I really like to taste samples. It tells me a lot more than just the hydrometer number. One thing you can do is just add back 5 ozs of fresh wort from the next beer you brew to top it up. It will create a little activity that will help scrub the O2 you introduced when taking the sample, but will not affect the souring. 5 ozs in a gallon (128 ozs) is only 4%.
Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)
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I really like to taste samples. It tells me a lot more than just the hydrometer number. One thing you can do is just add back 5 ozs of fresh wort from the next beer you brew to top it up. It will create a little activity that will help scrub the O2 you introduced when taking the sample, but will not affect the souring. 5 ozs in a gallon (128 ozs) is only 4%.
peaktopview
Well-Known Member
actually this is the first i've heard of topping off after a sample. usually hear about topping off head space as with wine. makes sense though with such a long aging process. still have a long while before i take a reading. my first sour (saison w/jp dregs) is only a month old. sigh, wish i was brewing a year ago. it does smell good though. thanks for the suggestion.
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HokieBrewer
Well-Known Member
Made two of these today - Belgian dark strong with dregs from riserva, oed kriek, and a flanders. Also an Ipa with a little bit of trappist high gravity and dregs from a fantome strange ghost. Excited!
Nice, Hokie! I just made some 1 gallon batches with Russian River Consecration dregs, Cascade Brewing, and a combo of the two. I'll post a video on YouTube, and check back here!
Here is my brewday. I used dregs from a bottle of Russian River Temptation and a bottle of Cascade Brewing Kriek. A third used a mixture of Temptation and Cascade Brewing Sang Royal dregs. We'll see how the extract comes out. I'll post more videos as the beer progresses.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGBx75WxXW4]Homebrew Wednesday #5 - Sour Beer Experiment - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGBx75WxXW4]Homebrew Wednesday #5 - Sour Beer Experiment - YouTube[/ame]
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
Nice Video dantheman.
(One note about the hops, the reason for the aged hops is because you want to be able to use a large amount of hops for the beta acids which inhibit bacteria growth (really only needed during spontaneous fermentation) without adding bitterness. And the alpha acids drop with time so this decreases the amount of bitterness. This is also why traditionally hops used for lambics are already low in alpha acids.)
I haven't used Cascade dregs so I'll be interested in seeing your results.
As for the Russian River Temptation the dregs depend on your bottle's batch number (Check here: Russian River Brewing Co.), but more than likely your active fermentation is from their wine yeast (Rockpile).
(One note about the hops, the reason for the aged hops is because you want to be able to use a large amount of hops for the beta acids which inhibit bacteria growth (really only needed during spontaneous fermentation) without adding bitterness. And the alpha acids drop with time so this decreases the amount of bitterness. This is also why traditionally hops used for lambics are already low in alpha acids.)
I haven't used Cascade dregs so I'll be interested in seeing your results.
As for the Russian River Temptation the dregs depend on your bottle's batch number (Check here: Russian River Brewing Co.), but more than likely your active fermentation is from their wine yeast (Rockpile).
Thanks, Almighty. I'm glad you have stuck around to offer up your advice and feedback!
I haven't checked on the Cascade only fermentation in a day or so, but if it does not show some action by the end of this weekend, do you think I should toss in another shot of dregs? I happen to have a bottle or two left of Cascade beers. What do you think?
HokieBrewer
Well-Known Member
I'm having the same issue with my BDS with dregs. 3 days and nothing. More dregs, or conventional yeast? My other 5 gals on BDS happens to blowing off plenty of 3787 I could use...
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
dantheman -
I'm not too familiar with the Cascade dregs and it looks like not too many others are. A few people at BBB have started looking into it, and I've posted to see the progress.
The Burgundian Babble Belt -- Pushing the Homebrew Envelope
I'm just not sure if there is any yeast in the dregs (Brett or Sacc). You may try calling or emailing Cascade Brewing.
If the Cascade dregs don't have yeast then your other 2 bottles won't help. You will need to add some yeast unless you just want a very sour non-alcoholic soda.
I'm not too familiar with the Cascade dregs and it looks like not too many others are. A few people at BBB have started looking into it, and I've posted to see the progress.
The Burgundian Babble Belt -- Pushing the Homebrew Envelope
I'm just not sure if there is any yeast in the dregs (Brett or Sacc). You may try calling or emailing Cascade Brewing.
If the Cascade dregs don't have yeast then your other 2 bottles won't help. You will need to add some yeast unless you just want a very sour non-alcoholic soda.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
HokieBrewer-
You have to be more specific what dregs you used in your BDS.
And remember that you should treat the yeast in the dregs as you would yeast for your main batch. I assume your BDS had a pretty high OG so the dregs probably should have had a starter to get them built up.
After 3 days and no activity I would add some Sacc yeast. The 3787 should work very well and then if you have Brett in any of your dregs it will kick in later.
When using dregs you want to make sure that there is some sort of viable yeast in the dregs. That is why I'm recommending people use a small 4-6 oz starter in the bottle if there is a concern about viable yeast or gross underpitching.
You have to be more specific what dregs you used in your BDS.
And remember that you should treat the yeast in the dregs as you would yeast for your main batch. I assume your BDS had a pretty high OG so the dregs probably should have had a starter to get them built up.
After 3 days and no activity I would add some Sacc yeast. The 3787 should work very well and then if you have Brett in any of your dregs it will kick in later.
When using dregs you want to make sure that there is some sort of viable yeast in the dregs. That is why I'm recommending people use a small 4-6 oz starter in the bottle if there is a concern about viable yeast or gross underpitching.
HokieBrewer
Well-Known Member
Yeah I missed that part about a starter somehow... Looks like something is starting to form on top, not sure if it's mold or a pellicle, but either way I'll add some 3787 and hope for the best.
Dregs were Weyerbacher Riserva, Gueuze fond tradition, and Brewery Bockor Bellegems bruin.
Dregs were Weyerbacher Riserva, Gueuze fond tradition, and Brewery Bockor Bellegems bruin.
Solether
New Member
My RR Temptation dregs/saison has been going for about 3 months now, so I'm going to take a sample tonight and see where the gravity is and how it tastes. I'm hoping the amarillo didn't inhibit the bugs too much.
Yesterday we brewed an IPA with Sorachi Ace, and pitched a decent starter that we grew from The Bruery's FBBB dregs, which worked awesomely (though admittedly, not sour). We also made starters of their Batch 50 GFAR, which is maybe the sourest beer I've ever had so we're excited to work with that one, along with one of JP IO Saison and La Roja. We've also got RR Supplication, Adam, Bruery Cuir, and a few other things ready to be grown as well.
Will post some updates tomorrow.
Yesterday we brewed an IPA with Sorachi Ace, and pitched a decent starter that we grew from The Bruery's FBBB dregs, which worked awesomely (though admittedly, not sour). We also made starters of their Batch 50 GFAR, which is maybe the sourest beer I've ever had so we're excited to work with that one, along with one of JP IO Saison and La Roja. We've also got RR Supplication, Adam, Bruery Cuir, and a few other things ready to be grown as well.
Will post some updates tomorrow.
I am in awe!
Humble question; if in my first "dregs" beer I were to pitch coopers yeast and the dregs of 1-2 botles of Orval,how long should I wait to bottle?
I dont want to syphon off for a hydrometer reading as the strain on the batch size would make my weep!
I was thinking of an OG of 1035 and about 35-40 IBUs.
Humble question; if in my first "dregs" beer I were to pitch coopers yeast and the dregs of 1-2 botles of Orval,how long should I wait to bottle?
I dont want to syphon off for a hydrometer reading as the strain on the batch size would make my weep!
I was thinking of an OG of 1035 and about 35-40 IBUs.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
Solether -
Looks like you have a nice spread of yeasts to try. The dregs from the Bruery & Dogfish Head Faster, Bigger, Better, Bolder should be Sake yeast right? That is what I understood.
And I also just recently had the Bruery's Batch 50 and thought it was one of the better American Sours I have had. From some research it looks like it should be similar to East Coast ECY04 BRETT blend #1. But I'll bet there is much more knowing what Al B is capable of. I recently used both of the above dregs and a few more in a batch where we poured the dregs from all the beers we drank at my holiday party.
Bikes, Beer, and Adventures: Dreg Series: Hoilday Party Oud Bruin 2011
badlee- to be honest there are so many variables it is hard to say. But there are a few things you can do to reduce the aging time, but your trade-off will be a less complex or funky or sour beer.
First, you want to mash at a low temperature below 150 or if using extract find one that is very fermentable (this can be searched for). Second, use a Sacc yeast strain that will attenuate very well, like a Saison or Belgian strain (you can use dregs for this too). My guess is 4-6 months, but that is a guess.
If you don't want to consume too much beer with a sample just use a hydrometer to take your final gravity reading. It only takes a drop and can be converted with some online calculators. Wait till the gravity stabilizes for a month and bottle normally.
Looks like you have a nice spread of yeasts to try. The dregs from the Bruery & Dogfish Head Faster, Bigger, Better, Bolder should be Sake yeast right? That is what I understood.
And I also just recently had the Bruery's Batch 50 and thought it was one of the better American Sours I have had. From some research it looks like it should be similar to East Coast ECY04 BRETT blend #1. But I'll bet there is much more knowing what Al B is capable of. I recently used both of the above dregs and a few more in a batch where we poured the dregs from all the beers we drank at my holiday party.
Bikes, Beer, and Adventures: Dreg Series: Hoilday Party Oud Bruin 2011
badlee- to be honest there are so many variables it is hard to say. But there are a few things you can do to reduce the aging time, but your trade-off will be a less complex or funky or sour beer.
First, you want to mash at a low temperature below 150 or if using extract find one that is very fermentable (this can be searched for). Second, use a Sacc yeast strain that will attenuate very well, like a Saison or Belgian strain (you can use dregs for this too). My guess is 4-6 months, but that is a guess.
If you don't want to consume too much beer with a sample just use a hydrometer to take your final gravity reading. It only takes a drop and can be converted with some online calculators. Wait till the gravity stabilizes for a month and bottle normally.
HokieBrewer
Well-Known Member
Hydrometer or refractometer?
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
This is a very cool project. I am not sure how I have missed it. Great work and a very creative way to increase the diversity of beer you have sitting around.
I think I see this plan in my future.
I think I see this plan in my future.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
Whoops, thanks HokieBrewer. Refractometer I meant. This is one gadget I wish I had earlier. For $30 on ebay, I use this so much now, but mostly only during mashing and boiling. I still use my hydrometer for final gravities because I like to sample anyways.
The malt I shall use is for the greater part home malted wheat(homebrew stores do not exist here in Thailand) with about 20% Maris Otter.
The temps are high here even though it's winter. My big FV is going at 27c as I type.
I am too much of a poor sod to be able to order things like a Refractometer, as I get Thai salary.
The yeasts I have on deck are red star champangne, coopers, notty, mauribrew ale, saf ale WB-06.
But mash temps,that I can contol. And the heat will make it age faster but less graciously?
Thanks very much Almighty,great help. I am very much looking forward to trying this out.
The temps are high here even though it's winter. My big FV is going at 27c as I type.
I am too much of a poor sod to be able to order things like a Refractometer, as I get Thai salary.
The yeasts I have on deck are red star champangne, coopers, notty, mauribrew ale, saf ale WB-06.
But mash temps,that I can contol. And the heat will make it age faster but less graciously?
Thanks very much Almighty,great help. I am very much looking forward to trying this out.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
badlee- I didn't notice the Thailand location.
So what access do you have to beer, because you were going to get a couple bottles of Orval? Do you have access to any Saisons or other Belgian beers. Because you can use the Sacc yeast in those beers to create a pretty dry beer. Otherwise I would suggest you use your Champagne yeast at the same time as the Orval dregs. Or if you can get some Belgian dry yeast (Fermentis T-58), which I have heard of people having good success with even at high temps.
So what access do you have to beer, because you were going to get a couple bottles of Orval? Do you have access to any Saisons or other Belgian beers. Because you can use the Sacc yeast in those beers to create a pretty dry beer. Otherwise I would suggest you use your Champagne yeast at the same time as the Orval dregs. Or if you can get some Belgian dry yeast (Fermentis T-58), which I have heard of people having good success with even at high temps.
There is a supermarket here in Chiang mai catering to ex-pats,so they have Orval,Mc Chouffe,Leffe and a few others.
I have a 23ltr brew in the FV now,which I wanted to be as saisonish as I could get,but the yeast didn't come through in time(T-58) so I went with wb-06. You reckon I could throw in the champagne yeast with that(it's been fermenting since sunday)?
Cheers.
I have a 23ltr brew in the FV now,which I wanted to be as saisonish as I could get,but the yeast didn't come through in time(T-58) so I went with wb-06. You reckon I could throw in the champagne yeast with that(it's been fermenting since sunday)?
Cheers.
Too late to add additional yeast.
I don't know if you are aware, but you can culture the yeast in McChouffe. It's the Ardennes strain (WLP550). It can give some pretty good results fermented warm. I usually ferment it at 75F (about 24 C) and ramp it up to 80 at the end. It is my understanding that above 75F fior initial fermentation temp, and you can start to get noticeable fusel alcohols, but I don't get them at 75. If you have ever heard of Jolly Pumpkin, it's the yeast they use for their base fermentations before introducing any sour bugs. I think you will find it a better yeast than T-58.
Leffe is filtered so you can't culture their yeast.
Go check some threads on it; there are lots. Basically 1) The more bottle dregs you use the better, but 1 is fine. 2) Let bottle sit to settle yeast/sediment. 3) Carefully pour out the beer leaving the last half inch. 4) Add a few ozs of 1.020 wort to the bottle and cover with some foil, or a loose cap of some sort. 5) Swirl occasionally for several days. 6) After several days, step up to a bigger starter using 1.040 wort. Wort can be made from some extract.
Use good sanitization procedures; you have only a little yeast you are using, so sanitization is more important than with a full size batch due to relative population size of contamination vs. yeast.
Again, check some threads on it. They may have more detailed and better information.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
Badlee-
I'm a little behind at posting my results on homebrewtalk. But one of the best experiments with dregs so far was with Achouffe dregs. I did this several months ago and had great results. It is one of the better Belgian beers I have made. I have instructions on how I culture the dregs, but if you have any questions let me know.
Bikes, Beer, and Adventures: Dreg Series: Achouffe Belgian Pale Ale
I believe the beer dried out into single digits ~1.008, so this would be a good candidate for your beer with Brett. I would probably add dregs from Orval and Achouffe at the same time to ensure you get a nice fermentation.
I'm a little behind at posting my results on homebrewtalk. But one of the best experiments with dregs so far was with Achouffe dregs. I did this several months ago and had great results. It is one of the better Belgian beers I have made. I have instructions on how I culture the dregs, but if you have any questions let me know.
Bikes, Beer, and Adventures: Dreg Series: Achouffe Belgian Pale Ale
I believe the beer dried out into single digits ~1.008, so this would be a good candidate for your beer with Brett. I would probably add dregs from Orval and Achouffe at the same time to ensure you get a nice fermentation.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
Nope, if you are planning to do a 1 gal batch. I would recommend a small starter (4-6 oz of 1.030-1.040) done in the bottle for a few days before pitching.
If you are doing more than that I would do the small starter as noted above, then the 1 gal batch and then use that yeast for a 5 gal batch.
If you are doing more than that I would do the small starter as noted above, then the 1 gal batch and then use that yeast for a 5 gal batch.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
It is recommended to use malt extract, but I don't have any direct experience with using sugar or honey. The argument is that the yeast will adapt to ferment the simple sugars in honey and table sugar and will not be able to ferment maltose. I don't think this adaptation can happen in one generation of a starter, but I don't have experience.
It is worth a try and in the future I would suggest you use my method of saving some 2nd runnings wort with a low gravity in ziploc bags in the freezer to use for starters.
Let me know how it works for you.
It is worth a try and in the future I would suggest you use my method of saving some 2nd runnings wort with a low gravity in ziploc bags in the freezer to use for starters.
Let me know how it works for you.
That's a very good idea with the second runnings,I will have to give that a go.
I am pricing up 5ltr demijohns at the second hand shops around here. 80Baht(2 and a bit dollars) is the best price so far,just got to find a bung to fit the ari lock to now.
I am pricing up 5ltr demijohns at the second hand shops around here. 80Baht(2 and a bit dollars) is the best price so far,just got to find a bung to fit the ari lock to now.
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
I have a few other Belgian Beer yeast strains I've tried recently:
Maredsous Bruin in a Belgian Dark Strong wort - supposedly Duvel yeast, so WLP570 and Wyeast 1388 - worked great, hydro sample tasted good, but this needs to age
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/11/dreg-series-maredsous-belgian-dark.html
Ommegang Dubbel in Belgian Dubbel wort - proprietary yeast - activity in 12 hours - I'm not that thrilled with the beer, but I think it is the wort not the yeast's fault.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/10/dreg-series-ommegang-belgian-dubbel.html
Westmalle Dubbel in Belgian Dubbel wort - apparently White Labs 530 and Wyeast 3787 - also active in 12 hours and not thrilled with this one either, but don't think it is the yeast's fault.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/10/dreg-series-westmalle-belgian-dubbel.html
Rochefort 8 in Belgian Pale Ale wort - apparently White Labs 540 Abbey IV - active in 24 hours - I would like to compare to the White Lab version - the beer turned out ok, just not my favorite Belgian yeast
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/09/dreg-series-rochefort-belgian-pale-ale.html
Next year, I'm going to try the commercial and dreg yeast side by side.
Maredsous Bruin in a Belgian Dark Strong wort - supposedly Duvel yeast, so WLP570 and Wyeast 1388 - worked great, hydro sample tasted good, but this needs to age
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/11/dreg-series-maredsous-belgian-dark.html
Ommegang Dubbel in Belgian Dubbel wort - proprietary yeast - activity in 12 hours - I'm not that thrilled with the beer, but I think it is the wort not the yeast's fault.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/10/dreg-series-ommegang-belgian-dubbel.html
Westmalle Dubbel in Belgian Dubbel wort - apparently White Labs 530 and Wyeast 3787 - also active in 12 hours and not thrilled with this one either, but don't think it is the yeast's fault.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/10/dreg-series-westmalle-belgian-dubbel.html
Rochefort 8 in Belgian Pale Ale wort - apparently White Labs 540 Abbey IV - active in 24 hours - I would like to compare to the White Lab version - the beer turned out ok, just not my favorite Belgian yeast
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/09/dreg-series-rochefort-belgian-pale-ale.html
Next year, I'm going to try the commercial and dreg yeast side by side.
So, I got around to brewing this batch on Saturday. I did a one and a 4 gallon.
So,the one gallon was 800gr wheat malt, 200gr MO and 100gr TF pale crystal.
I hopped with Glacier, a little aged'but not bad.
It was mashed at about 67c for 45mins and I then did the rest. I figure I got 37IBUs.
I pitched a sachet of Coopers yeast AND the dregs from an Orval.
WOW,sh*t a brick! Furious fermentation inside of TWO HOURS
Now begind the wait.
Next up, LaChouffe
So,the one gallon was 800gr wheat malt, 200gr MO and 100gr TF pale crystal.
I hopped with Glacier, a little aged'but not bad.
It was mashed at about 67c for 45mins and I then did the rest. I figure I got 37IBUs.
I pitched a sachet of Coopers yeast AND the dregs from an Orval.
WOW,sh*t a brick! Furious fermentation inside of TWO HOURS
Now begind the wait.
Next up, LaChouffe
bubbachunk
Well-Known Member
I love this idea, wish I would have found it sooner as I would have started in on it sooner.
General question though, any good sites for ordering sour beers on? I am in Arkansas and the beer selection is bad at best, so finding sours local is not really any option. Also a general agreement on which beers have worked well?
General question though, any good sites for ordering sour beers on? I am in Arkansas and the beer selection is bad at best, so finding sours local is not really any option. Also a general agreement on which beers have worked well?
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Almighty
Well-Known Member
I can't help you with the online site, but if you have a decent shop close by it should be pretty easy to have them order you something. Or use Beer Advocate to trade what you do have.
Well, general agreement is hard to say and is sorta the meaning behind this thread. Whatever dregs you use will have characteristics of the beer they came from. So it is easier to start with what commercial sour beer you like and then people post to agree how well they work?
My favorite has been the Drie Brett strains that were harvested from Avery 15, but I believe they have been used in other beers (Ithaca Brute).
As far as tried and true, Jolly Pumpkin dregs are fantastic and work relatively quickly. Russian River has been good to me, but changes depending on what one of their beers you use. The Bruery also has some very viable dregs. And Orval, if you just want Brett. But there are a lot of choices, for me and others the fun part is to try new dregs to see what works.
Well, general agreement is hard to say and is sorta the meaning behind this thread. Whatever dregs you use will have characteristics of the beer they came from. So it is easier to start with what commercial sour beer you like and then people post to agree how well they work?
My favorite has been the Drie Brett strains that were harvested from Avery 15, but I believe they have been used in other beers (Ithaca Brute).
As far as tried and true, Jolly Pumpkin dregs are fantastic and work relatively quickly. Russian River has been good to me, but changes depending on what one of their beers you use. The Bruery also has some very viable dregs. And Orval, if you just want Brett. But there are a lot of choices, for me and others the fun part is to try new dregs to see what works.
bubbachunk
Well-Known Member
Arkansas is beer Siberia, there is nothing to buy or with which to trade.
Orval is pure Brett? I didn't realize that...
Anyhow, they dont need to work "quickly" as when I harvest I plan on throwing them into a starter to build up a solid colony.
Orval is pure Brett? I didn't realize that...
Anyhow, they dont need to work "quickly" as when I harvest I plan on throwing them into a starter to build up a solid colony.
I am starting my sour production in a few days thanks to this thread. I am brewing up a bier de garde tomorrow and plan on doing a 6 gallon batch, letting it ferment down to about 1.035 with WLP072, then rack a gallon off to a sour vessel. Will probably pitch a culture from RR supplication since that's what I have in the fridge right now. Thanks to everyone for all their contributions to this thread. I will post updates too.
For those who are weary of taking gravity readings out of the 1 gallon, I was thinking why not just drop your hydrometer into the whole thing? Won't waste any delicious sour beer, and you should be able to pull it back out pretty easily (maybe tie a safety string to it just in case).
For those who are weary of taking gravity readings out of the 1 gallon, I was thinking why not just drop your hydrometer into the whole thing? Won't waste any delicious sour beer, and you should be able to pull it back out pretty easily (maybe tie a safety string to it just in case).
nberk
Well-Known Member
Bithead
Well-Known Member
I was thinking the same thing for readings. I would suggest not dropping too hard into your vessel lest the hydrometer hit bottom and break. I too thought about string.
Now the day I was going to take a gravity reading I decided to throw in some fruit and since there was no room in the bottle to add fruit I racked off 10 oz of beer then added fruit figuring I had enough for gravity sample. So had to taste the sample and was doing the fruit and offered girlfriend a taste. Dang the sample was good, gf wanted more sample and you guessed it, finished off 10 oz of sample and no gravity reading. It was tasty. Should hvae just bottled it then.
bubbachunk
Well-Known Member
By the way, is head space desired with sour beers? I was going to do ~1.25 gallon in 2 gallon buckets for a week or two then rack to 1 gallon jugs in the case if I wanted to add fruit or anything
dangloverenator
Active Member
I'm hoping to make a sour porter next week. Here's my plan, will this work? I'm going to brew a 10l (2.5gal) batch, and once it's cooled, transfer 8-9l into the main vessel, and then pitch a basic dry yeast. With the other 1-2 litres, I'm going to transfer it to a separate container and pitch the dregs of a cantillon bottle. I will then blend the two together in secondary, to add (hopefully) a subtle tartness. One question - how long will it take for the cantillon dregs to sour the wort in the other vessel? Presumably longer than the dry yeast? Thoughts, please!
