Electric ball valve actuators

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

TheFlyingBeer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
408
Reaction score
25
Location
Catonsville
So I have found a cheap source (in China :rolleyes:) for the 3/4" 3pc sanitary ball valves I would like to make part of my new eHerms setup. I am looking to automate much of the process but am having trouble finding suitable actuators.

The valves I am looking at: H3SC 3-pc sanitary. I was quoted each at $32 which is amazing...

They have an ISO 5211 pad but I can't find any cheap electric actuators. I know several other brewers use some KLD valves which look like the perfect actuator for me, but they will only mount to their own valves(?) as far as I know.

I have looked high and low and considered using zone valves for radiant water heating systems but I would have to kludge some kind of mount to the valve.

Any help?
 
Since no one seams to be replying I'll throw my 2 cents in.

If you'd like to buy, here are some ball valves for about 50 bucks a pop (probably most cost and time effective)

Anyone had success making their own actuators or adapting another product to work for brewing?

If your interested in making one I'd suggest first figuring out the torque needed to turning the handle, which you can seen how to do here. Then figure out how to turn it: servo, bipolar step motor, what have you. While it would be an awesome DIY and could be cool if you had a unique valve (such as a butterfly valve) I personally would use the the pre-made ones. But if your up for some work I see no reason why it couldn't work.
 
Since no one seams to be replying I'll throw my 2 cents in.

If you'd like to buy, here are some ball valves for about 50 bucks a pop (probably most cost and time effective)

Thanks for some input. I have had a close eye on the valves you posted made from a Chinese group called KLD. The actuators on those seems like a perfect fit, I just wish they had a ISO mounting pad to them. Might order 1 anyways to see what I can make from it, if I fail at least I have 1 actuated valve:D.

I had previously reviewed the torques for several valves and was thinking down the path of using a 12v windshield wiper motor to actuate them. As you stated though, building my own would not be nearly as time effective!
 
im a hvac specialist (controls) and i use valve actuators all the time. When i get my brew stand fully built im defiently going to be taking parts off my truck. We use control valves from semiens, honeywell, TAC, belimo, KMC...Heres something you could be interested in. Theres a bunch of possibilities for this. So many different types of valves can use 0-10 vdc, 24vac, or 120 vac. Since i have the software to use all of these i can use a floating point meaning i can control the posistion and stop it where i want. In your case i would use a 2 way (on/off) valve. You can use 120 volt or if you dont want to have that kind of voltage at your kettle, use a 120 to 24 volt transformer. If you know how to wire these are really simple. Power to a standard swith then to actuator. Hell you could use a light switch from your house if you wanted to....see if these helps.

Cheap 120vac control actuator.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HONEYWELL-VC-Series-Valve-Actuator-4ATD4?Pid=search

24volt

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HONEYWELL-VC-Series-Valve-Actuator-4ATD3?Pid=search
 
im a hvac specialist (controls) and i use valve actuators all the time. When i get my brew stand fully built im defiently going to be taking parts off my truck. We use control valves from semiens, honeywell, TAC, belimo, KMC...Heres something you could be interested in. Theres a bunch of possibilities for this. So many different types of valves can use 0-10 vdc, 24vac, or 120 vac. Since i have the software to use all of these i can use a floating point meaning i can control the posistion and stop it where i want. In your case i would use a 2 way (on/off) valve. You can use 120 volt or if you dont want to have that kind of voltage at your kettle, use a 120 to 24 volt transformer. If you know how to wire these are really simple. Power to a standard swith then to actuator. Hell you could use a light switch from your house if you wanted to....see if these helps.

Cheap 120vac control actuator.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HONEYWELL-VC-Series-Valve-Actuator-4ATD4?Pid=search

24volt

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HONEYWELL-VC-Series-Valve-Actuator-4ATD3?Pid=search


Interesting. What software achieves the “floating point” and what hardware is used to interface with the valve? It provides some PWM i'm guessing.

I am in the process of finding parts to build an automated brew setup, and was considering these valves posted earler. But, I was wondering how to get the valve to maintain an in-between position. The info on the website is very vague. It says 12V on red = open, 12V on yellow = close. What about half-open? Maybe (open %) = (V Yellow / V Red)?? Or, (open %) = (PWM duty cycle yellow)??? Does anyone have any experience with these valves?
 
Interesting. What software achieves the “floating point” and what hardware is used to interface with the valve? It provides some PWM i'm guessing.

I am in the process of finding parts to build an automated brew setup, and was considering these valves posted earler. But, I was wondering how to get the valve to maintain an in-between position. The info on the website is very vague. It says 12V on red = open, 12V on yellow = close. What about half-open? Maybe (open %) = (V Yellow / V Red)?? Or, (open %) = (PWM duty cycle yellow)??? Does anyone have any experience with these valves?

The valve you are refering to is just a on/off, there are many types of actuators you can use. il explain......

we are a schneider rep. so we use their software which is called andover continuum. The software talks to our BCX(brains) through ethernet. We then hook up controllers with a standard 18 gauge 3 comm wire. Our controllers have many outputs and inputs. We can set or outputs to use on/off, tristate(open, close, off), or floating point(0-100%). For anybody to do this would be very expensive and not worth your time if you are not in the business. I have the software and easy to give out because you dont have to license it, but BCX's are a couple hundred and you can get a low end controller for 100 bucks.




For you to do it without or software and controllers it is very easy for you to set up a floating point. You would need a 120 volt to 24 volt transformer. From the 24 volts to a AC volt to DC volt converter, then from the converter hook up a potentiometer(dimmer switch), and from that to the valve. Most valves we use are 0 to 10 volts DC. So in your case thats why you would use the potentiometer to control how many dc volts you are sending to the valve..So if you crank the dimmer switch to half way (5 volts) your valve will listen to the signal and stop half way. It sounds crazy but very simple.
 
heres my box i use all the time

you can see on the right is my dimmer switch

dcbox-1.jpg


heres the insides. on the right is the 120 to 24 volt transformer, then from that on the left is my 24v to dc converter. from the converter you can see the wires go to the dimmer switch, then from the dimmer switch to my terminal block on the top picture labled signal.

dcbox2.jpg
 
Yes, it sounds very simple. But you are saying the cheap-o valves that I mentioned will not work in this fashion, and I should get the Honeywell ones from Grainger. Are they able to mount on any ball valve, or only the "VC" valves that they mention in the listing? (...whatever "VC" means) I'm thinking, buy standard ball valves to get my system working, then buy actuators when I can afford it. (Actuator + valve + electronics > $100 and my plan requires 6!)

Also wondering if I could modify the cheap valves with a rotary encoder/pot to make it adjustable.

Thanks a lot for your help!
 
That's a lot of expense and complication to get proportional valves. I use the KLD ones for simple ON/OFF of the flow and I have manual ball valves at the top of each kettle that I use to adjust the return flow rate (which does not need to be adjusted much during the brew session).
 
Thanks for some input. I have had a close eye on the valves you posted made from a Chinese group called KLD. The actuators on those seems like a perfect fit, I just wish they had a ISO mounting pad to them. Might order 1 anyways to see what I can make from it, if I fail at least I have 1 actuated valve:D.

I had previously reviewed the torques for several valves and was thinking down the path of using a 12v windshield wiper motor to actuate them. As you stated though, building my own would not be nearly as time effective!
If you are interested in seeing the drive mechanism and mounting pad, I can easily take the actuator off one of the valves for you and snap some pics.

I'm actually thinking about using one of these actuators to drive a door lock mechanism for our dog door.

Edit - here's a pic, I had a valve sitting right here.
Automated_Ball_Valve_Mounting.JPG
 
If you are interested in seeing the drive mechanism and mounting pad, I can easily take the actuator off one of the valves for you and snap some pics.

I'm actually thinking about using one of these actuators to drive a door lock mechanism for our dog door.

If you could ever find the time to take one a part and snap some pictures I would be greatly appreciative.

I have ordered a couple test actuators from a source that I can't name just yet (quantities are limited and if they work I will need more), I will post on how they turn out. Should have them in hand sometime next week.
 
Here's a picture of the inside circuit board and limiting sensors.

You can see the round plastic base has a detent in it. That makes contact with micro switches to determine the open close position. There's nothing there for proportional sensing.

Everything under the circuit board is the motor and gear drive mechanism (multiple step up / step down gears).

Automated_Ball_Valve_Circuit.JPG
 
Here's a picture of the inside circuit board and limiting sensors.

View attachment 18198

Thanks for posting that picture! There is the possibility that these actuators could be mated to an ISO pad but it would take some work and custom brackets.

The actuated valves I ordered appear to have an ISO pad on them... time will tell.
 
JonW,
That's a good point. I was also considering using cheap on/off valves at the entry/exit points of the kegs to automate the flow path, and maybe a single proportional valve (automated or manual) immediately after the pump to adjust flow rate.
 
Hey guys, just thought I'd add this link. I think I found it in another thread a while back. I've never used them or ordered from the company, but the Belimo valves look like they'd work. You can get them in on/off, floating or modulating control. They're listed at $90.

http://www.icsiparts.com/product/BVLV-0054/Belimo-B211TR24-3-US.html

The actuators on those Belimo valves look very similar to the ones I just purchased, can't wait to see how they work.
 
Good news...

Four of the actuated valves I ordered arrived today! They are Johnson Controls model VA9104-AGA-3S, 24VAC floating, 3/4" ball valves. The valves have a red button that can be used to manually override the actuator should a problem come up.

VA9104-AGA-3S%281%29.jpg


My hopes of having an ISO5211 mounting interface were confirmed upon inspection. The black plastic adapter under the blue actuator body is sized to fit a F03 ISO5211 pad. For the triclamp valves I want to order (see post #1) I will most likely need to drill and tap a thread on the square valve stem.

This actuator operation is super simple, apply 24VAC on terminal 2 and it will begin opening, apply it on terminal 3 and it will begin closing. Terminal 1 is a common ground. The datasheet says the valve will open/close in 60 seconds at 60hz. There are no end switches or position indicators, something I am eager to implement myself.

VA9104-AGA-3S_internals.jpg


The lower half of the actuator is the gear train which I have not and don't currently plan to inspect. There is a bunch of space in the top half of the enclosure to place components for position feedback/control etc.

I have modeled the actuator in 3D and it should fit perfectly on the valve pad:

VA9104_ISO5211_mounting.JPG


I purchased these on eBay and now that I have the 6 I need I am willing to share the source for anyone who is interested, although he is almost out: 3-4-Two-Way-Ball-Valve-w-Electric-Actuator-NIB

A little cheaper than the KLD's people have used, but I still have to buy the actual valves... the price I pay for tri-clamps I suppose. :drunk:
 
Anyone had success making their own actuators or adapting another product to work for brewing?
I have done it with pneumatic actuators.
2" butterfly valve
100_5574-1.jpg


100_5571.jpg

5 & 8 mm prox sensors can be mounted on the back.

100_5572.jpg


Commercial 2" actuator adapted to a 1-1/2" butterfly valve

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

100_5568.jpg
 
60 seconds to open or close? That's a long time.

The KLD are spec'd at 90sec. I am not too concerned with the open/closed time as they are really going to be used to change between modes (strike, sparge, transfer, etc) so time isn't critical.

Edit: After reviewing the datasheet on the KLD I see they have a 5-7s open to close time, not the 90 I remember... now which valve did I see 90 seconds on??? Still I don't think it will impact the process to have the valves open/close a little slower.


Claudius, as always that's some nice fancy equipment you have there. Me likey.
 
Awesome day in homebrew land! The 7 3/4" 3pc tri-clamp ball valves I ordered from Taiwan were sitting on my step when I came home from work:

3pc-triclamp-valves.jpg


I now have 6 actuators and 7 valves (ordered an extra valve just in case).

valves-and-actuators.jpg


I finally got to compare my 3D CAD versions against the real hardware and it looks like the valves and actuators should mate great!

valve-actuator-fittest1.jpg


Hopefully this weekend I can see if the actuators are up to the task of moving these valves.
 
The weekend came a little early I suppose, I was able to mount and test one of the valves with my actuators tonight. The actuator stem requires a little modification to get the orientation of the ball correct but overall they fit together well.

The actuator handles these valves with no issue! Time to continue the valve control circuit now that I know everything should work fine.
 
Actuators were from ebay about $45 each. Valves were direct from a supplier in Taiwan for $33 each, but shipping and bank transfer fees raised the unit rate up decent amount.
 
kjackbrown said:
Huh...I work for the "Buildings" division of Schneider..I'll look into this for my build!

If you think about it itsthe perfect setup using a bcx and a b3810. Too bad i dont have a extra 1000 bucks laying around for a bcx or i would have a nice setup by now

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk
 
Hey all, I found a supplier in China for SS 1/2 NPT electric (12VDC) ball valves. Only $24 each plus shipping and wire transfer fee (which is a bit much). If anybody else is interested, we could save some $$ on shipping and wire fee. Drop me a line. I plan on making the purchase on Monday.
 
I know this thread has been around awhile, but I thought I would ask how are the actuators working out for you. Specifically the time it takes the valves to open and close. Thank you for any insight you may have!
 
eanzelc said:
I know this thread has been around awhile, but I thought I would ask how are the actuators working out for you. Specifically the time it takes the valves to open and close. Thank you for any insight you may have!

Sorry to disappoint but I have not used the actuators for real brewing yet. My brewery has so many things to build and create that once I feel an item is viable like these valves I move on to the design of the next part. Just due to the challenges that remain in the control software for the brewery my valves will be hand actuated initially. As a one man team that has too much on its plate, progress can be slow at times.

I do still believe these will work for my purposes. When the control board is complete and these actually get some use I will be sure to update this thread.
 
Any updates?

I have control boards made but they have not been populated or tested. My main thrust has been the remainder of the brewery controller. You can follow the progress here: My FULL-ON electric build thread

Here is a shot of the control board mounted in a valve housing:
VA9104_Control_PCB.jpg


I don't know if I have shared the details in the past, but here goes:
Each valve will connect to the main control panel with a standard Ethernet cable that provides +12VDC for the controller, 24VAC for the valve motors, and an I2C bus for position commands/reports. An on board PIC18F will act as the interface and controller. Valve direction is controlled by turning one of two photo-triacs on (DIP chips shown in the picture above). The position of the valve will be read with a magnetic position sensor that will mount on a separate tiny board in the center of the assembly where the blue circle sticks out of the PCB. Each control board has 4 dip switches to set the valve number so they can be individually addressed. There is also an RGB status LED that will eventually be used.

That being said, it will still be a while before these are worked on. I just ordered the boards with the other PCBs for my system to save money and time.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top