Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

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ashmgee - I'm glad someone is getting some use from the info.

An Orval clone is where a lot of people start when getting into wild beers and using dregs. Mainly because it is really easy and the results are great. I have not used Orval dregs, but similar. (I have a few bottles of Orval waiting for a vertical tasting). I have read several accounts of great success.

To answer your questions:
3 months?
Time limits don't work well for wild beers (or any beers for that matter) because they depend on so many factors. I have used a bottle of Mikkeler It's Alright dregs in a gallon which supposedly used the same Orval Brett B strain. (reminds me I need to do a tasting)

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/03/dreg-series-mikkeller-its-alright.html

The beer was stabilized and bottled in about 3 or 4 months. But that involved checking the gravity twice.

Orval is a very interesting beer and you should try to do a vertical tasting of some, fresh, 1 year old and 2 year old vintages. You will see a big difference.

The issue with bottling is that it will pick up carbonation as it ages and without brewing the same beer for a hundred years you can't be certain how much it will carbonate. So to be safe us homebrewers wait till it stabilizes. If you do the math, every gravity point drop is around .5 volume of CO2. I'm not sure what the Grolsch bottles are rated for so do your research.

No worries on disturbing the pellicle you will just want to avoid doing it very often and try not to completely destroy it. I take sample every 3 months and don't have a problem with oxidation or acetic acid. Oxidation from bulk aging is really not a problem with these types of beer.

I have never been convinced that bulk aging is much different than bottle aging (unless using a barrel or wood aging). The main issue is to avoid over carbonation.

In Summary,
Go for it. Brew a nice dry blond base beer that will finish low. (The lower it finishes the less concern with over carbonation.) In secondary, add a bottle or 2 (anymore probably won't make a difference) of Orval. Check the gravity at 2 months and 3 months. If no drop in gravity, bottle to 2.5-3 Volumes and make sure your bottles can handle up to 4-5 Volumes and you should be safe.
 
Bayerischer Bahnhof Leipziger Porticus - what a cool sounding beer - where did you find that bottle?

If it is bottle conditioned I would imagine the Brett is still viable. Make a small starter in the bottle to find out.

And a persimmon brown ale with Brett sounds very good. I wonder what strain of Brett is in the Bayerischer. You may be able to email the brewer and ask. I find most people in this industry are happy to share info.

I added persimmons to a pale base beer with Russian River dregs and I'm looking forward to see how those flavors mesh.

Sorry for the delay in response. I just cracked this open today. It had a wonderful brett aroma (balsamic and barnyard mostly). Unfortunately, it didn't taste nearly as funky as it smelled. You can tell there was a slight brett influence, but it was mostly overrun by the roasted malts.

I got it from a fine wine and beer retailer here in Indy. It hasn't been rated a whole lot on beeradvocate, so it must be a bit of a rare find. The shophand recommended it to me.

I just made a small 1 cup starter. Time to see if it is viable. I would love to have this in my persimmon brown.
 
Another thought, what dregs have you used so far? Could this smell be an over-the-top Belgian phenol?

Could be, I fermented two of them spontaneously for a month and then added Jolly pumpkin dregs. As it was smelling exactly like the bung I assumed it was that. I'll wait to see if the third (S05 and Hansenns) develops the same smell.
 
Random-ish question: when you bottle these 1 gallon batches, do you use a regular bottling bucket, or some kind of... mini bottling bucket? I always have trouble getting that last little bit out of the bucket, and with such a small batch to begin with, I'd worry about losing any of it.
 
Great idea!

So I have a new idea when it comes to making sour beer. So here are the complaints that I often hear about making sour beer:
1) Don't want to mess up the rest of your equipment
2) You don't have enough space to store the beer
3) You don't want to buy more equipment just to store beer
4) It can take a long time and you might not end up with a good beer.

I think I have the answer, well at least for myself. With the exception of a few styles (Flanders Red, Oud Bruin, and pLambic) I have decided to brew small 1 gal batches. By doing this I can use 1 gal jugs that are pretty cheap ($5.50 with cider at Whole Foods or $8 at the Homebrew Store). I brew every 3 weeks so by then I can drink a gallon of cider (without too many of the bad consequences), the other alternative which I have tried is to take whatever yeast I'm using at that time and pitch some in the store cider.

Ok so you now you either think yeah I like doing small batches for the ability to test an idea OR you think they are a waste of time and expensive. For you that think the later here is how I appease you. Another problem with making sour beers is that they do not perform well when the IBUs are high. So my idea is after making my wort and bringing it to a boil, I will add my bittering hops. And within a specified time depending on the amount of IBUs you want I will run-off some wort into my gallon container. Yes I understand it is boiling, but I have preheated the container under hot water and have not had a problem. I then cool this wort in the sink.

For yeast I do not buy any commercial yeast because to me that is cost prohibitive but I will pitch the dregs from a sour beer. This is nice because I have a great excuse to buy great beer and I have a nice beer to drink as I finish making the rest of the base batch. I try to buy a beer that I want my beer to have similar results. Make sure that you cool the bottle and let it settle, the longer the better. Pour the beer slowly and stop with about an ounce left in the bottle. Swish this remaining beer up very well (~minute), then pitch into you gallon container.

For these beers, I am fermenting that at ambient temperature which is 68-75F. I am starting these out using an airlock, then pitch some boiled oak cubes (.2-.4oz) depending on the beer and the taste that I want. I can then bottle these beers with separate tubing and if I like the beer than I can make a full batch the following year and use the gallon container as a starter.


I will update with my results.

Kreik (Old Beersel Framboise dregs)

Sour Pale Common (Petrus dregs)

Black Jolly Sour (Jolly Pumkin Bam Noire dregs)
 
That is a good question. I have ended up using kegs (usually my 2.5 gal version) as my bottling bucket. I lose less than a few ounces and reduce the risk of oxidation.

I tilt the keg and pour the beer from the jug into the keg. With these small batches there is really no need to risk infection by racking the beer. Plus I probably pick up less oxygen this way. Then I dump in my priming sugar and yeast if needed. Purge the keg and swirl the keg to get good mixing. Then set my regulator at 1-2 psi and fill bottles with my picnic tap.

I typically get 8 or 9 - 12oz beers plus a 4 oz hydrometer sample. But it really depends on the batch (fill level and amount of fruit added).
 
Sorry for the delay in response. I just cracked this open today. It had a wonderful brett aroma (balsamic and barnyard mostly). Unfortunately, it didn't taste nearly as funky as it smelled. You can tell there was a slight brett influence, but it was mostly overrun by the roasted malts.

I got it from a fine wine and beer retailer here in Indy. It hasn't been rated a whole lot on beeradvocate, so it must be a bit of a rare find. The shophand recommended it to me.

I just made a small 1 cup starter. Time to see if it is viable. I would love to have this in my persimmon brown.

So two nights ago, I took my brown ale and transferred some on to 2 one-gallon jugs each with 2 lbs of smushed persimmons. I had half a gallon left over, so I bottled it as is. I pitched the dregs of the Porticus in to one of the jugs and left the other be. Best I can tell, they used Brett Claussenii. I've read that export stouts and porters sometimes naturally obtained a mild brett character, so this would jive with the style of beer.

I wanted to wait longer to pitch to see if my Brett starter was 100% viable, but I needed to free up a 5 gallon carboy. Fermentation has started again in both gallon jugs.

Now I want to know what I can expect from this. I checked the FG and it is 1.011 down from 1.046. The persimmons should add a few gravity points. The ale sits at about 21 IBU and really seems like a perfect vehicle for the Brett. If left alone, how low should I expect the FG to go? Should I heat up an ounce or two of DME and pitch it to feed my brett?
 
Sounds pretty good. I just bottled 1 gallon of my Belgian Golden Strong with Russian River dregs and 1 lb of fresh then frozen persimmons. It's about 14 months old and is now getting very sour. Some of that is probably due to the acidity of the persimmons.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/10/dreg-series-russian-river-golden-sour.html

I personally really like darker beers that have a bit of roast and funk. I'm getting excited about my Old Ale that was pitched with Brett C and has been aging for a year.

The persimmons probably won't add much alcohol depending on their sugar content because of the amount of offsetting water.

It is about impossible to guess the final gravity. It just depends on so many variables. What temp did you mash? Mash thickness? What Sacc strain? and even if I did know that it is still a guess.

My advice would be to let it go for a few months. Measure gravity and take a taste. Then adjust from there. You can add more fruit, dextrose, lactose, DME, fresh wort or nothing. What you add depends on where you envision the beer going.
 
Thank you for the quick response. I mashed at 152 using the BiaB method. I tried to mash higher, but did not hit my temperature like I wanted. I used S04 as my yeast. My question about the FG was more about me making sure that what I did can produce some level of funk. For now I'll leave it alone and check back on it some time in late winter.

And I'm interested myself in trying a a strong, dark sour ale. Porticus would have been perfect had the funk been upped 20%. I plan on doing a Kate the Great clone and try to sour a gallon of that. I have a bottle JP Oro De Calabaza, but it's a couple years old. I may try something else for my souring.
 
Let me clarify something about adding bugs. I should really change the title of this thread from "sour" to "wild" (actually I need a better name since these yeasts and bacteria aren't really wild anymore)

If you add just Brettanomyces, depending on the strain, you may or may not get any sourness. The amount of acid produced also depends on the amount of oxygen and available food sources. And most typically Brett will produce acetic acid.

If oxygen and the food sources are kept low then very little or no acid will be produced. But you will still develop the funky smells and flavors that Brett is known for. And the amount of funkiness is mostly dependent on the amount of time from my experience. Orval is a great example of this.

Most of the souring will come from pediococcus and/or lactobacillus. The are lactic acid producers which also happens to be the most mild and preferred acid. So if a certain level of sourness is wanted then make sure that these bacteria have food when they are active in the wort.

The reason I say this is because you need to know what organisms are in the dregs and condition of your wort so that you know the possibilities of the finished beer.

For example, I like roasty, malty beers with funk, but in my opinion I don't think that very much sourness mixes well with roast. So if I'm adding dregs to achieve this, I will first ferment out the beer with a relatively high attenuating English strain then add dregs that are Brett only. It is also important to make the wort knowing it will be aged for a long time, so I would mash extra high to ensure the malt and body feel full.
 
I think I'm gonna head to my LHBS and buy a bunch of these gallon jugs and start doing this! I love this idea!
 
Mr.Dank - I'm surprised you haven't tried this before.

I no longer make 5 gal batches, everything I make now is 6-7 gal. It really doesn't take anymore time. And for beers of normal gravity, all the grain will still fit in my 5 gal igloo mash tun (I found 15 lbs is about the limit).

Well, the next step in this thread is to start trading some of these beers. That way all of us can use the dregs from the swapped bottles to get access to yeast and bugs we can't get where we live.

Let me know if anyone is interested.
 
I think I'm gonna head to my LHBS and buy a bunch of these gallon jugs and start doing this! I love this idea!

If I may make a humble recommendation, go to your closest upscale grocery store and get a gallon of apple juice in a glass bottle instead. Since it's still technically, barely, vaguely fall there should be some in stock. My LHBS sells jugs for $5 plus tax and I can get a gallon of apple juice for $7.00. For me it's a no-brainer. You can either spend the next several weeks drinking lots of apple juice, make apple jelly, or a big, honking batch of hard cider (or all three).
 
I'm going to midwest brew supply right now as it's barely 1 mile from my office! I have 10 gallons of Blonde ale at home and I think 2 gallons are gonna get funktified!

My blonde was fermented in Primary half on Belgian Ardenes, and the other have on American Ale. I'll put 1 gallon of each into a gallon jug and then I need to decide on which dregs to put on them. I have some Le Prof flemish ale in my cellar, I also have some Jolly Pumpkin. Now that I think about it I have a couple Telegraph beers in my cellar that I've been itching to drink. Any thoughts? Suggestions?
 
Cool thread. I've been brewing small batch sours for a couple years now. I normally brew a light base beer with Pilsner and wheat malts and aim for an OG of 1.060 . The 5 gallon batch is fermented for 2-3 days with my favorite belgian yeast 3724. After 48 hours the gravity is around 1.035 (the beer is about half way done fermenting) At this point I transfer the beer to four 1 gallon jugs and pitch dregs.

I do the initial fermentation with 3724 for two reasons. The mixture of brett and pedio with a belgian base is the perfect combination for my taste buds. I've tried making sours with a neutral yeast like 1056 and to me they come across one dimensional.

The second reason is that your beer will be done faster. Most of my sours finish around 1.005. So that's only a drop of 30 gravity points, which depending on the dregs can happen within a month. Not that you shouldn't let the beer condition longer, but a pre-fermentation can cut your time in half, and make for an awesome wild brew. -Cheers
 
Yup, that is my recommendation also. I thought I wrote that somewhere. I get a gallon of cider for $5.50 or organic cider for $6.50 at Henry's, Whole Foods or Boney's (Not sure how widespread those stores are)

If you are going to buy several at a time you should take the opportunity to do a yeast comparison. Hopefully you already have the yeast on hand.

I've tried a few so far with mixed results:
- Chimay yeast - pretty tasty and unique fruit flavors
- English yeast - WLP005 - made a very rough cider, not a lot of apple flavor but tastes pretty close to commercial hard ciders in England
- Scottish yeast - WLP028 - similar to the English yeast but I should have fermented cooler.
- California Common yeast - my favorite cider, preserved a lot of apple flavor and had a nice crisp after taste
- Saison Cider - Wyest 3711 - a bit strange, not sure how well the flavors mix. Might be better with he Dupont strain.

Bikes, Beer, and Adventures: Beer Recipes

And I realized I never posted about the Scottish or Saison ciders. Probably because I wasn't too excited about them.

I would really like to try a lager yeast and Brett only next.
 
Other then the usual suspects like RR and JP, I'v had success with dregs from other wild ales. The beers listed below have all made interesting sour beers. I didn't have much luck with Goose Island - Lolita or Lost Abbey - Red Poppy.

Allagash - coolship Red
Weyerbacher - Riserva
The Bruery - Sour in the Rye
Captain Lawrence - Rosso E Marrone
Avery - Immitis

I made one of my favorite wild ales without dregs. It was made by fermenting a beer half way with 3724 then transferring 1 gallon onto 2 lbs of freshly picked raspberries from a local farm. It fermented super dry from the wild yeast, and had a beautiful yet funky sourness. Just a lovely wild framboise. Using farm fresh fruit instead of dregs can work very well.
 
Dank - Somehow I missed your question.

My blonde was fermented in Primary half on Belgian Ardenes, and the other have on American Ale. I'll put 1 gallon of each into a gallon jug and then I need to decide on which dregs to put on them. I have some Le Prof flemish ale in my cellar, I also have some Jolly Pumpkin. Now that I think about it I have a couple Telegraph beers in my cellar that I've been itching to drink. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Le Prof? is it the Reinaert Flemish Wild Ale? I actually just opened one last week that had been sitting around for over a year. It was pretty good, nothing super special, but had some nice funk. I decided to add the dregs to some of my Belgian Dubbel. And it had some nice pellicle bubbles in a few days. I'll post about is shortly.

Jolly Pumpkin is great and aggressive - if you like their beers you will like the dregs. And you can get a pretty quick turn-around on these beers.

Telegraph - Haven't used them yet. But I have a bottle of Petite Obscura that I will try soon.
 
Waylit -
What type of wort of you pairing with your dregs?
And what combinations have been successful for you?

I like the idea of using wild yeast from fruit. I have tried it also with 50% success. I tried with orange blossoms, but ended up with a phenolic soup that was undrinkable. The other one that was successful was from wild grapes that I picked in East County San Diego. They added just a hint of funk to a Belgian Dubbel I brewed last year. That batch is still aging, but I'll try it soon.

dantheman13 - Here is a good thread over at BBB.
The Burgundian Babble Belt -- Pushing the Homebrew Envelope
In short, no one I can find has experiencewith Cascade dregs, but it looks very possible. I have been meaning to try this soon. If you do try it please give us an update.
 
I segmented out two seperate gallons of my Blonde ale which was in Primary with 1056. I also picked up some bottles for pitching...
  1. Jolly Pumpkin Oro de Calabaza (biere de garde)
  2. St. Somewhere - Lactio Devina (belgian strong pale)
 
passedpawn said:
Some good ideas here. I've been putting off sours for a long time because of the reasons you mention. Recent trip to Russian River in Cali has me considering getting started. Thanks for the tips.

RRs sours are amazing. Pliny is not the best thing coming out of that brewery by any means.
 
Some good ideas here. I've been putting off sours for a long time because of the reasons you mention. Recent trip to Russian River in Cali has me considering getting started. Thanks for the tips.

Same here! I decided to sour half of my christmas ale. And then remembered the bacteria doesn't do well in hoppy beers. I'm at 60ibu or so. What do you think?
 
Dank-
I have heard good things about the Brett strain in St. Somewhere but haven't got to try that one myself. Please post when you have some results.

Double D-
What type of beer is the Christmas Ale? Is this beer hoppy or did bitter to 60 IBUs to balance the sweetness?

The 60 IBUs will deter the lacto from producing acid, but will not effect the Brett. So the beer will probably come out with some funk and very little sourness if any.
 
Dank-
I have heard good things about the Brett strain in St. Somewhere but haven't got to try that one myself. Please post when you have some results.

Double D-
What type of beer is the Christmas Ale? Is this beer hoppy or did bitter to 60 IBUs to balance the sweetness?

The 60 IBUs will deter the lacto from producing acid, but will not effect the Brett. So the beer will probably come out with some funk and very little sourness if any.

I emailed Bob from St. Somewhere about culturing from their bottle. He said that it might be tough as they bottle with champagne yeast. I'm gonna try anyways though! I'll keep the temp as low as possible in order to inhibit the champagne yeast as much as possible. He did say that if anyone comes by the brewery, he'd be happy to pull some yeast from any of their fermenters to take home.
Here's a direct quote from him..
"All our beers are open fermented, which allows some native wild yeast, and Brett. to do their thing along with the house yeast. All our beers develop a Brett. presence from the environment. I try to encourage it to some extent. I want it there, but not overwhelmingly. - Bob Sylvester
 
Just thought i'd throw a little update. This is my Belgian Golden at 2.5 months. Scummy bubbles are now covering the top. To recap: partial mash, 1.060, dregs used Two Brothers Askew, Supplication.

 
This thread has inspired me and it's been dead for a bit so I wanted to resurrect it and see if anyone had any updates on experiments they've done.

I pitched the dregs from a Jolly Pumpkin Oro de Calabaza into 1.75 gallons of Belgian pale ale wort (BCS) on November 5th. OG 1.059.

Gravity on December 10: 1.034. Tasted like band-aids marinated in lemon juice.

Gravity on December 23: 1.010. Tastes pretty goddamn amazing. I'll check gravity again in a 3-4 weeks and bottle if ready. I'm pretty optimistic.

Already planning my next sour based on what people have said on this thread and the Mad Fermentationist's web site (a great resource).
 
It's my 'Bug Barn'.........It's funky.

ForumRunner_20111227_112908.jpg
 
BrewDocND -
Interesting results. I'm a little surprised the flavor change so much in 2 weeks between tastings, but at least it is for the better. Make sure the gravity has stabilized before you decide to bottle and please read all the good bottling threads on HBT.

And thanks for the wake-up call. I have a bunch of updates that will be coming shortly.
 
I've been lurking this thread and decided to try this technique as well. I've got a bottle of JP Bam Noire and a batch of closet cleaner/dead guy-ish ready to bottle. It's at 1.020 and 35 IBUs. I hope not too hoppy. I expect to rack and bottle this weekend. I'll report progress.
 
BrewDocND -
Interesting results. I'm a little surprised the flavor change so much in 2 weeks between tastings, but at least it is for the better. Make sure the gravity has stabilized before you decide to bottle and please read all the good bottling threads on HBT.

And thanks for the wake-up call. I have a bunch of updates that will be coming shortly.

I believe I misspoke a bit when I said I would bottle in 3-4 weeks. I meant I would check again in 3-4 weeks and wait until my gravity was stable for a month before bottling. I have set aside "wild" bottling equipment and have plenty of experience bottling small batches.

I was shocked at the change too. The temp here has been wildly inconsistent. It was under 50 in my apartment for the first 10 days of fermentation because our power went out here in CT. Now I try to hold it at 68, but my apartment doesn't hold heat very well and the thermostat is wacky so IDK how consistent that is. anywhere from 60-74 I think.
 
quick question, how are you guys pulling samples for gravity readings from gallon batches? do you sanitize your sample tube and dump back in or just consider it a taste?
just wondering because the more beer that makes it to the end the better, right?

i usually use a sanitized wine thief for my high gravity, regular yeast, special small batch brews and just drain the beer back into the carboys after taking a reading in the wine thief, but just concerned that the wine thief will keep some bugs with it. i don't mind keeping a separate wine thief, but also don't want to be mixing bug small batch with different bug small batch (at least for now as i experiment with different bugs and their flavors).
 
yeah, not stainless. just wondering how to keep from testing samples so i have some sour beer in a year or so.

b
 
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