldn't wind up with the lager you were looking for.

Temperature variations are your biggest problem here. Yeast are happy when temperatures stay fairly constant, and they are unhappy when it doesn't. Unhappy yeast that are actively fermenting tend to make all sorts of things you don't want in a lager, such as diacetyl, phenols, and acetadehyde.

If your garage temperature varies more than about eight degrees over the course of a day, it might not work so well as a fermentation spot. Really, you can probably get away with a larger variation if you insulate your fermenter. However, I would try and work something out with your brother-in-law. I mean, you're making beer. I'm sure he's heard of the stuff, and he might be interested.


TL

i've done 2 lagers so far and have used a cooler filled with water and frozen h2o bottles. kept a relative 50ish temp. i do have a kegerator though for the actual lagering portion though

I have a couple lagers going in my garage right now. I just insulated them well to help keep the temperature from fluxuating too much. The first one turned out great and the second one tasted great when I drew a sample off to check the gravity. I say give it a shot.

If I may be so dense, I'm still wondering...Will a freeze kill yeast?

A freeze may. Refrigerator cold, no. But freeze? maybe to probably depending on how cold.

Yeast propagators freeze yeast for long term storage, so no freezing temps won't kill yeast.
If liquid in a yeast solution freezes, it can crystallize and penetrate the yeast' cell walls. This will kill the yeast, as well as the possibility of damaging your secondary by expansion.
Temperature fluctuation can be limited by bathing the vessel in liquid, preferably glycol (nontoxic antifreeze) or salt water to prevent IT from freezing. Beer freezes at lower temps than pure water, but I would not leave it out there during a long sustained freeze without a small heat source (incandescent bulb in a cardboard box? [gfci necessary near water]).

If you attempt to lager at too warm of temps, you'll just get "steam beer"!

It seems to me that if you put a glass carboy in salt water in freezing temperatures it would be a terrible idea. Wouldn't it work that same way an ice cream machine works. Use ice and salt to lower the freezing temperature. Surrounding the carboy in something that has a lower freezing point wouldnt help much after it transfered its cold temperature to the carboy. It would help but not for too long. But I guess thats only if its as cold as it is here. (snowing currently just a bit) Im just to lazy to click back and see how cold of temp were talking about.

It seems to me that if you put a glass carboy in salt water in freezing temperatures it would be a terrible idea. Wouldn't it work that same way an ice cream machine works. Use ice and salt to lower the freezing temperature. Surrounding the carboy in something that has a lower freezing point wouldnt help much after it transfered its cold temperature to the carboy freezing it. It would help but not for too long. But I guess thats only if its as cold as it is here. (snowing currently just a bit) Im just to lazy to click back and see how cold of temp were talking about.

****ing double post sorry

BuffaloSabresBrewer said:

It seems to me that if you put a glass carboy in salt water in freezing temperatures it would be a terrible idea. Wouldn't it work that same way an ice cream machine works. Use ice and salt to lower the freezing temperature. Surrounding the carboy in something that has a lower freezing point wouldnt help much after it transfered its cold temperature to the carboy freezing it. It would help but not for too long. But I guess thats only if its as cold as it is here. (snowing currently just a bit) Im just to lazy to click back and see how cold of temp were talking about.

Click to expand...

Definitely worth noting!
The idea I'm promoting is to use the liquid mass as a buffer for temperature fluctuations. The fluctuation is far more likely to damage the product than cold temp (so long as the liquid doesn't freeze).

You would definitely need to ensure that it keeps at a minimum of about 30'-32'F.

It seems like a carboy heat belt would work best. Yoppers lagering technique is also worth mentioning. You may have to scale it up a bit more because you ambient temp is probably going to be a living space rather than a basement. If you have a basement then thats probably you best option with a pretty consistent temperature. Your yeasties will thank you for less fluctuation.

BuffaloSabresBrewer said:

It seems to me that if you put a glass carboy in salt water in freezing temperatures it would be a terrible idea. Wouldn't it work that same way an ice cream machine works. Use ice and salt to lower the freezing temperature. Surrounding the carboy in something that has a lower freezing point wouldnt help much after it transfered its cold temperature to the carboy freezing it. It would help but not for too long. But I guess thats only if its as cold as it is here. (snowing currently just a bit) Im just to lazy to click back and see how cold of temp were talking about.

Click to expand...

Lowering the freezing point of the bath is not going to make the beer more likely to freeze. It just means that the bath itself won't freeze, which is pretty good since it could break the carboy if it did. The point is to tame down the temp fluccuations. There is no difference between the temp of pure water and salt water in a given garage at a given time. The difference is one will freeze at 32F and the other won't freeze till it hits a lower temp. The heat transfer properties are virtually the same.

Agreed really not a terrible idea but not a definite fix but it all depends on how long its below freezing. If it stayed below freezing it would be delaying the inevitable.

So, it seems that yeast in a liquid at or near freezing would likely survive the experience. Nor would it ruin a beer. Yeast in frozen liquid would likely NOT survive the experience.

Could freezing be used to halt a fermentation? I am, admittedly, having a difficult time imaging a situation in which I'd like LESS alcohol in my beverages, but it might be a useful technique for a home winemaker that wants to halt a ferment...

I would say that if you built an insulated box for your fermenter vessel with one side open against an interior wall with the fermentor as high off the floor as possible, you shold be fine. I'm in northern detroit and my garage is not insulated but it is very rare to have something freeze in my garage. I have exposed water pipes near the floor and we keep soda and beer on the floor as well. My garage goes from very cold at night to fairly warm and damp during the day.

Let us know how it works out.

I didn't know that John Palmer was so poetic, but here's his take on frozen lager.
You can find more info at: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-6.html

10.6 Aagh! It Froze!
By the way, what if your beer freezes during lagering?? Horrors!!Well, it happened to me. Let me tell you about my first lager...


'Twas a few weeks before Christmas and all around the house, not an airlock was bubbling, in spite of myself. My Vienna was lagering in the refrigerator out there, with hopes that a truly fine beer, I soon could share.

The Airstat* was useless, 32F couldn't be set, so I turned the 'fridge to Low, to see what I would get. On Monday it was 40, On Tuesday lower yet, On Wednesday morning I tweaked it, seemed like a good bet.

Later that day when I walked out to the shed, my nose gave me pause, it filled me with dread. In through the door I hurried and dashed, when I tripped on the stoop and fell with a crash. Everything looked ordinary, well what do you know, but just in case, I opened the 'fridge slow.

When what to my wondering eyes should appear, My carboy was FROZEN, I had made Ice beer! My first thought was tragic, I was worried a bit, I sat there and pondered, then muttered, "Aw Sh##!"

More rapid than eagles, my curses they came, and I gestured and shouted and called the fridge bad names. "You Bastard! How could you! You are surely to blame! You're worthless, You're scrap metal, not worth the electric bills I'm paying! To the end of the driveway, with one little call, They will haul you away, haul away, haul away all!"

Unlike dry leaves that before the hurricane fly, when brewers meet adversity, they'll give it another try. So back to the house, wondering just what to do, five gallons of frozen beer, a frozen airlock too. And then in a twinkling, I felt like a goof, the carboy wasn't broken, the beer would probably pull through.

I returned to the shed, after hurrying 'round, gathering cleaning supplies, towels, whatever could be found. I'd changed my clothes, having come home from work, I knew if I stained them, my wife would go berserk. I was loaded with paper towels, I knew just what to do, I had iodophor-ed water and a heating pad too.

The carboy, how it twinkled! I knew to be wary, the bottom wasn't frozen but the ice on top was scary! That bastard refridge, it had laid me low, trying to kill my beer under a layer of snow. I cleaned off the top and washed off the sides, picked up a block of ice and threw it outside. I couldn't find the airlock, it was under the shelf, and I laughed when I saw it, in spite of myself.

The work of a half hour out there in the shed, soon gave me to know, I had nothing to dread. The heating pad was working, the ice fell back in, I re-sanitized the airlock, I knew where it had been. Not an Eisbock, but a Vienna I chose, it was the end of the crisis of the lager that froze.

I sprang to my feet, to my wife gave a whistle, and we went off to bed under the down comforter to wrestle. But the 'fridge heard me exclaim as I walked out of sight, "Try that again, you bastard, and you'll be recycled all right!"