Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

Do I make the new world or the old world recipe?

I'm going to brew one of them this Friday but trying to decide which one. I've brewed the new world twice with excellent results. thinking about stepping up and doing the old world but having reservations because of the great results from the new world.

Thoughts?

Holy crap. My New word is trying to escape! Currently exiting via the blow off tube which hardly sticks through the lid. Thats a lot of freakin head space to fill with krausen! Seriously active fermentation.



Edit: I ended up top cropping some yeast for an upcoming brew. No point letting those dumb yeasts commit suicide

Thats pretty normal, the Westmalle yeast is incredibly vigorous and likes to get out of the airlock. You want to get the temperature up to at least 78/79f (26c) to get it to do its thing for this beer properly.

I've used the westmalle yeast a half dozen times or so but its never been this active. Its still spilling yeast jizz through the blow off 2 days later

Mine was a big hit at the Zapps beer fest in Baton Rouge this weekend.
Lots of positive comments, and compliments. and then that awefull sound when the keg runs dry..... Oh well, it was enjoyed by many. Now time to brew it again.

saq said:

Thats pretty normal, the Westmalle yeast is incredibly vigorous and likes to get out of the airlock. You want to get the temperature up to at least 78/79f (26c) to get it to do its thing for this beer properly.

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What do you guys recommend as far as a fermentation temperature schedule? I ask because I made the old world version, pitched at 64F, and let it free rise to 75F. I then applied external heat to get it to 82F within 12 hours.

I got dinged by 4 different judges for the beer being too solventy/harsh, and I can detect it as well. They all blame it on too hot of a fermentation, and I have to agree.

I know the stated practice of Westvelteren in BLAM is to get it up into the 80's, but I'm not so sure this can be directly correlated to a home setup due to differences in fermentor geometry, open vs. closed, etc.

Any experience/guidance/advice would be appreciated.

Layne, Im really interested in trying your technique on boiling the first runnings (may add some plain sugar with it as well). Did you brew the traditional or new world? How did the color turn out? Would you reduce the same amount of first runnings?

g-star said:

What do you guys recommend as far as a fermentation temperature schedule? I ask because I made the old world version, pitched at 64F, and let it free rise to 75F. I then applied external heat to get it to 82F within 12 hours.

I got dinged by 4 different judges for the beer being too solventy/harsh, and I can detect it as well. They all blame it on too hot of a fermentation, and I have to agree.

I know the stated practice of Westvelteren in BLAM is to get it up into the 80's, but I'm not so sure this can be directly correlated to a home setup due to differences in fermentor geometry, open vs. closed, etc.

Any experience/guidance/advice would be appreciated.

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How long was it aged before you entered it?

g-star said:

What do you guys recommend as far as a fermentation temperature schedule? I ask because I made the old world version, pitched at 64F, and let it free rise to 75F. I then applied external heat to get it to 82F within 12 hours.

I got dinged by 4 different judges for the beer being too solventy/harsh, and I can detect it as well. They all blame it on too hot of a fermentation, and I have to agree.

I know the stated practice of Westvelteren in BLAM is to get it up into the 80's, but I'm not so sure this can be directly correlated to a home setup due to differences in fermentor geometry, open vs. closed, etc.

Any experience/guidance/advice would be appreciated.

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80% of my brews are belgian style, and therefore tend to be of higher alcohol. I have found that hot fermentation can definitely lead to fusal alcohol problems. As a general rule, I tend to try and keep my fermentation temps to 65-68 for the first 2 days (or at least 50 percent of attenuation) and then let it free rise. From personal experience it seems that the fusal alcohols are mostly produced during the crazy first 2 days of fermentation.

I definitely would not let it free rise (in most cases) for the entire fermentation process.

I have had some issues keeping this particular brew's temps under control. the hydro sample i tasted last night did not seem to have much in the way of hot alcohol, so looking good so far.

rjwhite41 said:

How long was it aged before you entered it?

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In my experience ageing has done nothing to reduce hot alcohol.

g-star said:

What do you guys recommend as far as a fermentation temperature schedule? I ask because I made the old world version, pitched at 64F, and let it free rise to 75F. I then applied external heat to get it to 82F within 12 hours.

I got dinged by 4 different judges for the beer being too solventy/harsh, and I can detect it as well. They all blame it on too hot of a fermentation, and I have to agree.

I know the stated practice of Westvelteren in BLAM is to get it up into the 80's, but I'm not so sure this can be directly correlated to a home setup due to differences in fermentor geometry, open vs. closed, etc.

Any experience/guidance/advice would be appreciated.

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All I can tell you is what I do. When I brew belgians that I want to run at high temps I use a water bath and an aquarium heater controlled by a temp controller. That way I can see the temp easily of the whole shebang which because of the thermal conductivity of water should be very similar to the center of the fermentation. Then I slowly increase the temp a few degrees after the third day. I go up 3-5 degrees until I stop at 85 on the controller which the highest I got the temp was 82 I think. Then I age it for an extended period of time at room temp and do a week or two of cold conditioning in my beer fridge before I bottle.

Thanks for the replies. The beer was 6 months old when I entered it in the first contest.

I recently made a dubbel at 1.068 using WLP530, and I tried a fermentation schedule closer to what some are recommending. I pitched at 64F and held it there for 3 days, then increased up to 74F over three days, then held it there for another 3 days. After 4 weeks, I'm going to keg it this weekend.

The few samples I've had don't seem to have noticeable hot alcohol character, but I will reserve judgment until it is ready to serve. I would say though, that the fermentation was considerably more sluggish this way, and it took about 10 days for the beer to reach FG (1.012). My Old World BDS based on this thread went from 1.095 to 1.012 in 6 days.

Although someone else had a different experience. The alcohol burn does age out in my beers. 6 months should be good though. I did the old world and it had that hot alcohol at first at about 6 months it aged out, now it's a year old, smooth as could be and delicious. If you are worried about fusels maintaining lower temps during the growth phase is the way to control them. You will get fewer esters though.

Just did the traditional. 8.8 Gallons. Pre fermenter it tastes incredible. I also did the 3/4 gallons reduction but made it 1.5 G. WOW was that incredible.

Ended with a 1.094 SG after boil.

Thank you all.

Brewed this beer a few months ago. Did a 6 gallon batch. When I put it in the chest freezer to ferment I had no problems hitting and maintaining 82F for a good while. The beer has turned out to be the best I have ever brewed.

It's currently 2 months in the bottle. I did a blog entry about the process if anyone is interested: http://www.goallgrain.com/2012/03/30/brewabelgian/

Man, my one has only been in the fermenter for a week. Currently sitting at 1.014 and the hydro samples are promising. Cant wait to sip this. Only a few months to go...

Has anyone done natural carbonation with this brew? I canned the final 5/8 G and plan on adding it at bottling.

Any thoughts?

I was planning on brewing this up tomorrow, but just realized I forgot to make my starter. I have a vial of 530 in the fridge. I can whip up a starter real quick, but don't think I'll have enough time to step it up. If I make a 1.5l starter now, that will give me about 30 hours until pitching time. Do you think this will work? A quick response is appreciated

Yes, I would make a 2 liter starter, and roll with it.

Nierika said:

I was planning on brewing this up tomorrow, but just realized I forgot to make my starter. I have a vial of 530 in the fridge. I can whip up a starter real quick, but don't think I'll have enough time to step it up. If I make a 1.5l starter now, that will give me about 30 hours until pitching time. Do you think this will work? A quick response is appreciated

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I've made a 4 gallon batch without any starter at all. I can't say whether it is as good as the real Westy, but it's pretty darn good by my standards. Very smooth, no off flavors. saq mentioned that underpitching might actually be a good thing with this beer, assuming that you don't overdo it and follow the fermentation schedule carefully.

Hey, I've been reading the ink off this thread for the past two months and I think I'm ready to start getting my stuff together. I was going over my beersmith file and I realized I have a couple questions...

I'm planning on doing the traditional but this is going to be my first decoction. You have 30min set for the two decoction mashes but what does the boil of the decocted liquor look like? Do I bring it to a boil fast and simmer it for the 30 min or do I ramp so I'm boiling at the end of the sach- rest?

My beer smith came up with the same volumes and temps
As the decoction recipie first posted but if I boil off too much these temps ain't gonna be right.

Anybody do the deccoction?

I've done several decoctions. I would say I do a medium boil, more grain than liquid and stir nearly constantly. The volumes take some playing around to get your rest temps right. Can someone post the braukaiser link that explains decoction mashing? I would but I'm on my phone right now.

I had a minute so I ran to my office. Here's the write up and I believe there are some videos on youtube as well.

Thought I'd do a follow up on my version of this. Judges scores were 33 and 32, not bad but I honestly thought it would do much better. It IS a fantastic beer and the comments of the judges said so as well, I entered it as a Belgian Specialty, perhaps I should have entered it as a tripel given the fact that I used a smaller grain bill so it could be ready in time for comp., as it was this was less than 3 months old. I also used clear candi sugar (couldn't find liquid dark, I know I know, clear candi is almost the same as no candy, but it did help dry it out)

In any case, will brew this again to form and will let you know how it comes out, I have made a few mods that I'll datail later.

I checked my gravity at day 5 & day 7 and seem to be stuck @ 1.024. I did overshoot my OG by quite a bit. (OG was 1.103), so I'm not really sure what to expect for my FG. Also, I've been keeping it at 82 degrees using a brewbelt. Last night I forgot to unplug it before going to bed. When I came down this morning the temp was off the strip on the carboy. Took a sample about an hour after unplugging and was at 85 degrees.

My questions are:
1- Did I kill off my yeast? I'm not sure what temps the 530 can tolerate.
2- Should I get another starter going and repitch?

Nierika said:

I checked my gravity at day 5 & day 7 and seem to be stuck @ 1.024. I did overshoot my OG by quite a bit. (OG was 1.103), so I'm not really sure what to expect for my FG. Also, I've been keeping it at 82 degrees using a brewbelt. Last night I forgot to unplug it before going to bed. When I came down this morning the temp was off the strip on the carboy. Took a sample about an hour after unplugging and was at 85 degrees.

My questions are:
1- Did I kill off my yeast? I'm not sure what temps the 530 can tolerate.
2- Should I get another starter going and repitch?

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Well, you're already in the upper 70's in terms of apparent attenuation, so I don't think that adding more yeast is going to do much in a 10%+ ABV beer. I would just condition it as is and see how it turns out. Won't be quite as dry as the real thing, but might still be a very nice beer.

I made 10 gallons of this recipe and put Jolly Pumpkin dregs in 5 gallons of it. It smells delicious. I don't know if you like funky/sour beers, but that would bring down the FG some if you don't get it down otherwise.

Nierika said:

I checked my gravity at day 5 & day 7 and seem to be stuck @ 1.024. I did overshoot my OG by quite a bit. (OG was 1.103), so I'm not really sure what to expect for my FG. Also, I've been keeping it at 82 degrees using a brewbelt. Last night I forgot to unplug it before going to bed. When I came down this morning the temp was off the strip on the carboy. Took a sample about an hour after unplugging and was at 85 degrees.

My questions are:
1- Did I kill off my yeast? I'm not sure what temps the 530 can tolerate.
2- Should I get another starter going and repitch?

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You could also possibly get a few more points out of a little amylase enzyme if it's not the yeast.

Nierika said:

I checked my gravity at day 5 & day 7 and seem to be stuck @ 1.024. I did overshoot my OG by quite a bit. (OG was 1.103), so I'm not really sure what to expect for my FG. Also, I've been keeping it at 82 degrees using a brewbelt. Last night I forgot to unplug it before going to bed. When I came down this morning the temp was off the strip on the carboy. Took a sample about an hour after unplugging and was at 85 degrees.

My questions are:
1- Did I kill off my yeast? I'm not sure what temps the 530 can tolerate.
2- Should I get another starter going and repitch?

Click to expand...

Don't use alpha amylaze unless you can denature it. Just put it away and wait. Sometimes this yeast will take forever to chew threw the last few points. When I did my version of this it got stuck at 1.028. Didn't budge for a month so I put it in the basement and forgot about it. I didn't check it for nearly 6 months. When I did it was down to 1.012. By the way, I believe I underpitched and that's what caused the problem.

Amylase enzyme doesn't need to be denatured it will only go so far. It's not the same as beano. Yeast produce their own amylase in a sense which is what allows some to ferment maltotriose and others can't. I used amylase enzyme in a dubbel that finished too sweet. I put the enzyme in there and it dropped to 1.012 and stopped. It was perfect until I developed a pedio rope from a careless cross contamination I caused at some point.

g-star said:

Well, you're already in the upper 70's in terms of apparent attenuation, so I don't think that adding more yeast is going to do much in a 10%+ ABV beer. I would just condition it as is and see how it turns out. Won't be quite as dry as the real thing, but might still be a very nice beer.

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The sample was pretty tasty as is. There was sweetness there but not cloying. Also, I hadn't read the whole thread when I bought my ingredients. My LHBS had the Candi Syrup brand syrup. I bought 2 D-90 and 1 D-45. With 10 min left in the boil, my scale crapped out so I had to just wing it with syrup measurements.

After reading more It seems like a lot of people are using the D-180 for this recipe. For those of you using it, what amounts did you use?

Damn, I guess I will just have to brew this again to get it right...

Last time I made the old world I used 16.5% of my total beer as D-180. So for my 8.5ish gallon batch I used almost 4.5lbs of the syrup. I don't know for sure I had my notes in a beersmith file from the last brew and it crashed so I lost the modifications I made the day before brewing because the standard recipe for me is 7.5gal. My recipe is slight modified too from the original in the post. Also as a bit of side fun the reason for my almost 9 gallon batch was to split some off and do sour cherry and oak. So I have three gallons of sour cherry oaked quad along with my standard version.

Nierika I see your in Philly. I suggest you look into getting some ECY09 from Princton Homebrew and brew this recipe with that yeast. It made for a very very nice beer.

Thanks for the heads up. I've heard some good things about East Coast Yeast!

Brewed traditional last night. Wondering how long it took for your fermentors to climb into the 80's? I am at 78 within 20 hours of pitching. I do have the fridge set to slow this beast down at 81.

I have seen several people come back and report on comp results with this beer so I thought I would do the same. I got a 29 and as many people before me have stated I was knocked big time for fusels with all responses telling me to lower my ferm temp. I think it's a little odd when quads I drink have more fusels than my beer but fyi for all others looking at this fermentation regimen.

rjwhite41 said:

I have seen several people come back and report on comp results with this beer so I thought I would do the same. I got a 29 and as many people before me have stated I was knocked big time for fusels with all responses telling me to lower my ferm temp. I think it's a little odd when quads I drink have more fusels than my beer but fyi for all others looking at this fermentation regimen.

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Thanks for sharing. Also, which version did you submit and did you do anything different then the OP versions? What comp were you in?

In my experience, letting this yeast rip up into the low 80's uncontrolled in a high gravity wort is a mistake in a typical homebrew bucket/carboy setup. Too many fusels produced this way.

Much better results obtained by keeping temps in the mid 60's for the first 48-72hrs, then ramping up to 75F over the course of a week.

I've found that many times with competitions beers are judged on a preconceived idea of what the beer should be. I wonder how a real Westy would fare at these comps compared to the homebrewed versions. I know saq ended up rated better than the real deal in a judging he was involved with.

smokinghole said:

I've found that many times with competitions beers are judged on a preconceived idea of what the beer should be. I wonder how a real Westy would fare at these comps compared to the homebrewed versions. I know saq ended up rated better than the real deal in a judging he was involved with.

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saq ran that judging.

smokinghole said:

I wonder how a real Westy would fare at these comps compared to the homebrewed versions. I know saq ended up rated better than the real deal in a judging he was involved with.

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Interesting question. I've had the real deal several times, and it has no detectable fusel/solvent character, which is just one part of its unique charm. I wish I could say the same about my Old World version, but I've got to keep it real.