Is Beekeeping a Constitutional right?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The trend nationally, by the way, is for municipalities to relax rather than tighten these kinds of restrictions on urban beekeeping, as the benefits become more widely appreciated and the myths of the dangers are debunked. Salt Lake City has lifted ALL restrictions, as has Polk County in Florida, with no apparent ill-effects and no cries for re-regulation.
 
I mentioned before that NYC has done the same. But I still see some regulation as neccesary, such as how many hives are allowed. I don't believe it reasonable that my neighbor should be able to fill his yard with as many hives as space allows.
 
Probably not necessary, as the urban habitat wouldn't offer sufficient nectar and pollen to support that sort of saturation, so I suppose I wouldn't object to that.
 
Sir, your juvenile attempt at humor will be met with sharp criticism in this thread, serious discussion only please!!!!:D

It's certainly not an attempt at juvenile humor. The title of this thread is a direct question of whether or not beekeeping is a constitutional right. While my comment was sarcastic, the question is serious in asking on whether or not someone can solidly provide evidence for or against this question. I personally cannot recall, so I was hoping someone else would provide this answer. ;)
 
I mentioned before that NYC has done the same. But I still see some regulation as neccesary, such as how many hives are allowed. I don't believe it reasonable that my neighbor should be able to fill his yard with as many hives as space allows.

While I normally share your view point on most things, this is not a valid argument either.

Anyone who has taken the time to study the honey bee and invest ~$300 - $500 per hive is NOT going to fill their urban back yard with as many hives as the square footage will hold. Bees will regulate their own population density and if that density gets too high, they swarm and find a new place to do bee things. This would not be a financially smart move on the keepers part.

I see no reason what so ever to regulate urban bee keeping. And I say that as an aspiring bee keeper who has studied bees for a few years now but haven't been in the same location long enough to make keeping a hive a wise decision on my part. (Full Disclosure) :)
 
This reminds me of the city councilman who wanted to pass a law obliguing businesses in Flushing to have their business's name on their signage in English as well as Chinese.

Overlooking the obvious issues the measure was struck down when it was "discovered" (ie, everyone with a brain figured out) that most Chinese-owned businesses (overwhelmingly) already have English signage (seeing as how English speakers have money they are hoping to spend there as well).

This ordinance would be a dog and pony measure...


While I normally share your view point on most things, this is not a valid argument either.

Anyone who has taken the time to study the honey bee and invest ~$300 - $500 per hive is NOT going to fill their urban back yard with as many hives as the square footage will hold. Bees will regulate their own population density and if that density gets too high, they swarm and find a new place to do bee things. This would not be a financially smart move on the keepers part.

I see no reason what so ever to regulate urban bee keeping. And I say that as an aspiring bee keeper who has studied bees for a few years now but haven't been in the same location long enough to make keeping a hive a wise decision on my part. (Full Disclosure) :)
 
I live next to you, I am allergic to hops, your beer brewing brings hop particles into my yard. You must quit brewing beer, because your hobby negativly effects me.

:rolleyes:

Apparently you missed the part where I stated that common sense ought to prevail. Or perhaps you missed the part where I said that many people brew in their houses. Or perhaps you don't understand that a few hop particles is not going to cause an allergic reaction, certainly not the amount that may or may not be in the air a house or more away during a brew day.

I fully expected some sort of challenge to my premise, however I did not expect one so inane
 
Pilgarlic said:
Airborne, I disagree with you for a simple reason. First, the "nearly instant death" scenario of true anaphylactic shock is extremely rare. In fact, " is a gross exaggeration of that very rare reaction. But the reason I disagree with you is that I don't think that regulation of the bees is either necessary or sufficient to protect that allergic person. First, is the regulation necessary? No, because, first, my bees don't present a risk. They only sting defensively. Don't disturb them and you won't be stung. Also not necessary because those few who have this reaction will certainly not attract these insects to their yards with nectar plants, and bees don't wander around aimlessly. Also not necessary because there are other ways for that person to protect himself, for example, by carrying an epi-pen. And, regulation would certainly not be sufficient to protect that person. Anaphylactic shock can be brought about by wasps, also, which are much more likely to sting you. Or even by ant bites. So you'd better carry that pen anyway, hadn't you?

If a regulation is neither necessary nor sufficient, leave it off the books.

The concentration is not an issue if they do no harm. And they do no harm. Particularly since the severely allergic person can take measures to a) keep bees from visiting and b) protect their health (carry an epi-pen. wouldn't you?). Severely allergic people should do these things to protect themselves whether I have bees or not.

So you having bees means a severely allergic person shouldn't have flowers? I'm confused, its like saying I keep bears, but they won't bother you, unless you have a fish pond, and you don't like bears you shouldn't have a fish pond anyway.by the way you don't own a chainmail suit just in case my bears do decide to search for a fish pond in you yard anyway?
 
No, it's like saying if you are extremely allergic to bees, maybe you shouldn't fill your yard with things that will attract bees regardless of whether or not a neighbor happens to have bees.
 
So... Should I be forced to cut down all of my walnut trees because my neighbor is allergic to walnuts?

Those darn squirrels are always carrying the walnuts into his yard too!

Only if the walnut tree is forcing your neighbor to eat it's nuts.:ban:
 
bosdave said:
:rolleyes:

Apparently you missed the part where I stated that common sense ought to prevail. Or perhaps you missed the part where I said that many people brew in their houses. Or perhaps you don't understand that a few hop particles is not going to cause an allergic reaction, certainly not the amount that may or may not be in the air a house or more away during a brew day.

I fully expected some sort of challenge to my premise, however I did not expect one so inane

How do you know how allergic I am. And if I say it bothers me then it bothers me so you shouldn't do it
 
First, honeybees are not aggressive. Unless you molest them (inadvertently or deliberately) they will not sting you. Doesn't matter whether you're ten feet away from the colony or a mile. They're just not that into you.

USUALLY not aggressive. I've been stung enough times just sitting in my truck eating, laying on my raft in the pool and sitting on my porch. Nothing like a red hot bee's ******* stinger to wake you up from a nice nap.

I'm still for honey bee keeping. Nothing better than some Orange Blossom honey.
 
Swamp, I sincerely believe that if you were stung by an unprovoked insect it wasn't a honeybee. They simply don't behave that way. They sting defensively.
 
For example: Home brewing causes minimal noise, no physical effect on any neighbor and often is done out of sight to any neighbor. Therefore it is common sense to say that home brewing, as a hobby, does not negatively impact one's neighbors, on their property or off of it.

So you are arguing based on the assumption that your hobby couldn't possible offend or negatively effect your neighbor so it makes it ok. And since you or someone has been stung by a bee at somepoint (most likely not even a honey bee) that it automatically needs to be done miles and miles away from civilization?

First, there is a meadery in Chicago that keeps their hives on the roofs of downtown buildings to take advantage of the parks wildflowers...they have to go.

some factoids for you:

The pollen and other particualtes easily sent airborne from dried hops are well known to be able to cause skin rashes to people with mild pollen allergies to anti-contactive effects in pregnant women....

Brewing beer has a distinctive aroma which while welcome and pleasant to most, is nauseating even in the smallest hint of it in the air to a few...

I could throw a couple more in there about sound and safety but the point isnt to put you or your hobby (my own as well) down. It's simply to say that for every hobby you could imagine done anywhere that someone besides the hobbyist themselves could know it is being done there will be someone that is offended by it.

Using common sense or not, invasive or not, everything could negatively effect someone, if we eliminate all hobbys that can...we would all be sitting around watching tv all the time....hmm sedentary lifestyle causes flabby tv hobbyists....visually offensive to someone? damn even screwed there
 
so, are you suggesting that beekeepers never get stung by honeybees?

I'm a beekeeper. I get stung by honeybees sometimes, when I'm in their box, pulling frames of honey, or sometimes if I'm just standing too close to the entrance. But I inspect my hives, mostly, without gloves, and I they really don't often sting me. You can go on youtube and see a beekeeper with neither gloves nor veil tearing a feral colony out of a shed comb by comb and tossing the bee covered comb into a bucket and getting very, very few stings.
 
Here's a factoid to illustrate. Bees will "swarm" if their colony population grows enough. Half the population leaves to go find another home. While waiting to move into a new home, they'll ball up on a tight cluster on a limb or some other structure. While they're hanging there, they have no home, so they have no defensive instinct. You can slide your hand into the ball of bees and stir it gently around without being stung, because the bees have no home to defend! Similarly, if you capture a swarm in that state and it happens to be africanized bees, you'd never know it because they show no aggressive/defensive behavior. But take them home and put them in a box and those Africanized bees will let you know their nature the next day or so, once they've adopted a new home to defend.
 
some factoids for you:

The pollen and other particualtes easily sent airborne from dried hops are well known to be able to cause skin rashes to people with mild pollen allergies to anti-contactive effects in pregnant women....

Brewing beer has a distinctive aroma which while welcome and pleasant to most, is nauseating even in the smallest hint of it in the air to a few...

those aren't exactly facts. let alone "factoids".

i don't believe beekeeping should be regulated. however, as a fellow allergic (not to bee stings, luckily), and father, I can sympathize. 4/5/6 year old playing in the yard is neither going to know how to use an epipen or be very knowledgeable or cautious around bee-loving stuff.
 
Allergies are unfortunate. A parent of an allergic child will obviously exercise all necessary caution. That'll probably be completely adequate. It's a bit much, though, in my book, to expect government to build a bubble around what is in fact a very small risk. Anaphylactic shock from insect stings take about fifty lives a year in the U.S. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the stats segregated by type of insect, and anaphylactic shock can be triggered by wasps too, and even some ants. I know that the small number means nothing to the families who are in fact victims but we can't build a bubble around all risk, regardless of how small it is.
 
To summarize it: a lady in a town about an hour north of me starting keeping bees in her back yard last March, and the town passed an ordinance last May saying all bee hives had to be at least 75 feet from a neighbor's property line.

The cynic in me is thinking that the 75 foot setback was crafted to eliminate all urban / surburban beekeeping in the town.

I don't know about the town in question, but in the neighborhoods around here, in the overwhelming majority of the yards it would be impossible to achieve a 75 foot setback.
 
Here's a factoid to illustrate. Bees will "swarm" if their colony population grows enough. Half the population leaves to go find another home. While waiting to move into a new home, they'll ball up on a tight cluster on a limb or some other structure. While they're hanging there, they have no home, so they have no defensive instinct. You can slide your hand into the ball of bees and stir it gently around without being stung, because the bees have no home to defend!

...and thank God for that! Picture me as a youth, mowing beneath the trees in the small orchard in our side yard. Picture me desperately throwing the mower into reverse as I am confronted with a soccer ball sized knot of bees hanging in the apple tree about six inches from my face. I went in and immediately informed my father that his bees were swarming.
 
Airborne, I disagree with you for a simple reason. First, the "nearly instant death" scenario of true anaphylactic shock is extremely rare. In fact, " is a gross exaggeration of that very rare reaction.

Speaking based on my line of work (note the medic part of my username) It really is not all that rare of a reaction, actually becoming all to common...Instant death? no but an extremely rapidly, painful, terrifying reaction that can cause death ridiculously fast? YES

I agree with your point though that anyone with potential severe allergies to anything should always properly medicate and carry their epi pen with them at all times, whether their neighbor has bees, grows peanuts, or whatever their trigger is.

Overall I don't agree with the regulation, the neighbor having the bees doesn't elevate the potential of them getting stung, their choice of landscaping has a much more significant effect on it. If they grow tons of wildflowers or have clover instead of grass, bird baths etc. the bees will come no matter what....So let them grow their flowers, let the neighbor have the bees, they need to carry epi pens and maybe teach the neighbor how to use it....easy compromise
 
Since I am a beekeeper I feel obligated to weigh in on this subject.

I have read part of these posts and I have noticed some that are way off base because of peoples fear of being stung. Honeybee's for the most part are not aggressive. They only sting to protect themself or their hive.

A lot of people who get stung, blame the sting on honeybee's when actually it is another stinging insect such as yellow jackets. I get calls every fall from people telling me that honeybees are swarming on the side of their house. When I tell them that the insect on the side of their house is a yellow jacket they swear that it is a honey bee because their neighbor saw it and he know honeybees because his buddy's mothers brother keeps honeybees and he knows what they look like.

Now lets defend keeping honeybees. This world is fed by less than 100 grain crops. Of those, 70 are pollinated by honeybee's. If it wasn't for honeybee's, there would not be near the quantity or quality of food.

Just to show you how important they are to you. We all know that a lot of fruit and vegetables are pollinated by honeybees but did you know that your meats would not be as good or plentiful if it wasn't for honeybees? Example Pork, Beef, and Poultry are fed protein to make the flavor that people find pleasing. That protein comes from soybeans which is pollinated by honeybee's.

West Virginia has passed a beekeeper immunity law which is being looked at by many states as a model law for beekeeping. This recognizes that honeybee's are important to our food source and how using the nature of honeybees to keep them so they can exist with man.

The statements above about bee’s are not aggressive does not include Africanized honeybees. Those type of honeybees are in a limited area along the southern border of the US. If you really want to know where they are found the USDA has a map on their website with the area’s that has them.
 
can you cite your source?

Here are a couple to get you started, a simple google search can provide many more if youre actually interested

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6318359_hop-allergies.html

http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_hops.htm

http://www.livestrong.com/article/440133-hops-side-effects/

http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/f/food_allergy_hops/intro.htm



• Hops add the bitter flavour. Hops (Humulus lupulus) belongs to the Cannabacea family- the same family as cannabis sativa (hemp).

Pradalier A, at al, Centre d'Allergie de l'Ouest Parisien, in France report on a patient who presented 4 times with systemic urticaria, arthralgias and fever treated successfully with corticosteroids. Wild hop (Humulus lupulus) was finally proved to be the causal factor. H.L. belongs to the cannabinaceas family. Hop dermatitis in hop workers population is the most widely described clinical manifestation. Rhinitis, conjunctivitis, asthma are rare as well as contact urticaria. IgE-anti Hop induced allergies are described in the literature. However, in some cases of reactions to hop the mechanisms are uncertain: toxicity--possible role of lupuline--or immunoallergic processes with immunocomplexes (IC) (with increased IC in serum) and systemic urticaria such as in our observation
 
This certainly does not seem to be a Constitutional issue. Municipalities and local governments may pass ordinances as they please, so long as the ordinances are lawful. But certainly it is not without precedent that the local government will proactively restrict the presence of animals in certain spaces which could deprive adjacent residents of the use and enjoyment of their own property, i.e. to restrict animals that could create a nuisance to neighbors. In my area here in Seattle it is ordained that not more than something like 2 hens can inhabit a property unless the property spans more than 20k square feet - note that I'm not certain of exact numbers here, but you get the idea. I like farm fresh eggs, so I'm kind of out of luck until I move to the country some day...
 
Swamp, I sincerely believe that if you were stung by an unprovoked insect it wasn't a honeybee. They simply don't behave that way. They sting defensively.

I sincerely believe I can tell the difference between a bee stinger left in skin vs a wasp stinger that isn't. But then again I'm guessing you know more about what stung me than I do. I'm all for bees but come on with the pretentious attitude already.
 
I'm not pretending anything, swamp. But the idea that a honeybee would go out of its way to sting someone lying on a floating raft is just not credible. We have problems because people mistakenly believe that bees do these things. You disagreed with my characterization of the bees, I disagreed with yours. Sorry it offended you.
 
I believe that it is a constitutional right. However, I don't think that it is a right that cannot be restricted. See the right to own guns.

Generally speaking one's rights end the moment that they infringe upon another person's rights. While it is acceptable to have bees in your yard, if you cannot keep your bees in your yard and they cause physical or emotional stress on your neighbor, well that is not acceptable.

If I have 8 dogs, I will have issues if I cannot keep them in my yard. Perhaps more specifically, if I keep chickens for eggs, I also must keep them from bothering my neighbors.

Emotional distress is a made up term. It's like being offended. It's one's own fault for being offended. I mean, what happens when you're offended? Nothing. Some brick doesn't fall from the sky and hit you square on the head. Emotional distress is the same way to me. It's something people thought up to make money via our court system. I can sue you for emotional distress. It's an extension of political correctness. #$%&*@#$%*.
 
Wow, I had no idea this was going to become such a hot topic for discussion. So, here's an update, and my thoughts:

First off, the "Constitutional right" I put in the title comes from the interview the news did with the lady; she said it was her Constitutional right. I agree with whoever said in this thread that he's tired of people using that phrase (and "for the children") to make their argument seem more important. I'm a big fan of the specific meaning of words (despite SWMBO's frustrations with that) and agree that most of the time those two phrases actually mean, "This is important to me so shut up and listen!"

Now, this woman was found guilty yesterday of violating the ordinance, and is being fined $50 and has two weeks to remove her bee hive (singular, by the way) or face 20 days in jail.

My understanding based on the limited information the news provides is that she got her bee hive last March and set it up pretty much right beside the fence marking her property line. Neighbors complained, and she did not move the hive, so in May the city passed their ordinance. The ordinance says hives must be 75 feet from a neighbor's property, which really just limits people to keeping bees if they have larger property, which this woman cannot afford. So, she did nothing, which is where the problem seems to arise. She did not take this to court to fight the ordinance, she did not organize a grassroots beekeeping movement, etc., she just waited until the cops showed up with a summons.

Okay, so now my thoughts: No, it is not a Constitutional right to keep bees, but I believe that it is the 9th amendment (please correct me if I'm wrong) saying that American citizens have rights beyond what is stated.

With that said, there ought to be some courtesy amongst neighbors that should kick in before governmental regulations come into play. If I got a hive of bees and my neighbors complained, I would try to work out some kind of compromise. I'm reminded of the guy in town when I was a kid who got a couple pet wolves. They were kept in his (large) fenced in back yard. When the neighbors complained about their fear of wolves, he built a much larger fence, and that settled things. Obviously you can't fence in bees, but my point is compromise before regulation.

To me, this woman is in the wrong because she did nothing when the ordinance was passed. I'm sure she went to the town council meetings when they were discussing it, but after it passed, she just sat there watching her bees. It's kind of too late to do anything about it when the cops show up.

So, anyway, my thinking is that cities should not pass laws to protect people from bees, but people should be considerate of others' fears and feelings. Beekeepers would probably benefit from educating the public about the nature of bees and the benefits that they provide the world.

Also, every time someone mentions how bee populations are declining for no discernible reason, I can't help but think about Dr. Who. Anybody else have that problem?
 
It really comes to this, in my opinion. Do we want bees in the urban environment or don't we? If not, we should forget about setbacks from lot lines, et cetera and just outlaw beekeeping. Because, as noted, bees travel up to five miles to forage. What's a 75' setback to 10,000 bees that travel 5 miles? But that's not enough. As I said, bees exist. So if a feral bee colony moves into the hollow of my grapefruit tree, I should be obligated to eradicate it. If it's a nuisance or a menace, it is so whether I have put it there or not, and I should be prohibited from allowing a substantial nuisance or menace on my property. So in addition to not keeping bees, if we're going to be consistent, we should be obligated to eradicate them when we find them, particularly since kept bees are, if anything SAFER than feral.

This is the strongest point against such stupid regulations. If you are not allowed to keep and maintain a beehive on your property then you also must be obliged to remove any feral hives that pop up for the same exact reasons.
 
Okay, so now my thoughts: No, it is not a Constitutional right to keep bees, but I believe that it is the 9th amendment (please correct me if I'm wrong) saying that American citizens have rights beyond what is stated.

With that said, there ought to be some courtesy amongst neighbors that should kick in before governmental regulations come into play. If I got a hive of bees and my neighbors complained, I would try to work out some kind of compromise. I'm reminded of the guy in town when I was a kid who got a couple pet wolves. They were kept in his (large) fenced in back yard. When the neighbors complained about their fear of wolves, he built a much larger fence, and that settled things. Obviously you can't fence in bees, but my point is compromise before regulation.

To me, this woman is in the wrong because she did nothing when the ordinance was passed. I'm sure she went to the town council meetings when they were discussing it, but after it passed, she just sat there watching her bees. It's kind of too late to do anything about it when the cops show up.

The basic principle is that the Constitution provides the powers that the federal government has. Things in the Bill of Rights are specifically called out, but the absence of an enumerated right does not imply the absence of that right.

This isn't a federal issue, though, as this is a local law, so the application of the Constitution is quite different. There is no need for an enumerated government power to regulate bee keeping, it's understood that aside from specific prohibitions, localities can decide for themselves how to handle the regulation.

I agree with you---the bee keeper here should have taken some sort of action before this point. We live in a society, and if you have neighbors, you have a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to get along with them. If they don't want a bee hive right along the edge of their property, it's a serious dick move to put one (or leave one) there. Put it far enough from their property that you're not going to cause a concentration of bees in their yard. That's common sense. If your yard isn't large enough to do that and your neighbors don't agree that they want your hive to be encroaching on their property, then I'm sorry, find a place that affords you the space to enjoy your hobby.

Is the 75 feet here appropriate? I don't know, but there's unquestionably a radius around the bee hive where there are a lot more bees than in a typical location. That radius needs to be on your property. Regardless of how docile honey bees may be, it's just common sense that you don't let your kids or your dog go play next to a hive. If you stick your hive on the other side of my fence, you're making part of my yard next to a hive. That's a problem, regardless of allergies, etc.
 
Again, it's important to understand how bees behave. If they are not in the hive, they are foraging for either water, pollen or nectar. When they leave the hive to forage, they don't aimlessly wander looking for something. The locations have been identified by previous foragers and those locations have been communicated by a "bee dance" to other foragers. When the foragers leave the hive, they rise into the air and make a "beeline" for the resources, forage to capacity on those resources, return to the hive and deposit them. Then they do it again. And bees don't go to the nearest sources, but to the best sources in their range. So, I have a beehive in my backyard. Does my backyard have a higher concentration of bees then one down the street? Depends. If I have rich nectar, pollen or water sources, maybe. If my neighbor does, and I don't, then other than the hive itself and a very short flight path, then my neighbor has more (of my) bees than I do. I'll grant that something like a 7.5 or 10 foot setback might be warranted. Sometimes "barriers" are required, too, so that bees leaving the hive in the direction of a neighboring yard are directed upward. I'll buy that, too.
Now, you might say that I'm negatively impacting my neighbor because my neighbor just happens to be a butterfly gardener and has many nectar and pollen bearing plants, and my keeping bees negatively impacts him. But those plants are only going to attract a large number of my (or any) bees if it's a rich nectar source, and given the foraging range of bees (up to 5 miles) bees are going to be attracted whether I keep bees or not. The existence of the rich nectar source in my neighbor's yard is a much better predictor of whether ANY bees will be there than is the presence of my hive next door.
 
Back
Top