Red Lager or Vienna Lager

So, I'm looking at brewing a beer that I've never had before, a Leinenkugel's Red Lager. I've looked at their web page and made it as close I could. I have a friend who loves this beer and as a going a way gift I'm making it for him. This year I'm delving into lagers and this is my first one. This is what I have, what do you think?

Wort Volume Before Boil: 6.08 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 5.28 US gals
Volume Transferred: 5.28 US gals
Water Added: 0.00 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 5.28 US gals
Final Batch Volume: 5.02 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043 SG
Expected OG: 1.050 SG
Expected FG: 1.012 SG
Expected ABV: 5.0 %
Expected ABW: 3.9 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 20.0
Expected Color: 10.7 SRM
Apparent Attenuation: 74.9 %
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 50 degF

Fermentables
German Vienna Malt 4lb 12oz (46.6 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Munich Malt 1lb 14oz (18.6 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Pilsner Malt 1lb 14oz (18.6 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Caramel Pils 15.13 oz (9.3 %) In Mash/Steeped
US Caramel 90L Malt 11.05 oz (6.8 %) In Mash/Steeped

Hops
US Cluster (7.5 % alpha) 0.42 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 60 Min From End
US Mount Hood (4.5 % alpha) 0.42 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 30 Min From End
US Mount Hood (4.5 % alpha) 0.42 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 10 Min From End

Other Ingredients

Yeast: DCL W-34/70 Saflager

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name:Helles Yeah
Step: Rest at 122 degF for 20 mins
Step: Pull decoction, boil, add back raising mash to 140 degF for 20 mins
Step: Rest at 140 degF for 20 mins
Step: Pull decoction, boil, add back raising mash to 152 degF for 20 mins
Step: Rest at 152 degF for 20 mins
Step: Pull decoction, boil, add back raising mash to 168 degF for 20 mins
Step: Raise to and Mash out at 168 degF for 0 mins

Recipe Notes

15% crystal is WAY too much for a Vienna lager. Keep it less than 2% or eliminate it entirely. Use a little dehusked carafa for some color.

Thanks for the feedback. It says on their web page they use caramel and carapils as well as 3 pale malts. I'll cut back on the crystal for sure.

I think this looks better.


Fermentables
German Vienna Malt 4lb 12oz (47.9 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Munich Malt 3lb 0oz (30.4 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Pilsner Malt 1lb 14oz (19.2 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Carafa III 2.00 oz (1.3 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Caramel Pils 2.00 oz (1.3 %) In Mash/Steeped

Carapils and Caramel Pils are different beasts. Carapils is a dextrin malt, caramel pils a sweet crystal malts.

Either way, sounds like a good beer, especially with the decoctions.

Alright, I brewed this a little over 10 days ago. The brew day was long, this being my second time trying the decoction mash, it went just OK. when I thought I took enough thick mash, I didn't. Also, didn't hit the numbers spot on, but pretty close. For the mash out I took just some thin mash, boiled and then added to hit 167ish. ALSO: I added 2oz of 90L crystal. Thought it was the carafa III. stupid I know.

The boil went well, I cooled it and saw I was a half gallon short of my target volume. It was 1.066. I boiled and added a half gallon of water to hit only 1.064. I don't think that's right, maybe not mixed well enough. Anyway, I pitched the yeast at 58*, two packets of 34/70. It took off quick. The sample I took the initial gravity from was unbelievable. Really, it was really great for wort. I told my wife that I wanted to just carbonate and drink as a soda.

Fast forward to last night, took a gravity reading and it's at 1.016. Smelled horrible, wet dog, rotten eggs ect. I know that's the yeast, the other lager I did before this one with the same yeast was exact same. Anyway, I know this is way too early to get any idea about this beer, but I'm worried at how thin it tasted, nothing like I though.

My question is does a malt backbone develop over time, or should it show from the front? I'm not too worried, but just curious. I thought this beer would have more body with the decoction mashing. I didn't think that developed with lagering.

Vienna lagers (at least the mexican variety) are traditionally not super full-bodied. And most if not all of the Leinies beers have some corn in them, I believe. The real deal isn't a chewy beer, so don't sweat it.

If you went in at 1.064 you will have a stronger beer than the real thing, I'm pretty sure.

I'd love to hear how it finally turns out. Leinie's Red was the first craft beer I really took to so I owe it bigtime. From there to Leinie's Creamy Dark to...and the rest was history. I realize that neither of those beers are really world-beaters but definitely good, and I'll never turn one down.

Racked to the keg this evening. My hydro sample spilled so I didn't get a final gravity, but when I poor the first glass I'll get it then. I'm waiting on new lines. The little bit that I did get showed that this beer has really shaped up. Very clean taste. It has more body then I thought it would, but finishes dry. I think 3-4 more weeks lagering and this will be a fantastic beer. I really like it so far.

Well, this is more like an Alt than a Vienna, but after a good lagering it's a great beer. Entered it into a competition as an Alt and it scored a respectable 37. The only thing that kept it from winning was not enough hop bitterness.

sudndeth said:

It has more body then I thought it would, but finishes dry. I think 3-4 more weeks lagering and this will be a fantastic beer. I really like it so far.

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That's the sign of a good Vienna Lager right there, it's malty with a good body, but finishes dry so that you can pour another. Congrats!!

I do a nice malty Vienna beer with 7lb Vienna, 2lb Munich, 12oz Aromatic, 6oz Dark Crystal (Carabohemian usually) and 2oz Carafa III Special. I like that blend a lot, but it does take about 3 months of lagering to get that "crispness" just right. :rockin:

This beer was a lesson in patience and the effect of lagering on beer. I've tasted it throughout and it's amazing how it has changed. Your recipe looks pretty good.

Well done! Did your friend like it?

20 IBU's is going to be quite a bit under the standard for an Alt (probably about right for Leinie's Red...), but definitely a good tasty beer. Did you find it to be dry enough to handle that low of bittering? To me, it doesn't matter if the beer fits standard as long as it's tasty.

I am always amazed and delighted between beer going into Secondary and beer coming out of Lagering. It is a constant reminder that the worst thing you can do to homebrew is be impatient.

sudndeth said:

Well, this is more like an Alt than a Vienna, but after a good lagering it's a great beer. Entered it into a competition as an Alt and it scored a respectable 37. The only thing that kept it from winning was not enough hop bitterness.

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This beer is still in the keg. I took a taste for the first time in 6 months and it was awesome. An all around easy drinking beer. You're right the worst thing we can do is be impatient