What is up with Winemakers superiority to brewers?

So, I am looking to get some grapes. Rather than let them rot on the vine, I decide I'll go pick them and try to make some wine, even though I really don't like wine much.

Anyway, I'm reading a downloaded copy of "Winemaking for Dummies", by Tim Patterson, and near the end, he gives 10 points why winemakers are better than brewers. It's the kind of humour that a wine snob would get a chuckle over. It's worth it to note that Patterson does acknowledge that many winemakers drink beer while processing their fruit, so he does cede the point of beer's acceptance by a lot of people.

Frankly, I don't see the point of including this kind of a message. I understand there is a perception that wine is superior to beer. The facts are muddled, supposed, and at any rate, subjective.

Does this kind of thing give either hobby a benefit?

The book was written this year. The craft beer scene has been growing tremendously for quite some time. Surely he could denote a few lines to acknowledge that there are many more flavors of beer to choose from, than the "Ale" and "Lager" he defines in his humourous section.

Unless he's totally ignorant of craft beer (which is entirely possible), he perhaps should not mention that beer does not age (which is also true for some types of wine, as I understand it from the VERY small amount of wine knowledge I contain.

Of course I understand I'm Getting My Panties in a Bunch here. I could continue my life without commenting and I'm sure I'd get over it in due time (probably when I crack open that bottle of Founders Canadian Breakfast Stout that some people are selling for over $100 on Ebay!)

But honestly, I just see this as a ****** (or should I say, *****é) move. It's spreading misinformation and encouraging ill will between two camps that should not even be "camps" to begin with IMO.

I know I don't "get" wine. I don't care for the fruity, dry, tart flavors. I can't sense the subtle nuances that define a <insert hoity toity wine name here>. But I don't discourage people from winemaking, or poo poo the hobby or connoisseurs of fine wine.

Is the message from Patterson simply that he thinks putting down brewers, even in jest, will sell more books? What's in it for him or the hobby? Maybe he's just that ignorant? I can't believe it. Surely he has gained some amount of craft beer knowledge in his years of winemaking.

What is up with that?

I have noticed that wine drinkers hold themselves In a higher class then beer drinkers and brewers whenever I'm in my local brew shop their always saying something snarky about beer brewing but ignorance is a part of life

I'd say it's a funny jab not to be taken seriously.

Wine only makers are just jealous... Face it... If you can boil water you can Brew beer, and if you can't.. well you can make wine.... So right there, brewing takes more skill than wine making.

I make both drinks, and mead...

Its a truly interesting question though, especially for a noob like me... is wine/mead easier to start and harder to master or is that not the case?

there's always going to be more to learn for wine or beer. if you get to a point where you can say "oh, well i mastered this" then fine. but there will always be more to learn. there's just too much involved to ever know everything about it.

I never take things like that seriously. Most times, it's just humor, but if someone really feels like they need to feel superior, then I look down on them for that .

"I honestly do believe there should be a ruling class, because I rule" ~Some dude I knew in college

This is funny to me because I make wine with older Italians who thought I didn't know - - - - because I only make beer. They were actually made at me the first year I made wine with them because I brought beer to the wine making fest.

In the years since I have shown my ability and willingness to learn everything they teach me and they have become alot more accepting of me (well that and the fact I gave them homemade Sopressata) They could not believe someone my age made something that good, I was 25 at the time.

Anyway, I figured in the end who really cares. We all now deep down inside brewers are cooler than winemakers!

One of my local HBS has a wine guy working with them who is sometimes the only one in the store so you will be forced to speak with him. Anytime you ask him a beer related question he gives you a smartass reply that is worthless. Now I understand that he’s not a beer kind of guy but still why turn up your nose to brewers who are trying to pay your salary?

I am pretty much low class anyway so beer suites me just fine

Same old BS competitive nature. Wine makers think they are superior to brewers just like bow hunters think they are hot $h!t compared to those who hunt with a crossbow.

To each their own....

Anytime you see low class and crossbow in consecutive post you know your talking to beer drinkers!

I didn't read the whole thread, but here is my take on it.

I am a professional winemaker. Making good wine is extremely difficult compared to beer. Just choosing when to harvest your grapes is more difficult than making beer. Then you add in farming, actually making the wine, aging it, and blending it.

That being said. I make beer at home. I enjoy it, and love to drink it. In fact, I consume more beer than I do wine (outside of work). I have actually considered starting a brewery in the future. Strictly because wine is so difficult.

One more thing. I have been in the specialty beverage industry for 9 years now. If you think about it, out of all the specialty beverages, wine is the mecca.

Beer
Wine
Coffee
Tea
Soda
Spirits
etc.

I made wine a long time before I dabbled in beer (with the Beer Machine 2000!). I never thought of wine as superior to beer but I started making beer because I love it and it's so much faster than wine! I'm a pretty decent brewer and an ok winemaker. I'm not an expert on either, but I probably make better beer than wine.

Wine is easy in theory. But it's the certain "je ne sais quoi" that makes it so challenging. This years fruits might be more tannic, or lower in brix. Or the stars are aligned differently today than last week. The same wine is never the same, although the process and specifications for the pH, brix, ingredients, etc, may be.

I know that I know many beer snobs that are just as bad as wine snobs, though. I pretty happily guzzle anything, but my love is for great beer. I do have a fondness for fine wines also, though!

If you break it down by processes, brewers have to know something about an entirely different process.

Beer and winemaking both share:
growing conditions/horticulture
acidity, pH, alkalinity, etc
When to harvest
Fermentation and yeast (and research/cultivation of yeast)
Temperature control
Bottling/barrel/keg dynamics
aging
sugar content

But brewer's have a fairly complicated middle step:
Malting
Modification of malt (crystal malt, acidulated, torrified, etc)
Mashing--what temp. (which enzymes at what temp), how long, sparge (type)
Boiling--how long, which hops for how long,
chilling (or not)

The fine art of wine making is about picking the grape at the right time, blending the right juice, yeast and patience.

There are so many extra "degrees' of freedom" in beer making that can be tweaked (or F***ed up) compared to wine making.

I make both wine and beer, and winemaking is so much easier than brewing beer.

ACbrewer said:

Wine only makers are just jealous... Face it... If you can boil water you can Brew beer, and if you can't.. well you can make wine.... So right there, brewing takes more skill than wine making.

I make both drinks, and mead...

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The only way to be more superiour to you AC is to do something illegal in the USA

The point I like to make to my non brewing and non winemaker friends is that I appreciate both hobbies, but as a brewer I enjoy the ability to use a variety of ingredients and produce such a wide range of beverages that are all classified as beer. As such, I think brewing is open to more creativity.

I will concede that I think it's difficult to produce a truly amazing wine, there's definitely skill required there. I'd someday like to delve into winemaking, but right now I'm perfectly happy just brewing.

If I start distilling fine Irish whiskey, can I look down on you all?

bonsai4tim said:

If you break it down by processes, brewers have to know something about an entirely different process.

Beer and winemaking both share:
growing conditions/horticulture
acidity, pH, alkalinity, etc
When to harvest
Fermentation and yeast (and research/cultivation of yeast)
Temperature control
Bottling/barrel/keg dynamics
aging
sugar content

But brewer's have a fairly complicated middle step:
Malting
Modification of malt (crystal malt, acidulated, torrified, etc)
Mashing--what temp. (which enzymes at what temp), how long, sparge (type)
Boiling--how long, which hops for how long,
chilling (or not)

The fine art of wine making is about picking the grape at the right time, blending the right juice, yeast and patience.

There are so many extra "degrees' of freedom" in beer making that can be tweaked (or F***ed up) compared to wine making.

I make both wine and beer, and winemaking is so much easier than brewing beer.

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Well, one point to winemakers is if they actually farm their own grapes. Most brewers don't have barley farms or hop farms. 1/2 of my year I am not only a winemaker but a grape grower. That makes for 60-90 hour weeks from February through October.

rhamilton said:

If I start distilling fine Irish whiskey, can I look down on you all?

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Only if you get a room on the secnd floor and your roommate says you can

I'd say that the quote from the book was likely to be more of a joke than anything, however the chances of someone picking up the book is that the person will be interested in wine. Not necessarily only wine, but it's unlikely a beer only maker who isn't interested in wine. I've seen statements in both ways, especially in the past few posts.

Both can be as easy, or as complicated, as desired, depending on the process.
I'm going to say that despite growing conditions in regards to barley&wheat (and in my case sorghum & rice), there tends to be more growing conformity between years, not to mention, that it's a new plant each and every year. Fruit, even though is an established plant, is quite finicky throughout the entire year, and like it was said, for a vineyard/winery, props to them. Not to mention which of the numberious varieites would grow best in the local growing conditions.

In my stance beer kits and wine kits are pretty much equal in difficulty, deciding on blends of grains/fruit and then mashing grains and crushing grapes are each difficult. etc. They're different.

Admittedly, I have to lean towards wine being the more difficult, if only due to the necessary aging process. Sure beer can age, but wine has a necessary aging process due to the common 10-15% range, and will age for a year or two on average, before being consumed, and some for 5 years. I haven't the patience to be calm enough to feel like it'll turn out ok 5 years from now, or if I'm would wind up with a vinegar that I'd have to dispose of, despite the cost and effort. Yes, the same would be if I made a beer that was 10-15%, but my beers are 4-6% and are ready within 3-6 weeks, not years, and cost less to make. Much less if I can manage some sorghum grain processes.

My wife's grandfather was an old Italian wine maker. He would go to the train yards and inspect the grapes when they arrived. By squeezing the grapes between his fingers and whatever other methods he used, he could determine what batch to buy. When he determined the grapes worthy, he would buy and so would all the other Italians in the neighborhood. They would all make wine from the same grapes and then argue who made the best wine.... I loved the day's we would visit him and drink his wine and just talk. Now I am just bored with wine making and enjoy the process of brewing beer more. I also think beer brewers are more fun to be around.

KevinM said:

...Admittedly, I have to lean towards wine being the more difficult, if only due to the necessary aging process. Sure beer can age, but wine has a necessary aging process due to the common 10-15% range, and will age for a year or two on average, before being consumed, and some for 5 years. I haven't the patience to be calm enough to feel like it'll turn out ok 5 years from now, or if I'm would wind up with a vinegar that I'd have to dispose of, despite the cost and effort. Yes, the same would be if I made a beer that was 10-15%, but my beers are 4-6% and are ready within 3-6 weeks, not years, and cost less to make. Much less if I can manage some sorghum grain processes.

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I think you are confusing difficulty with patience, although sometimes it is difficult to be patient

Does the beer making for dummies have jokes about winemakers?

That attitude is, I think, a tongue-in-cheek joke made by some grape wine makers. Really not appropriate and certainly not accurate.

Of all the fermentables, I believe beer is the *hardest* to learn to make. If not to perfect, then to make passably.

The easiest is grape wine ... grapes are closer to perfect in terms of all of their profiles ... sugar, acid, tannin, nutrients that the yeast requires, they often even have yeast itself which often exists on the outside of its skins.
If you fell into a vat of grapes and had a seizure ... in a few weeks you'd have wine.

More difficult than the grape wine is wine that is NOT made from grapes.
For what it’s worth, this is predominantly the types of wine I still make. Banana, apple, cranberry, blueberry, cherry, lemon, crabapple, pomegranate, the list goes on and on including many things of questionable fermentability.
This is quite a bit more exacting to learn and requires you to know all the processes and chemical reactions separately. A great many fruits are far off of the ideal profiles. No "falling into the vat" and, voila, wine.
If you want to learn to make wine, don't start with grape but instead learn to make non-grape wine successfully, then move on to grapes and on to the intricacies of grape wine and it’s varietals and more complex points, especially blending, grape growing and vineyard management.

The next most "difficult" I think is hard cider. Maybe not so much "difficult" but "particular". Cider is made much like wine but because the alcohol percentage is lower, the pH is usually higher and it is not often sulfited, it can't defend itself so well from spoilage infections. Also because much cider is sparkling and a common way to give it the bubbles is to "bottle condition" it ... you have to hop around on one foot to get it made plus sweetened to your preference plus get it carbonated plus then store it until you drink it without it exploding.

I think the most difficult is beer - and not just because it is the one I have done the least.
It is difficult or particular for the reasons that cider is and also because there are the additional steps in its processes ... malting, boiling, hopping, various other additions, lactose, maltodextrin, etc and much nuance in getting the flavors, aroma, mouthfeel etc right. An understanding of how esters create flavor in brewing... everything from yeasts to fermenting vessel shapes, mashing and fermenting techniques, sugars and their fermentability, hopping ... or "gruit" (if yer that kinda guy) ... the list goes on and on.

That unfortunate comment by Tim Patterson is kinda like grape winemakers comment when, in referring to fruit winemaking, they say "I don't make country wine". (Yah, as if grapes don't grow in the "country"), ... or that “wine” is only made from grapes.

Each discipline is a noble pursuit ... there ought not be such insecurity that anyone feels it necessary to disparage any other brewer or vintner. I am looking to sharpen my skills at brewing AND grape winemaking as time goes on. I like it all.

I think wine has always been associated with upper class and beer with lower/common class, that is why. Is it true? Do I agree with that? Well, I am just saying it has always appeared that has been the general association. That said, I believe some people think if they drink wine they are closer to being better than those who drink beer. Therefore the snobbery.

I just finished reading the home wine making for dummies book about a day ago... And tim Patterson is not the best wine maker in the world and he shows it in his terrible righting style.. And in one point in the book he even says that he doesn't know that much about beer making..... Can't we all just get along... We make alcohol from just every day ingredients we are like [ ] this close away from being gods

jgln said:

I think wine has always been associated with upper class and beer with lower/common class, that is why.

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I'm not sure where/when you're talking about. Most everyone in Europe survived on beer for a very, very long time. Are you talking about American history?

bigbeergeek said:

I'm not sure where/when you're talking about. Most everyone in Europe survived on beer for a very, very long time. Are you talking about American history?

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I don't think I could find any facts in history books and don't feel like looking, but I do feel that is the way it is seen. Just my opinion of my 51+ years on this earth that it has always seemed that way. Why do you think the op noticed it too? Yeah, I guess you could say in my lifetime, I was not around many years ago. I am just going by my observations of some wine drinkers I have met and observed in my lifetime. I have never been to Europe, so yes maybe just here, I don't know.

Before any wine drinkers jump on me, remember I said some. I drink both but mostly beer.

Here in the ozarks Moonshine is king and if you make anything else your a pansy. Sadly im a pansy.

Hoodweisen said:

Here in the ozarks Moonshine is king and if you make anything else your a pansy. Sadly im a pansy.

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Mmm. Distilled, fermented sugar water. The white lightning!

bigbeergeek said:

I'm not sure where/when you're talking about. Most everyone in Europe survived on beer for a very, very long time. Are you talking about American history?

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Thought this kind of amusing, not sure where it came from exactly. Not sure I buy it but you can see where some associate wine drinkers as being superior in several ways. Here, they claim wine drinkers are smarter. Again, I think some people think if they drink wine they ARE superior even if they are not, therefore =snobs.

+++++++++++++++++

Aug 23, 2001 - A study that started out trying to explain the apparent health benefits of drinking red wine suggests that wine drinkers could be smarter than beer drinkers and better adjusted.
The report published in the Archives of Internal Medicine confirms that moderate wine drinkers experience better overall health than either abstainers or those who choose other alcoholic beverages. The conventional view, associated with the now famous French Paradox, is that red wine contains compounds that raise good cholesterol levels and reduce the blood's tendency to clot, promoting overall cardiac health.
However, the researchers conclude, it may not be ingredients in the wine itself. They argue that it's the higher socioeconomic status, elevated IQ, and enhanced personality function of average wine-drinkers that are the probable sources of the good health and comparative longevity they enjoy.
They based their conclusion on data from the Copenhagen City Heart Study, which began tracking changes in health after Denmark joined the European Union in 1973. By tradition a beer-drinking people, the Danes migrated gradually toward wine over the next 25 years. By the 1990s, marked differences could already be observed between wine- and beer-drinking segments of the population.
For example, on tests designed to measure personality function, psychiatric symptoms, and health-related behaviors, wine drinkers routinely outscored beer drinkers, showing fewer neurotic tendencies, and less inclination to anxiety, alcohol abuse, and smoking. Beer drinkers of both sexes had consistently lower IQ scores than wine drinkers. Males who drank beer only averaged 95.2, while wine drinkers scored 113.2.
In light of the strong links already established between intelligence, social status, and psychological well-being, the researchers concluded, the medical benefits associated with wine drinking "are not likely due to the direct physiological effects of the beverage itself."

Saying there are only 2 types of beer (lager & ale) is like saying there are only 2 types of wine ( red & white).

I pee standing up, and I make beer.

I think to be fair to the author, I must point out that is was not an offhand joking comment (IMO). It was a list of like 10 reasons winemakers are better than brewers, or wine is better than beer. I think that is what gets my goat. Why do this?

I think wine is noted as being "better" simply because it's more expensive to make. Think about it.

Grain is abundant. Grapes not as much so. Therefore, the finest wines went to the people who could pay the most. The nobility. It's not so different from beer, where the nobles got the strongest beer, and the lower classes got the 3rd runnings.

It's even been considered that most of the references in the bible to wine, were originally references to beer. The reasoning is that grain grows great in biblical areas, and grapes grow great in Italy. During the rewriting of the Bible, the people in Rome changed the wording to indicate wine, to make the passages seem "better". Since wine is of a more suitable drink. Looking at the passages it's not hard to wonder where all of those grapes came from. Supposedly most of it came from the Romans, who brought it with them and very likely were the ones who drank most of it.

A "fine" wine may be hard to make, and arguably much harder to make than a fine beer. I don't dispute that. But much of it is out of your control. And to be clear I am referencing the large number of Home Winemakers, not the large corporations who control their own vineyards. I am guessing that a lot of the home winemakers aren't making "fine" wines with grapes grown in their own yards. They are probably making passable wine made from their own fruits, or from grapes bought from somewhere else, or from concentrate or juice. So my point is that making wine is not that hard. At least as far as a person making it has the ability to manage the final product.

The bottom line to me is that it comes across as winedrinkers and winemakers are better people than beer drinkers and brewers.

The fact is, is all come down to price and class. A fine wine is more expensive than a fine beer. Granted. But that doesn't necessarily make it a BETTER product. There are plenty of very expensive hand-built exotic cars that can outperform any lower priced mid-sized sedan. But the cost doesn't mean that it will last longer, or have fewer breakdowns per mile. It's just rarer.

I just found the whole section of comparison unnecessary and inflammatory. He tries to cover himself by saying that plenty of winemakers are drinking beer while working with their grapes and even does state that beer drinkers have more fun. But it feels to me as if he had all of these zingers lined up and then kind of hangs his head and admits that even though brewers are lower class people, they can dance better...

Not just that, though. In actuality he gives false information about brewers and beermaking while giving his so-called humour.

I would rather have seen a section comparing the two hobbies instead of contrasting them. I'd rather have seen a brothership instead of a battleship. There are more things in common between the two hobbies than there are differences (when FACTS are admitted).

Maybe he needs to come across as a jerk in order to be taken seriously by people who want to learn how to make wine?

I was not impressed with the book as much as I am impressed with the Homebrewing for Dummies book. His choice of topic is strictly Red and White Wines, with anything else kind of being a afterthought. I glossed over the technical section because I really needed to find out what to do with my grapes before they start rotting. Perhaps there is some good info in there. But overall, the book seemed like a wine snobs answer to learning how to make wine, not a comprehensive book for the average person to make wine at home. I think it's geared toward those who have started going to fancy wine tastings, and kind of got hooked on hanging with the fancy types with tall noses and want to impress their new fancy friends than the average person.

Maybe that's just what the view looks like from down here.

Dang, that is one long post!

Also, if anyone is interested, I can help you find the book online. I can even PM or email that section if you really want to judge for yourself. I'd hate to give people the wrong impression, and would prefer they make up their own minds if they care.

Homercidal said:

I know I don't "get" wine. I don't care for the fruity, dry, tart flavors. I can't sense the subtle nuances that define a <insert hoity toity wine name here>. But I don't discourage people from winemaking, or poo poo the hobby or connoisseurs of fine wine.

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Hey, I don't care for the bitter, skanky flavors I taste in beer. But I don't care if beer people like it, or if brewers like to make their own.

There is obviously only one solution to huesmann and homercidal's problems respectively... start making and drinking beerwine. Or winebeer. You know, mix them both in one big jug...

Sorry guys Im overtired.