Alternative electric solution.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

BargainFittings

Vendor / Owner
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
1,838
Reaction score
105
Location
Allen TX
Just shooting an idea out there.

The idea is to use TWO electric stove top elements to heat a kettle.

The twist is using two of them interlaced. Basically the coil could be spread enough so that two elements could be put together, one inside the other.

A custom holder would be made to keep the elements spread and supported.
Standard stove top controls could be wired in (220 volt) and manually adjusted. I suppose they could be wired and controlled with a love controller or such.

Pros: No issues with drilling the kettle or leaks.
Pot can be removed to be cleaned. No wires attached to it.
Elements won't burn out like immersion if dry fired.

Cons: Limited to ~5000 Watts total: 2200 watts per element or 2600 watt canning elements.
Possible damage from spreading the element.
Less efficient than an immersion element.
Possible scorching in the kettle?

Ok anyone see any problems?

I'm watching craigslist for a free stove to prototype it.
 
I would be interested in the efficiency.

Gas burners waste about 60% or more of thier BTUs, making them very inefficient.

Immersed electric elements apply 100% of their BTU output directly to the water or wort, not the air or kettle.

I would like to see this. I wonder though if the project of creating this mammoth stove burner would be more labor, time, and $$$ intensive than a simple immersed element.

With the 1" SS nut that you sell on your site, my element seals perfectly just using the supplied seal that came with the element.

I would like to see someone do this... I use a CIP process, so removing the kettle and the wires attached, is no big deal. It takes me about 3700W to maintain a boil that provides 1.3gal/hr boil off in an uninsualted keggle.

This has merit, I am just thinking that it is much easier to build an immersed element than to build this.

One can build a 5500W immersed element quite easily and cheaply.

$18 for element
$10 for cord and plug
$1 for CPVC coupler
$5 for JB Putty
$5 for JB Weld
$9 for SS nut from Bargain Fittings

$48 Total
 
Sounds like an interesting experiment. Because of the direct contact, electric transfers more of the thermal energy directly to the pot than a flame can. You just need to be able to get enough juice running and it should heat up rather quickly.

I was trying to figure out a way to use a large magnetic induction element a while back. The obstacles there are price, needing a grade of SS with a magnetic component, and fragile nature of the induction top surface for the weight of a full brewpot on standalone induction burners.
 
I do appreciate the low cost of installing the immersion elements. This is mostly a mind game at the moment. :)

The idea here is to scrounge all or most of the needed stuff from a stove.

Most of the parts could be reused from the stove: the controls and elements. Maybe enough wire to go from the controls to the elements.

I guess it will depend on me finding a stove to play with.
 
Sounds like an interesting experiment. Because of the direct contact, electric transfers more of the thermal energy directly to the pot than a flame can. You just need to be able to get enough juice running and it should heat up rather quickly.

I was trying to figure out a way to use a large magnetic induction element a while back. The obstacles there are price, needing a grade of SS with a magnetic component, and fragile nature of the induction top surface for the weight of a full brewpot on standalone induction burners.


This is true, but there is only about 1/3 to 1/5 the BTUs produced as a gas burner.

I wonder... if a heating element like that is rated at 2000W... and only ONE side of the element is touching the pot, does this mean only 1000W is directly applied?

I also wonder to what degree the need to heat the bottom of the kettle before it heats the fluid would affect the time to reach a boil.
 
Pol
The element is easy to do but what about controlling it? Is the base of the element zinc? I really see a market for a homebrewer tool being sold as a finished piece.
-Ben


One can build a 5500W immersed element quite easily and cheaply.

$18 for element
$10 for cord and plug
$1 for CPVC coupler
$5 for JB Putty
$5 for JB Weld
$9 for SS nut from Bargain Fittings

$48 Total
 
I think that controlling it via. PID and SSR is easy... I can see how it could be daunting to some. But once wired, it is very nice.

The benefits are that you have a thermocouple in the kettle, and if you chill in that kettle, you get a constant digital readout of the current kettle temp. I am utilizing this in my new closed system wort cooling.

You also are able to set the PID to auto to maintain about 180F during the sparge, which allows you to reach a boil in 7.5 gallons in 5 minutes flat after the sparge ends.

I do think there is a market for those that want to do electric brewing. I wonder how much a guy is willing to pay though. Many people also shy away from electricity due to the need to have 240VAC available, moreso than them passing it up because they dont want to build it. As long as the 240VAC barrier is still there, the market will be very limited.

I would like to see this done, I would like to see it work and see some real #s. This is basically the same idea as an electric skillet, but my point is that if you have 5000W of power heating the ambient air and the kettle, I wonder how this will compare to 5000W directly applied to the wort.

One 5500W element is surrounded on all sides by the meduim that it is heating. A 5500W wire element will be less then 50% in contact with the kettle that in turn has to transfer the heat to the meduim you are heating.

The one aspect that allows me to reach a boil so fast with 18,700 BTUs is the fact that I am getting 100% of those BTUs applied to the meduim I am heating. Propane burners are about 35-40% efficient at doing this.

I would love to see an ugly prototype from which to pull some #s.

I mean you could actually do a proof of concept by using one element and half the volume of fluid as you intend to use in the full sized project.

Use one 2000W stove element and use it to heat 3.75 gallons to boiling instead of 7.5 gallons. Essentially all we are talking about is doubling the power and doubling the volume here. Proving the capability and acutally getting some good heating times (within mayeb 10%) would be easy. Building it is another story.
 
Someone put 3.75 gallons on your 2000W stove element and tell us how long it takes to get from 70-boiling and from 160-boiling please.
 
I wonder... if a heating element like that is rated at 2000W... and only ONE side of the element is touching the pot, does this mean only 1000W is directly applied?

Air is a lot less conductive to heat then SS. so the side in contact with the kettle will conduct its heat a lot faster. Heat is just energy and will then move to were every it is most out of equilibrium. so the element will constantly produce 2kw of energy, most of which will conduct to the kettle.
 
One 5500W element is surrounded on all sides by the meduim that it is heating. A 5500W wire element will be less then 50% in contact with the kettle that in turn has to transfer the heat to the meduim you are heating.

The one aspect that allows me to reach a boil so fast with 18,700 BTUs is the fact that I am getting 100% of those BTUs applied to the meduim I am heating. Propane burners are about 35-40% efficient at doing this.

With an electric element on the bottom you are not circulating the air, with a burner, you are constantly circulating the air around the bottom of the Kettle, when that air leaves the contact area it takes its energy with it, requiring you to heat new air.

Since on most E-stoves the element is surrounded by metal guards and reflectors, it has very little air circulation (usually just some convection currents) so less of its energy is spent heating the surrounding air.
 
I'd want to put a piece of stainless under the coil as a reflector and then apply a piece of 1" thick sheet of ceramic fiber insulation under that. No reason to heat all that air.
 
So, again... this is easy isnt it? Aside from building the thing, someone place 3.75 gallons on your stove at home and tell us how long it takes to heat.

I mean this is what we are talking about right? Now, heating 3.75 gallons with 2000W will be faster than heating 7.5 gallons with 4000W... but it would provide a "best case" scenario to grow from.

We talk too much... isnt someone near a darn stove?
 
It is sunny here now... passed over a nice line of severe weather getting here though at about 11am, tops to at least 40k.
 
With an immersed element you can get 3.75 gallons from 160F to boiling in 15 minutes with 2000W.

This can be a point of comparison for a stovetop test.

70-160 takes 26 minutes for comparison as well.
 
Did the test. 3.75 gallons of 70 degree water by weight. 8" electric burner

4:31 pm - 70 degree
4:57 pm - 160 - 26 minutes
5:00 pm - 170 - 29 minutes
5:13 pm - 211 (boil) 42 minutes

Fridgidare crowne series electric range. Not sure of the wattage of the element.

Edit. Found my stove online. 2100 watt element.
 
How big is your kettle? What about three 6" ones? There are 1500W ones available, putting you at 4500W. You would need to make sure you had a pot that was at least 15" in diameter to be able to cover all of them, though.
 
One 5500W element is surrounded on all sides by the meduim that it is heating.

I have never direct heated with an immersed element, and I know that you do have some experience with this POL, but I would have to think there is a point where a wort heavily composed of sugars is going to scorch. 5000W seems like a pretty heavily juiced element.
 
I have never direct heated with an immersed element, and I know that you do have some experience with this POL, but I would have to think there is a point where a wort heavily composed of sugars is going to scorch. 5000W seems like a pretty heavily juiced element.

Been tested by plenty of folks, Pol included... the high wattage elements are also longer, so that the watts per square inch isn't really that much greater... that is the important thing.
 
Did the test. 3.75 gallons of 70 degree water by weight. 8" electric burner

4:31 pm - 70 degree
4:57 pm - 160 - 26 minutes
5:00 pm - 170 - 29 minutes
5:13 pm - 211 (boil) 42 minutes

Fridgidare crowne series electric range. Not sure of the wattage of the element.

Edit. Found my stove online. 2100 watt element.

Now that is interesting. With nearly identicle power levels (2000 vs 2100W) the numbers were for all practical purposes identicle to The Pols with an immersed element. I would have agreed in theory that there would have been some losses due to the portion of the stove element that was radiating in ambient air. It seems most of this heat bust have reflected up to the bottom of the pot.
 
I can place my hand directly on my element when it is heating in the BK.

5500W is a lot, but it is an ultra low watt density element too. You can place your hand right on the element when it is in the BK heating water. It only has about 50-60 watts per square inch!

Excellent #s, now build this thing!
 
Now that is interesting. With nearly identicle power levels (2000 vs 2100W) the numbers were for all practical purposes identicle to The Pols with an immersed element. I would have agreed in theory that there would have been some losses due to the portion of the stove element that was radiating in ambient air. It seems most of this heat bust have reflected up to the bottom of the pot.

My drip pans are about shot so I covered it with some aluminum foil shiny side up before the test.

I could not touch the stove top about 5 inches out from the pot so it was definitely heating up the stove top.

I'm looking hard now for a working stove to pillage for a full run!
 
I'm curious was the pot you used aluminum or stainless steel. I use stainless pots, but it stands to reason aluminum is a better conductor of heat.
 
Aluminum is much better as a conductor...

This would only work with a nice flat bottom kettle as well... sankeys are out Id think.
 
I'm working on something kind of similar.

Using a "T" and 2 elbow fittings, I want to put two 2000 watt 120v water heater elements on a single heatstick. Each element will have it's own power cord coming out of the handle and plugging into separate 20amp circuits.

4000 watts will allow me to heat my mash and sparge water in about 30 minutes and achieve a good boil in about 20 minutes. One element will hold the boil, with occasional boosts from the other element.
 
I just saw a few of these elements at our local Habitat Reuse Store. When I saw them I wondered if I could use them for something. Can I immerse these?


How many do you need. I bet I can get them cheap. There are more there then I would need.
 
I just saw a few of these elements at our local Habitat Reuse Store. When I saw them I wondered if I could use them for something. Can I immerse these?


How many do you need. I bet I can get them cheap. There are more there then I would need.

Depends on what "these" are
 
Depends on what "these" are

Well the original post is asking about electic stove elements. Sooooooo I suppose one might think that "these" would be said elements. Not the round ones seen in a standard stove but the ones used in High end stoves that use griddles and other mix and match stove accesories. The stuff at this store comes out of high end million dollar home remodels.


He was asking for some cheap stove elements to show up and I am telling him I have seen them. I could send him some for pretty cheap to experiment with. Instead of wasting time theorizing with people on the forum.
 
If it helps, I just did a test run on our stove with my 5 gallon pot.
I filled it with about 4 Gal of roomish temp water and did not get to a boil in 1 1/2 hours. I left the lid on.
So, I pulled it off the stove, drained it, wrapped it in foil bubble wrap insulation and tried again.
Success! time to boil was 1 hour 15min.

The insulation was still warm to the touch, so I think another layer would help shorten the time to boil.

Dan
 
I've gone forward with this.

I got my hands on a Jenn Aire Stove top

I tried intertwining the big elements but it was a pain. I found after the fact that with three elements I can fit the kettle over them fine.

stove.jpg

kettleonstove.jpg

stovediagram.jpg


Yes the welding is rough looking :) Thin metal is a beast to weld with a cracker box and the wrong size rods.
 
I've got to order some soow 10/4 cable to make my extension cord. I figure the following wattage: 5900 watts

1500 watt small
2 x 2200 watt big

I rewound the elements. I'm going to watch for some cheap replacements for the large elements.

I figure I can lay down some aluminum foil to reflect the heat up. That way I can replace it if I spill.

Here is the control. I'll just take the controls off and mount them on a custom box on my rig when I get it ready.

stovecontrols.jpg
 
This is really cool. To make it a bit more robust, you could put an aluminum plate on top of the elements and bond them with some thermal paste. It would dissipate the heat a bit but you could build it into a box and it could be slick looking.

Very cool idea!!!
 
Looking good. You may have to change that old saying "Now we're cooking with gas" to "Now we're cooking with electric" :)
 
Well I bought and received my power cord. Now I need a 50 amp gfci breaker and a power connection box.

Any suggestions on wiring between the control junction box and the actual burner? I'm thinking 10 gauge wire should work ok if I put it in conduit over to the burner stand.

I guess I could use plugs to make the stand removable.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top