BCS-460 Beta Test

I just found out I get mine Thursday or Friday, so expect another thread to get started!

Can the control cable to the temp probe be removed to remove the keggles for washing without wash water damaging the temp probe terminals and socket end? I can picture the keggle rolling onto the brass probe and mashing those soft brass threads making the probe a useless item. If not waterproof plus protecting the threads with the cable disconnected will there be a end cap available that can be screwed onto the temp probe when the cable is removed like a automotive schrader valve stem cap before washing? Keggles electrically heated with the power and temp cords removed would prevent unnecessary cable and cord wear and tear plus the PITA of them in the way while cleaning the keggles at the end of a long brew day.

Can the control cable to the temp probe be removed to remove the keggles for washing without wash water damaging the temp probe terminals and socket end?

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Yeah, the temperature probes have a nice little compression fitting that goes around the temperature probe and is finger tightened(or a little bit more)...that comes right off, probe slides out and you can manipulate the keggle freely at that point. And it goes back in just as easy and is water tight without any messing around with teflon tape.

p4ck37p1mp said:

I just found out I get mine Thursday or Friday, so expect another thread to get started!

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Can I come over and check it out..? I might still pick up that 2-row if your willing to get rid of a sack.

np0x said:

Yeah, the temperature probes have a nice little compression fitting that goes around the temperature probe and is finger tightened(or a little bit more)...that comes right off, probe slides out and you can manipulate the keggle freely at that point. And it goes back in just as easy and is water tight without any messing around with teflon tape.

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That means you must loosen the compression nut which compresses the rubber or soft compressable washer around the probe then remove the probe and cable feeding it before removing and cleaning the keggles everytime at the end of a brewing session. What a PITA to replace the probe with a rod of the same diameter to prevent a leak you created by removing the temp probe and cable that's dangling so you can remove the keggle to properly clean it after every use. A new system put on the market fast as possible with good features but not 100% friendly to use or complete and functional unless it must be disassembled every time.
A quick race to market with a new item must mean fast profits vs any delays to correct a completely clean and simple to use system. Sorry I smell money as the priority here. Months ago I stated take your time on this project and make it right. Does this mean to remove the kettles for cleaning means removing the temp probe cable and adding a Trojan with rubber bands on the temp probe connection? Sounds like there is no waterproof cap available to protect the probe terminals not alone the threads from mechanical damge as brass threads are easy to damage. Just had to comment my disappointment to what started out as a great idea gone to market too fast. JMO's not to start a flame war.

Double post from above, don't get me wrong the 460 is the best item on the market by far and yes one will be on my system in some future time.

np0x said:

Yeah, the temperature probes have a nice little compression fitting that goes around the temperature probe and is finger tightened(or a little bit more)...that comes right off, probe slides out and you can manipulate the keggle freely at that point. And it goes back in just as easy and is water tight without any messing around with teflon tape.

Click to expand...

That means you must loosen the compression nut which compresses the rubber or soft compressable washer around the probe then remove the probe and cable feeding it before removing and cleaning the keggles everytime at the end of a brewing session. What a PITA to replace the probe with a rod of the same diameter to prevent a leak you just created by removing the temp probe hanging by the cable that's dangling while you remove the keggle to properly clean it after every use. A new system put on the market fast as possible with good features but not 100% simple friendly to use or complete and functional unless it must be disassembled every time. This will get old quick.
Was this a quick race to market for fast profits vs any added delays to correct and build a completely clean and simple to use system? Sorry I smell money as the priority here. Months ago I stated take your time on this project and make it right. This means to remove the kettles for cleaning everytime is to remove the temp probe cable then adding a Trojan with rubber band on the temp probe connection? Sounds like there is no waterproof cap available to protect the probe terminals not alone the threads from mechanical damge as brass threads are easy to damage. Just had to comment my disappointment to what started out as a great idea that's gone to market too fast. JMO's not to start a flame war.

BrewBeemer said:

That means you must loosen the compression nut which compresses the rubber or soft compressable washer around the probe then remove the probe and cable feeding it before removing and cleaning the keggles everytime at the end of a brewing session. What a PITA to replace the probe with a rod of the same diameter to prevent a leak you just created by removing the temp probe hanging by the cable that's dangling while you remove the keggle to properly clean it after every use. A new system put on the market fast as possible with good features but not 100% simple friendly to use or complete and functional unless it must be disassembled every time. This will get old quick.
Was this a quick race to market for fast profits vs any added delays to correct and build a completely clean and simple to use system? Sorry I smell money as the priority here. Months ago I stated take your time on this project and make it right. This means to remove the kettles for cleaning everytime is to remove the temp probe cable then adding a Trojan with rubber band on the temp probe connection? Sounds like there is no waterproof cap available to protect the probe terminals not alone the threads from mechanical damge as brass threads are easy to damage. Just had to comment my disappointment to what started out as a great idea that's gone to market too fast. JMO's not to start a flame war.

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To start with there is no reason a simple electrical quick disconnect couldn't be wired into the system so there was no need to remove the thermisters, the additional resistance of any additional wire or connectors is not relevant at the 10,000 ohm level the thermisters work.

Money is not the priority here(IMHO), I am not affiliated with the maker of the unit other than to be a beta tester, the device has been thoroughly built out PRIOR to the beginning of any trials/beta testing, and he has been very quality centric in the beta testing process actively soliciting input as to how to make the unit better, easy to use and generally extensible. The level of effort being put into to make the unit is extensive AND if you don't like the temperature probes you can get from him, any other 10,000 ohm (type n i believe) temperature probe can be used instead. Additionally the design is very open so if you want to use a different probe the system has facilities to enter the relevant details into the unit so it will read the alternate thermisister accurately. (Adam can speak more intelligently to that).

I have seen other products that easily fall into the vaporware or slipshod category, I don't see that here.

The first handful of units are shipping this week and again in the spirit of quality only a small handful of units are being shipped both because of the care being put into the fabrication, and getting it right from the start.

With regards to cleaning I do clean in place unless I want to fully disassemble my brewery at which point I can (admittedly) remove the thermsisters, if I need to move any of the keggles.

Does that help at all? (hrm, rereading the above, I guess I am a bit defensive of the level of effort being put into the thing, hope I didn't offend ya! But I do mean it.)

Don't mean to continute to get things riled up here... But I think some of you are missing the obvious. Yes the purpose is to get a product to market quickly, after all it's not a great product that sells in the beginning, it's name recognition...or being the first on the market. The lasting effects of quality come later after there are several competitors established. Either way, that's not what I wanted to talk about... sorry for the rant.

I've got temp probes in my system, and it's very similar to the system Slnies has... hell, he helped me build it. At every point that the plumbing enters any of my vessels, I place a threaded copper union. All of my probes are "in-line" as part of the plumbing. I never need to worry about screwing up my probes, because they are not in the kettles.

BrewBeemer said:

Was this a quick race to market for fast profits vs any added delays to correct and build a completely clean and simple to use system? Sorry I smell money as the priority here.

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The reason that I chose these probes is that you don't need a thermowell. They can be immersed in hot/boiling wort directly with an easy leakfree connection.

That being said, there is nothing stopping you from using a thermowell. The probes are 1/4" in diameter, not coincidentally the same as the standard thermowell inside diameter. With the thermowell installed on your system, you could remove the probe for cleaning without fear of a leaking void.

The probe housing is very rugged 304 Stainless Steel. As previously mentioned, it comes with a Brass bulkhead and compression sleeve. If you don't like Brass, please just think of the bulkhead as a nice free paperweight. Each system/brewer is different, so it would be impossible to offer every imaginable probe connection option.

Cheers!
Adam

I'm using a recirculating system today with 2 external electrical heat exchangers. My temp probes are external from my MLT and HLT. I attach to them using quick disconnects. When I disconnect, the temp probes stay with the hose and I can then clean the kegs with no fear of damage, no wires flopping around and no delicate electronics to protect. This is similar to how Lonnie wired the brutus 10.

I really want to upgrade to this system instead of using the Love controls I am using now and I plan to once the design stabilizes.

Linc

Pictures please! I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to rig my system once I get the bcs. I could use any help you all offer.

One question. I see one of the other testers using his to control a fermentation system. Does the PC need to stay connected in order for this to happen, or can you program the BCS, then disconnect the PC and let it do it's thing. Could you program a 5 day ferment at say 50 degrees, 1 day at 60 for a diacetyl rest, then go to 32 to lager without having the laptop connected?

Linc

p4ck37p1mp said:

Pictures please! I've been trying to figure out how I'm going to rig my system once I get the bcs. I could use any help you all offer.

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I'll let somebody else post pictures. My system while very functional is not as aesthetically pleasing as others have. Do to space constraints, I am currently using a system that can be completely broken down and stored away. The drawbacks are set-up time and durability. I'm working to re-build things yet again to make set-up faster and easier.

Linc

missing link said:

Could you program a 5 day ferment at say 50 degrees, 1 day at 60 for a diacetyl rest, then go to 32 to lager without having the laptop connected?

Linc

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No, the PC doesn't need to stay connected. Once its programmed and running, you can disconnect the PC and it runs stand alone.

For your fermentation process, this is a great example of using the state machine interface to program it. There are 3 points in time where the outputs are unique, so it can be programmed using 3 states:

State0 - Fermentation
Outputs = Hold at 50deg
Exit Condition = if Timer>=5days, goto State1

State1 - Diacetyl Rest
Outputs = Hold at 60deg
Exit Condition = if Timer>=1day, goto State2

State2 - Lager
Outputs = Ramp from 60 to 32 in 3days (ramp mode)
Exit Condition = None (hold here until user stops)

1 other question. Does the computer need to be connected to make changes or can a wireless card be attached somehow?

it would be interesting to be able to monitor things wirelessly.

Linc

The controller has a standard RJ45 Ethernet jack. Wireless to wired converters (usually branded as access points) can be easily purchased if you want wireless, they are about $50 or more, depending on options.

The computer has to be connected (directly or through a network) to make changes, there are no buttons/display on the unit itself. Your computer is the HMI. However, you could envision a state machine that used pushbuttons to control it (via the discrete inputs), so after its programmed, you didn't need the computer.. The BCS-460 will do whatever you program it to do.

Personally, I have my controller hardwired to my home network. My laptop has wireless, so it communicates via the home network wireless router to the BCS-460. My laptop is an integral part of my brewday, that way I get to surf HBT during rests/boils.. 7-segment displays are a thing of the past

Sounds good. My house is all wireless so if the BCS were hooked up to my system in the garage, my laptop would need to be in the garage also or I would need to add a wireless access point in order to control things from the house or monitor fermentation in the basement.

Either way I like the possibilities.

Linc

eccsynd said:

The reason that I chose these probes is that you don't need a thermowell. They can be immersed in hot/boiling wort directly with an easy leakfree connection.

That being said, there is nothing stopping you from using a thermowell. The probes are 1/4" in diameter, not coincidentally the same as the standard thermowell inside diameter. With the thermowell installed on your system, you could remove the probe for cleaning without fear of a leaking void.

The probe housing is very rugged 304 Stainless Steel. As previously mentioned, it comes with a Brass bulkhead and compression sleeve. If you don't like Brass, please just think of the bulkhead as a nice free paperweight. Each system/brewer is different, so it would be impossible to offer every imaginable probe connection option.

Cheers!
Adam

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Adam; i'm not trying to be a chit disturber on a great product you have as i'll purchase one in the future but not at the moment as money is tight. A 460 with your temp probes so no worries about the vast amount of different probes available that you can not keep in stock, what a PITA that would be.

Question; can a RTD be used and is there a way to correct for the difference in resistance they have vs your probes?

Back to your probes with my simple idea fix that works for me.

Follow me here Adam; back in 11-10-2008 under the thread "BCS-460 Beta Test" by slnies, post reply number 4 shows the temp probe with the cable attached.

The cable is attached by a brass compression nut with knurling at half of the nut towards the cable end, it must have a rubber compressable ring or washer. This threads to the brass thread with a large nut to tighten the probe with a 1/4" NPT on to the stainless probe. A simple fix for me would be to get extra compression nuts with this knurling in the same amount as the number of probes i'll use on my system. With the bare compression nut at the knurled cable out end machine a stepped brass slug 3/16" total thickness with a step the same diameter as the cable out hole with a 1/16" step into the compression nut. Machine to the same diameter as the knurled end. Solder these thin slugs to the compression nuts making for a waterproof cap like a schrader valve stem cap. This would allow unscrewing the probe cable with knurled compression nut then adding the cap to the probe on the keggles allowing removal of the keggles for cleaning without removing the probes, any probe wires in the way plus protection for the brass probe threads that are easy to damage. This way the brew system can be taken apart completely for storage or transporting to other brewing locations.

The question I have is will your temp probe compression nuts be available so I can make these waterproof caps?
Just adding my ideas here Adam as I can taste your product but family comes first thru the holidays.
Thanks in advance as you have always had quick straight replies.
I have a spot waiting for a 460 under my rotating aluminum x-mas tree.

Here's a picture of a 4" probe with bulkhead removed. The wires themselves are attached directly into the probe. There's a small piece of shrink tubing to make it splash proof (not waterproof). I don't manufacture the probes, just distribute, so unfortunately I don't have access to extra compression fittings. But you get all that you see in the pic.



The BCS-460 isn't compatible with RTD sensors. Although it does measure resistance, it is tuned to achieve the maximum resolution on a 10k probe. The thermistor probes have been proven to be very affordable, accurate, and also extremely responsive.

Thanks for the photo that clears up my idea about NOT removing the cable to the probe besides the RTD idea.
In the probe lead is that a two conductor with a grounding shield wrapped around the outside of the conductors and if so is it grounded at the 460 unit?
I'm thinking for my use to cut the probe cable close to the probe then using Radio Control model gold plated connectors in the right conductor count allowing for simple removal of the keggles for transporting, storage or cleaning of the brewing system. Silicone seal the cable entering the probe as well the cable cover, grounding shield and wires inside at the cut end behind the connector making for a waterproof probe as well.

BrewBeemer said:

Thanks for the photo that clears up my idea about NOT removing the cable to the probe besides the RTD idea.
In the probe lead is that a two conductor with a grounding shield wrapped around the outside of the conductors and if so is it grounded at the 460 unit?
I'm thinking for my use to cut the probe cable close to the probe then using Radio Control model gold plated connectors in the right conductor count allowing for simple removal of the keggles for transporting, storage or cleaning of the brewing system. Silicone seal the cable entering the probe as well the cable cover, grounding shield and wires inside at the cut end behind the connector making for a waterproof probe as well.

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No, the wire is fairly standard two wire with no shielding. It is not required anyway, as the Mash tun is grounded. However to answer your next question, a much simpler and cheaper way to get portable with the probe would be to get yourself a set of bayonet type connecters, they have been used in the industry for years. I know they are old tech, but they must work, because even Fluke still uses them for their temp sensor hook ups on their high end testing equipment . Anyway just a suggestion. S.

slnies said:

No, the wire is fairly standard two wire with no shielding. It is not required anyway, as the Mash tun is grounded. However to answer your next question, a much simpler and cheaper way to get portable with the probe would be to get yourself a set of bayonet type connecters, they have been used in the industry for years. I know they are old tech, but they must work, because even Fluke still uses them for their temp sensor hook ups on their high end testing equipment . Anyway just a suggestion. S.

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You must be talking about banana plug connections where the male end has four slits for a spring loaded tight fit in the socket. I have those for my Fluke 87 but would not want the male end with that hollow connector end getting wet from washing the kettles. For the small size I still believe those RC connectors with gold contacts would make a cleaner looking connection plus no corrosion and false resistance readings changing the siginal to the 460 Beta controller. There may be more connectors available on the market, I just haven't looked for them yet. All good ideas.

After having a couple of PM's always with quick replies and right to the point of my questions by Adam i've come to the decision in the near future to purchase a 460 Beta unit. His answers were none of those beating around the bush type many manufactures reply with about their products. For now i'll just have to be jealous of the new 460 Beta owners. My aggressive or abrassive questions towards the product were always answered in a gentlemanly like manner by Adam, hats off to you sir.
I'll start increasing my bier brewing money pot collection as a 460 purchase will be in my future. Thanks Adam and the 460 tesrers for all your answers and putting up with me and my BS questions at times.
NUFF SAID............Carl...............

I got mine, just started programming it. Slowly figuring things out. Next I need to rig some weldless fittings to install the probes. My programming thus far is simple, since I just have two pumps and do HERMS. Heat strike is manual, dough in, drop IC into HLT, turn pump on and off to maintain mash temp. Next I need to get Asco solenoid valves, pilot valves and pilot burners to turn my burners on and off! Then I can get 3 or 4 way solenoid valves and route liquid where I want it with float valves, etc. I can see how this may never end..

Welcome to the club p4ck37p1mp! The BCS-460 will make upgrading your system a ongoing and enjoyable process. Also easy. S.

I'm on the waiting list no worries in delivery time as the back's the main problem preventing the building of the new brew system for a while. Anyone have an idea for a liquid level control for the MLT without using any mechanical unit or float system? Any way to use a two conductor probe type of unit to maintain the MLT liquid level that can be connected to the 460 unit to control a pump? My thinking the probe unit must need some electronic unit with it for the proper signal that the 460 unit can use within the 5-20 ma signal load. A two conductor probe on a tube with a wing nut and stud adjustable on a stainless rod. Set it for different brew volumes and grain amount levels plus how much liquid maintained above the mash. Just thinking of another addition for a automated system. Any ideas out there?

I've seen some out there, but I forget where. One setup had to nodes, one on, one off. It was pretty slick. There's also the switches at McMaster-Carr. Search for Liquid Level Switches.

I was planning on using float switches for my fly sparge. Not sure how they'd need to be wired to the inputs on the bcs yet.

Float switches are probably the most economical. And easy to interface to the BCS-460 - connect one wire to +5V, and the other to a Din. So if Din=On, the switch is closed, Off = open.

Another option that I just ran across on the web:
Check these out:

http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm/ci_id/140802/la_id/1/document/1/re_id/0

These sensors look very cool, and easy to interface to the BCS. But they're a little pricey. They work by using an internal LED, and when the no liquid is present all of the light is reflected back. When liquid covers the dome, some light escapes, and the sensor sends a 5V on/off back to the controller. I wonder what it does in the presence of foam (or splashes). Anyone use anything like this before?

eccsynd said:

Float switches are probably the most economical. And easy to interface to the BCS-460 - connect one wire to +5V, and the other to a Din. So if Din=On, the switch is closed, Off = open.

Another option that I just ran across on the web:
Check these out:

http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm/ci_id/140802/la_id/1/document/1/re_id/0

These sensors look very cool, and easy to interface to the BCS. But they're a little pricey. They work by using an internal LED, and when the no liquid is present all of the light is reflected back. When liquid covers the dome, some light escapes, and the sensor sends a 5V on/off back to the controller. I wonder what it does in the presence of foam (or splashes). Anyone use anything like this before?

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Any idea how much they cost?

I've seen some styles as cheap as $32, but the high temp plastic ones are $47.
Digi-Key - 480-2028-ND (Honeywell Sensing and Control - LLE103101)

If you want to go stainless (like the pic) its $145.
HONEYWELL LLE305100 | Buy LLE305100 | Onlinecomponents.com

How high temp is that plastic one? I didn't see anything on that page as to max temp. I like the idea of that better than a float switch, and that price is not much more than a good float switch. Also, how are you guys dealing with your SSRs and power outlets in terms of water proofing? I looked at some outdoor NEMA enclosures to house the SSRs and the BCS itself. Not sure how I want to do my power outlets, other than using GFI. I may cut the plugs off the pumps and just hard wire them to the SSRs. BCS may live where my network gear goes and I'll run some cat5 to carry probe and other connections. Anyone have any thoughts or advice?

p4ck37p1mp said:

Also, how are you guys dealing with your SSRs and power outlets in terms of water proofing? I looked at some outdoor NEMA enclosures to house the SSRs and the BCS itself.

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not a bcs user, yet, but I just used these on my electric rig:



From my old setup:

BCS may live where my network gear goes and I'll run some cat5 to carry probe and other connections.

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I like that idea... not sure how distance affects probes, though.

Another question. Do I need to insulate probe wires, sensor wires, etc somehow with shrinkwrap tubing to protect them from heat and water?

I just ordered mine last night. Still sorting out my part list of what I need.

p4ck37p1mp said:

How high temp is that plastic one? I didn't see anything on that page as to max temp. I like the idea of that better than a float switch, and that price is not much more than a good float switch. Also, how are you guys dealing with your SSRs and power outlets in terms of water proofing? I looked at some outdoor NEMA enclosures to house the SSRs and the BCS itself. Not sure how I want to do my power outlets, other than using GFI. I may cut the plugs off the pumps and just hard wire them to the SSRs. BCS may live where my network gear goes and I'll run some cat5 to carry probe and other connections. Anyone have any thoughts or advice?

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I also like the idea of the plastic sensor. But on the page is says it contains lead? I don't know if that's something to be concerned about or not (will it leach into the mash?).

I do the same as bakins on my current control box. The vent on the right is directly over a heat sink for an SSR.


When I upgrade to a full electric system + BCS I'm planning on using a couple larger boxes. One for the BCS. I was thinking of maybe using a cover like the one above but instead of using it for electrical receptacles I would find some sort of plugs so that I could unplug/plug-in all the sensors (temp, din, cat5, etc) while keeping the plugs water resistant. Not sure what will work at this point. The other box will hold the SSRs, Heat Sinks etc. On my brew stand the pump, HERMS heater, etc. are screwed on or attached somehow so I will hard-wire those into the box (vs. using electrical receptacles) but other stuff that I needs to be unplugged often (electrical motor for stirrer on HLT) I will use a receptacle.

As a side note, I found a guy on eBay selling NEMA/metal boxes as well as switches, breakers, etc. Worth a look. Link (no affiliation, etc) He pretty much has every size NEMA you could think of.

I decided to get an outdoor NEMA box for the SSRs, and to hard wire the pumps to the SSRs. I got a 20A GFI breaker for my panel just for this box that will be hardwired to the breaker. I'll mount the box to the wall in the garage, the cords on the pumps are long enough. Once I have a stand I'll re-do things some as I'll have more SSRs and other things.

Drat, just noticed they sent me 240vac SSRs instead of 120vac. I assume this won't work? Maybe it will, if its rated for 240v it should do 120v I guess.

p4ck37p1mp said:

How high temp is that plastic one?

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The datasheet says the high temp ones are good up to 257degF. It doesn't say what type of material, only Plastic. But under typical applications, it lists Food and Beverage, and Medical.

Digikey says it's not RoHS compliant, but that doesn't mean that there is lead in it, or if there is some, its probably not in the part touching the wort. I'm just speculating, only the manufacturer would know for sure, but it seems pretty safe to me.

p4ck37p1mp, I wouldn't cut the end off your pump. Just install a cheap outlet from your ssr inside your enclosure. You'll find that there may be something different in the future that you might want to control, so that gives you good flexibility. Remember, you can program the BCS-460 for your brewrig, and save the configuration to a file. After brewday, load up a different configuration file and use it for something else.