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Kaiser

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I'm looking to add CRS support to the Brewer's Friend water calculator. Based on some numbers online I found that CRS is a mix of 6.75% HCl and 9% H2SO4.

Does this sound correct?

CRS (carbonate reduction solution) is apparently used in the UK a lot and it makes sense to support it.

Thanks,
Kai
 
I did the back calculations about a year ago based on the manufacturer's website information. If I recall correctly, CRS ends up being a 50:50 mix of 0.5N acids. This is all from memory, so I'm not positive about that.

I've been visiting the UK homebrew sites for a few months now. I've come to the realization that CRS is quite detrimental to many brewers results. For every 100 ppm sulfate added to the water, 72 ppm chloride is added. While we can easily accept fairly high sulfate in our beers, it becomes quite minerally when paired with high chloride. A CRS user could easily create mineral water with that product.

AJ has been highlighting CRS use for years, but I can now say that we are fortunate its not available in the US. A brewer is far better off using sulfuric or hydrochloric, but not both.

CRS is already implimented in the Bru'n Water version provided to supporters. Including it in the BF calculator would be helpful to UK brewers. They have some questionable advice in the calculators they have over there, like advocating 300 ppm chloride. Mmm! Minerally.
 
They (Brupaks) say 0.87 mL will reduce the alkalinity of 1L of water by 160 ppm as CaCO3 (3.2 mEq/L). That implies that 1 mL supplies 3.2/0.87 = 3.68 mEq, that 1 L would supply 3.68 Eq so that the solution has an effective normality of 3.68. But I can't find anything that tells me what the mix might be or even that it is HCl and H2SO4. They just say it is an 'acid blend' so we know there are at least 2 components but, unless I am missing something, we have no idea what they might be. Given it's British brewing it is probably HCl and H2SO4. You both have cited numbers. Perhaps you got them from sources other than Brupaks own website?

Wish I could get my hands on some. It would be a simple enough matter to neutralize a sample and measure the chloride and sulfate (and maybe phosphate).

I do tend to mention CRS a lot because using mineral acid to fix mash pH seems to be a keystone in British brewing whereas using organic acid from natural sources is clearly the preference of the Germans. But I think it is very interesting to note that Kolbach's well known paper is really an appeal for the use of mineral acids in German brewing.
 
I've been visiting the UK homebrew sites for a few months now. I've come to the realization that CRS is quite detrimental to many brewers results. For every 100 ppm sulfate added to the water, 72 ppm chloride is added. While we can easily accept fairly high sulfate in our beers, it becomes quite minerally when paired with high chloride. A CRS user could easily create mineral water with that product.

Yes, it’s easy to create rather mineral rich water with this product but that’s also the case with lactic acid. I think it’s part of brewer education to tell brewers that it will not remove minerals and if low mineral and low alkalinity water is desired other methods should be used.

AJ has been highlighting CRS use for years, but I can now say that we are fortunate its not available in the US. A brewer is far better off using sulfuric or hydrochloric, but not both.
I see it as a brewing water treatment option that has its place.

They (Brupaks) say 0.87 mL will reduce the alkalinity of 1L of water by 160 ppm as CaCO3 (3.2 mEq/L). That implies that 1 mL supplies 3.2/0.87 = 3.68 mEq, that 1 L would supply 3.68 Eq so that the solution has an effective normality of 3.68. But I can't find anything that tells me what the mix might be or even that it is HCl and H2SO4. They just say it is an 'acid blend' so we know there are at least 2 components but, unless I am missing something, we have no idea what they might be. Given it's British brewing it is probably HCl and H2SO4. You both have cited numbers. Perhaps you got them from sources other than Brupaks own website?

I got the same numbers from Burpaks website. That also matches the results of the only calculator I was able to find that supports CRS: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html

based on that I concluded that we are dealing with 6.75% HCl and 9% H2SO4. I was wondering if there are other sources.

Wish I could get my hands on some. It would be a simple enough matter to neutralize a sample and measure the chloride and sulfate (and maybe phosphate).

That would be useful. One could also buy it on a trip to the UK and neutralize a sample before bringing it to the US.

I do tend to mention CRS a lot because using mineral acid to fix mash pH seems to be a keystone in British brewing whereas using organic acid from natural sources is clearly the preference of the Germans. But I think it is very interesting to note that Kolbach's well known paper is really an appeal for the use of mineral acids in German brewing.

As I mentioned above, CRS has its place in brewing. Especially when brewing UK beers where it seems to be the traditional method for lowering alkalinity. I may be part of the character you are looking for in these beers. An educated brewer should be able to decide if the resulting mineral level is suits his/her needs or if other water treatment methods should be used.

Once the composition is known it’s easy to implement in a calculator.

Kai
 
I got the same numbers from Burpaks website. That also matches the results of the only calculator I was able to find that supports CRS: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html

That calculator says that 0.76 mL will produce, in a liter, 62.7 mg SO4-- and 49.6 mg/Cl. That's 1.398 mEq of each so that the stuff is 1.398/0.76 = 1.839 normal with respect to each or 3.679 N total which agrees with the value calculated from Brupak's usage table. The 'recipe' could then be:

To 950 mL of DI water add 0.051 mL 96% sulfuric acid and 0.148 mL 23 Be' hydrochloric acid. Make up to 1 L.

based on that I concluded that we are dealing with 6.75% HCl and 9% H2SO4. I was wondering if there are other sources.

1.839 mEq of HCL weighs 67.07 mg which, in a liter of water corresponds to 6.71% and 1.839 mEq of H2SO4 weighs 90.198 mg which in a liter of water is 9.04% so yes, looks as if that is indeed what is in CRS assuming the guy that put the calculator together had the straight scoop from the manufacturer. I think it's probably much simpler to think of it as 1.398N HCl plus 1.398N H2SO4 (or probably just 1.4 N in each.).




That would be useful. One could also buy it on a trip to the UK and neutralize a sample before bringing it to the US.
Take a 50 mL centrifuge tube and a phenolpthalein packet (from an alkalinity test kit) over there. Carefully measure out 1 mL CRS into the tube. Add a few mL of water and the phenolpthalein, then add baking soda until the solution starts to show color. Cap and take back to the states. Make up to a liter and send off to Ward labs.



Once the composition is known it’s easy to implement in a calculator.

You know the composite strength and
1. The website you reference indicates its equiequivalent amounts of each
2. It is reasonable to assume it would be.

I think you are pretty safe in assuming it is 1:1. Have you tried e-mailing the guy who owns the site and asking how he came up with those numbers?
 
I found another manufaturer of a CRS like solution. The solution is called AMS and produced by Murphy's.

The have a datasheet here: http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/tech-sheets/tech_ams.pdf

Based on these numbers I come up with
HCl: ~6.3 % w/w (7% w/v)
H2SO4: ~8.6 % w/w (9.5% w/v)

looks like it is pretty close to Burpaks CRS.

Kai

AMS and CRS are the same product. Brupaks repackage AMS in "homebrew" quantities.

/Michael
 
Based on the AMS data sheet it is an equinormal (1.9 N each) mix of each of the two acids with total normality 3.83. This is within the ballpark of what I had estimated from the Brupaks website.
 
As you suggest CRS/AMS is in fairly widespread use in the UK, both at the homebrew and small scale commercial level.

I am situated in southern England on the edge of the chalk plain near Salisbury. My water is fairly typical of lots of supplies in the southern half of Great Britain:

Ca - 107.0 ppm
Mg - 2.0
Na - 8.7
Sulphate - 19
Cl - 18.0
Bicarb - 283
Hardness - 276
Alkalinity - 234
RA - 157

I note your comments about CRS leading to a rather minerally water and I decided to plug some numbers into Bru'n Water. I used this recipe:

Pale ale malt 5 EBC 97%
Crystal 100 EBC 3%
EBC 16
OG 1043

So a pretty boring brown beer like you might see down the pub.

I adjusted the sparge water to pH 5.7 and mash to pH 5.4 using CRS.

The resulting finished water profile was:
Ca - 107.0 ppm
Mg - 2.0
Na - 8.7
Sulphate - 109.6
Cl - 83.4
Bicarb - 30.5
Hardness - 276
Alkalinity - 25
Alkalinity - 234
RA - -52
Sulphate/Cl ratio - 1.3

None of those figures seem off the scale and the sulphate/chloride ration seems on the money for a Boring Brown Beer.

Maybe CRS is popular in the UK because it does work reasonably well for a lot of our beers and a lot of our waters.

/Michael
 
I've been using CRS for a couple years, but now these posts have me wondering if I should try something different.

My water supply here in Vienna is:
125ppm alkalinity as CaCO3
2ppm chloride
7ppm sulfate

Using your calculator, it seems as though the CRS doesn't raise the chloride or sulfate levels to excessive levels, but maybe I am missing something.

Is my water profile an exception because of its low mineral content, or should I really stop using CRS?
 
I've been using CRS for a couple years, but now these posts have me wondering if I should try something different.
Read and ponder but don't take some of these posts too seriously.

My water supply here in Vienna is:
125ppm alkalinity as CaCO3
2ppm chloride
7ppm sulfate

Your alkalinity (2.5 mEq/L) is going to require 2.2 mEq/L (this will vary a small amount depending on the pH of your water and the pH used to define alkalinity) and, as AMS/CRS is an equinormal mix of HCl and H2SO4 you will wind up with an extra 1.1 mEq/L each of Cl- (39 mg/L) and SO4-- (52.8 mg/L). With your low levels of chloride and sulfate CRS seems very attractive if you are comfortable with 41 mg/L chloride and 60 mg/L sulfate.

AJ has been highlighting CRS use for years, but I can now say that we are fortunate its not available in the US. A brewer is far better off using sulfuric or hydrochloric, but not both.
This is nonsense. A brewer should have in mind how much chloride he wants and how much sulfate he wants. If he has alkalinity to dispose of then use of the acids to obtain those ions is certainly attractive. The only problem with AMS/CRS is that the ratio is fixed. As the numbers above show these products impose a Cl:SO4 ratio of 0.74. But we are all too sophisticated here (I hope) to fall for the chloride sulfate ratio hype. OTOH we need to be aware of the fact that chloride also gets you sulfate with AMS/CRS and conversely and if you don't want both then you'd be better off using the acid whose cation you want. I don't like sulfate and so would never use either of these products preferring straight HCl. But clearly there is demand for the blend and clearly the ratio was chosen to scratch the itch of commercial brewers in the UK who wouldn't be buying the stuff if there were any truth in the quote.

And, for the record, I highlight it as an option for brewers to whom it is available and for whom the amounts of Cl- and SO4-- imposed by their alkalinity and the equinormal nature of the product, as, perhaps, adjusted by salt supplementaion, are acceptable.

While we can easily accept fairly high sulfate in our beers, it becomes quite minerally when paired with high chloride.

From the brewer's point of view it is convenient to think of the amount of mineral quality in water as being imposed by the anions (which must, of course, be balanced by the cations). As an example of this note that we say that a water of high mineral content is 'hard' and a low one 'soft' referring to the calcium and magnesium ion content. As you have few anions other than bicarbonate, the nature of your water is driven by the (approximately) 2.5 mEq/L sodium, calcium and magnesium in it. At the tap these are balanced by bicarbonate and you are replacing those ions with sulfate and chloride ions in a fixed ratio. If you bought HCl and H2SO4 separately you could control the ratio but would still have to replace most of the bicarbonate ions. Now if you do that all with chloride you would have a brewing water that I would like (I don't like sulfate) and if you did it all with sulfate you'd have a pretty thin, flat tasting beer and if you did it all with phosphate you would not get the body effects of chloride or the hops synergy with sulfate etc the point being that the flavor quality of mineral effect depends on the relative amounts of anions with the magnitude dependent on the total ion content half of which is cations. If the water us too minerally it is because there are too many minerals in it and the appropriate action is to remove hardness by traditional means or all minerals by RO.

Most of us understand that chloride and sulfate do not have some sort of log antagonistic effect (though adherents of the Cl:SO4 ratio theory clearly do believe this is the case.) Thus there is nothing wrong with having chloride and sulfate ions in a beer as long as the amount of each is what you want it to be. Again I cite myself and an example of someone for whom the correct amount of sulfate is usually 0.



Using your calculator, it seems as though the CRS doesn't raise the chloride or sulfate levels to excessive levels, but maybe I am missing something.

No, you aren't.


Is my water profile an exception because of its low mineral content,

Yes, you do have unusually low Cl- and SO4--. If your chloride were 100 mg/L and sulfate 200 then you might want to think about using an alkalinity combating scheme that added more of either or both.

...or should I really stop using CRS?

No, unless you want water with less overall mineral content, in which case RO or lime softening would be the way to go or you do not want any more sulfate or any more chloride than you already have in which case you could use either HCl or H2SO4 alone or lactic or phosphoric acid.
 
You'll have to explain that. The idea that a brewer should not use HCl and H2SO4 is nonsense and I believe that is the only statement I disagreed with. The fact that he can certainly use both if he wants to does not mean that he will always want to. Sulfate and chloride are independent. That's what I was trying to say. Perhaps I was not clear.
 
No, you picked up on my poorly-worded admonition to not use both acids when I should have said not to use both acids via the CRS product with its fixed proportions of HCl and H2SO4. I was incorrect. But then you go on to state that you wouldn't use sulfuric for taste reasons. Just a slight contradiction/affirmation on your part.
 
If we allow that an arbitrarily chosen brewer may want to add a mixture of chloride and sulfate in proportion that is uniformly distributed between 0% chloride and 100% chloride then the rules of probability say that the probability that the particular fixed mix of CRS is the one he wants is 0. He is better off using the two acids (if he can get them in food grade) than the fixed blend because he has the extra degree of freedom. If that's what you were trying to say then we agree! I will try to remember in the future when I mention CRS to point out that its users are stuck with the fixed ratio.
 
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