Hoppy Wheat or Hoppy Wit?

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dirty_martini

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Here in SoCal the weather is starting to warm up so I was thinking about doing up a wheat beer, but with a california flare. The thing is, I cant decide whether I should go hoppy wheat ala Gumballhead or Hop Sun, or whether I should make a true Belgian Style Witbier, only with a big late hop addition for flavor. The big difference being the yeast. I would use a traditional witbier yeast if I went that route or just something cleaner like s-04 if it was just a hoppy wheat. Also, with the witbier I would still use the coriander and orange peel as late additions, they would just be accompanied by a big hop flavor addition. Heres my two recipes to see the difference.

Hoppy Wheat
SG - 1.052
FG - 1.012
5.2%abv
33 IBUs

5lb 2-row
4lb Wheat
1lb Oats
.25oz Summit 60min
.25oz Summit 30min
2oz Citra KO
ferment with s-04

Hoppy Wit
SG - 1.052
FG - 1.012
5.2% alc
20 IBUs

5lb 2-row
4lb Wheat
1lb Oats
.25oz Summit 60min
.5oz Coriander 5min
.5oz Fresh Orange Peel 5min
2oz Citra KO
ferment with WLP400 Belgian Wit

The changes are subtle, but I imagine the 2 beers to be dramatically different. Just know Im not worried about "to style", Im just going back and forth between which style I feel I should brew. Just figured any input is good.
 
Try 'em both and compare :mug:.

If I had to choose, I would go with the hoppy wheat recipe. Just seems the hop flavors will blend better in that beer. Not sure how the spice of the Belgian would pair with the hop...
 
rfavors said:
Try 'em both and compare :mug:.

If I had to choose, I would go with the hoppy wheat recipe. Just seems the hop flavors will blend better in that beer. Not sure how the spice of the Belgian would pair with the hop...

I'm leaning the other way partially because we don't know. I think hops work well with the spice, it's generally the bitterness that I think clashes. By keeping the bitterness low, it's all about the flavors melding. Even with a big late hop addition, I don't think it will overpower since I'm not dry hopping. It's all a guess though.
 
I made an imperial american wheat two months ago which is conditioning right now. I did 1 oz of warrior at 60, zero aroma additions, and will be adding 2 oz of cascade and 2 oz citra as hop tea before it gets kegged for the freshest possible hop flavor. I can't say for certain that this is an awesome beer but I'm pretty sure it's going to be one of my best.

The next beer I am going to make is a sorachi ace wit. Sorachi is supposed to taste kind of lemony, so I figured it would be good for a wit.

Those are just two ideas.
 
sorachis definitely have a lemony flavor. they could work in this type of beer. I think with the one Im planning, the coriander will already give off a lemony note, the orange flavor will be there from the zest, and the citra should add some tropical fruit, grapefruit, and pine to go along with the spicy, slightly tart character of the yeast. I think im leaning this direction as I want a little of the belgian character
 
I'd move some of the summit late, it'll add to the orange/tangerine flavor. I recently just did an american wheat with citra/summit and it came out great. I don't think you could go wrong with either yeast, I went with S-05, but was considering switching to 400 next time.
 
dcp27 said:
I'd move some of the summit late, it'll add to the orange/tangerine flavor. I recently just did an american wheat with citra/summit and it came out great. I don't think you could go wrong with either yeast, I went with S-05, but was considering switching to 400 next time.

In this case, I already have the orange flavor from the zest so it's just a bittering hop. However, I have an IPA planned with summits and citra as late additions. I'm glad to hear your beer turned out great. How much of each did you you use late?
 
I used about 1.25oz of each between the last 5 mins and dry hopping (only used a small bittering add beyond that). It gave a pretty big, fruity nose full of guava & tangerine.
 
I used about 1.25oz of each between the last 5 mins and dry hopping (only used a small bittering add beyond that). It gave a pretty big, fruity nose full of guava & tangerine.

sounds exactly what I am going for...except I may throw a small touch of chinook in there to give a little Pine and aggression so it isnt too fruity and one note so to speak. so i guess not "exactly':mug:

After going back and reading Brewing with Wheat, Ive found out that Dieu du Ciel make a witbier like the one I want to make called cascade blanche. apparently it has big late additions and dry hops of cascades on top of their witbier recipe. I dont want to dry hop because I dont want to overwhelm. Im wondering if 2oz at KO is too much for a beer with such a light malt profile. I want the coriander, orange peel, and yeast to come through with that tropical/citrus hoppy note as well.

Any thoughts if 2oz of a potent hop like citra at KO without a dry hop might be too much for a 5% light wheat beer? I want it to be there, but not overpower.
 
I shall now make a grand, sweeping pronouncement. You have been warned. ;)

Late hops in Witbier = Blech. Hops are not part of the spice profile of Witbier. Period. Coriander, bitter orange peel, perhaps paradise seed; these are what I expect to find. Not hops. Dieu du Ciel only ever brewed the above-referenced beer once, in 2009. Let the tropical citrus come from where it's supposed to come from - bitter Curaçao orange peel.

If you must brew a hop bomb - and really? Why? Just brew a refreshing wheat beer to style and call it a day - carpet-bomb an American Wheat.

That's my two cents! :D

Bob
 
Bob said:
I shall now make a grand, sweeping pronouncement. You have been warned. ;)

Late hops in Witbier = Blech. Hops are not part of the spice profile of Witbier. Period. Coriander, bitter orange peel, perhaps paradise seed; these are what I expect to find. Not hops. Dieu du Ciel only ever brewed the above-referenced beer once, in 2009. Let the tropical citrus come from where it's supposed to come from - bitter Curaçao orange peel.

If you must brew a hop bomb - and really? Why? Just brew a refreshing wheat beer to style and call it a day - carpet-bomb an American Wheat.

That's my two cents! :D

Bob

Lucky for me I'm not trying to brew a Belgian witbier or a hop bomb. I love what late addition hops can add in flavor without overwhelming. I dont want big bitterness. What I'm looking to do is add my own personal twist on an old style. That's all.

I believe in subtlety, not hit you in your face flavors. I think the addition of the hops at the end will simply add another layer of flavor. Not make it a hop bomb by any means.
 
Lucky for me I'm not trying to brew a Belgian witbier or a hop bomb. I love what late addition hops can add in flavor without overwhelming. I dont want big bitterness. What I'm looking to do is add my own personal twist on an old style. That's all.

I believe in subtlety, not hit you in your face flavors. I think the addition of the hops at the end will simply add another layer of flavor. Not make it a hop bomb by any means.

Wait, what?

I refer you, sir, to your original post, in which you wrote:

The thing is, I cant decide whether I should go hoppy wheat ala Gumballhead or Hop Sun, or whether I should make a true Belgian Style Witbier, only with a big late hop addition for flavor.

I recognize West Coasters have a different idea of what constitutes a hop bomb. ;) To me, adding flavor/aroma hops in the manner which you describe to styles which aren't supposed to have any - in amounts which I advise in styles like ESB - constitutes brewing a hop bomb.

But that's semantics. Practically speaking, if you think 2 ounces of a hops variety with as pronounced a flavor as Citra is "subtle", I think you think the word means something it does not mean. In either case, such an excessive addition won't "add another layer of flavor"; it will dominate all other flavors to the point of obliteration (unless of course you go completely over the top with those flavors, too, at which point I start asking you about arms races).

Really, dude, situations and styles do exist where it's not a good idea to simply chuck some more hops in the kettle. This is one of them. One of a master brewer's characteristics is restraint. :D

Cheers,

Bob
 
Bob said:
Wait, what?

I refer you, sir, to your original post, in which you wrote:

I recognize West Coasters have a different idea of what constitutes a hop bomb. ;) To me, adding flavor/aroma hops in the manner which you describe to styles which aren't supposed to have any - in amounts which I advise in styles like ESB - constitutes brewing a hop bomb.

But that's semantics. Practically speaking, if you think 2 ounces of a hops variety with as pronounced a flavor as Citra is "subtle", I think you think the word means something it does not mean. In either case, such an excessive addition won't "add another layer of flavor"; it will dominate all other flavors to the point of obliteration (unless of course you go completely over the top with those flavors, too, at which point I start asking you about arms races).

Really, dude, situations and styles do exist where it's not a good idea to simply chuck some more hops in the kettle. This is one of them. One of a master brewer's characteristics is restraint. :D

Cheers,

Bob

Ok, you caught me in my original post. It was really meant to give a base on the stylist difference that the beer would be based on. But it didn't mean that it had to be "to style".

As for your hop bomb comment, I don't believe adding a hop component to a beer makes it a hop bomb. Hops are just another component on beer. I hate hearing that styles aren't meant to be messed with. If that was the case, the world would have a lot less options for beer. Somebody had to try something different at some point, otherwise there would only be one style if beer.

My inspiration for this beer is the Belgian beers that set being made with American hops. Bruery mischief, captain Lawrence xtra gold, Belgian IPAs, etc. I don't particularly like the Belgian IPAs as the bitterness doesn't blend well with the yeast. However, the Belgian styles that used a late hop addition with low bitterness turned out nicely.

Now like you said, 2nd of citra might overwhelm. If you saw some of my previous posts, I actually asked about that. I only thought of that big of an addition because I was not dry hopping, and some aroma would be scrubbed during fermentation. I was thinking of cutting back to an oz, so the coriander, orange peel, and hops would maybe blend better.

But if you think that I shouldn't do it because of style guidelines, you're just talking to the wrong person. I don't believe in being restricted to guidelines because winning ribbons is of no interest to me. Brewing interesting beers is more important. And if it doesn't work, chalk it up to experience.
 
when I did my american wheat, I didn't think what I did (2.5oz 5mins or less) was too much. some judges did tho and said it overwhelmed the rest.... ok it kinda did, but I wanted hops and subtle wheat.
 
I hate hearing that styles aren't meant to be messed with. If that was the case, the world would have a lot less options for beer. Somebody had to try something different at some point, otherwise there would only be one style if beer.

While that's kind of what I'm saying, it's only part. The other, larger part has nothing to do with American Wheat - you can brew an American Wheat IIPA, and I encourage you to do so - but more to do with how ingredients play with/off one another in a complex beer like Witbier.

Really, I'm not saying styles aren't meant to be messed with. More on that later, though.

My inspiration for this beer is the Belgian beers that set being made with American hops. Bruery mischief, captain Lawrence xtra gold, Belgian IPAs, etc. I don't particularly like the Belgian IPAs as the bitterness doesn't blend well with the yeast. However, the Belgian styles that used a late hop addition with low bitterness turned out nicely.

There are many Belgian ales made with American hops. Frankly, my palate likes none of them, and that plays an important role in my opinion of them. More importantly, though, is this: None of the beers referenced above have spices. None of them are wheat beers. They're simply malt, sugar, hops, water and yeast; they're all pale ales (Tripel is pale and it's an ale ;) ). They don't have the added layers of complexity provided by wheat (malted and unmalted), oats (possibly), lactic acid and brewing spices.

Now like you said, 2nd of citra might overwhelm. If you saw some of my previous posts, I actually asked about that. I only thought of that big of an addition because I was not dry hopping, and some aroma would be scrubbed during fermentation. I was thinking of cutting back to an oz, so the coriander, orange peel, and hops would maybe blend better.

There's where you and I differ. When I put spices in a beer, I want the spices to shine. In a spiced Belgian-style ale, I want to show off two flavors: Spices and yeast esters. Hops just get in the way of that.*

See, if too many things are going on in the beer, it's not "complex"; it's confusing. When you mix a few flavors, it's relatively simple to achieve a synergy or balance. You're talking about mixing a whole gamut of flavors. It's hard enough to brew a good Witbier. Master that first, then see where adding your late hops gets you.

Think of flavors like paint colors. Mix yellow and blue, you get green. Vary the proportions, you get varying shades of green. Add in a bit of red, and you get a quite different hue that's still recognizably green. Now add all the colors in your paint box. What do you end up with? A kind of grayish-brown that doesn't look like anything nice. The same thing happens when you start throwing too many flavors into a beer (or food). Instead of a broad spectrum of flavors, you end up with muddy, gray "blah".

But if you think that I shouldn't do it because of style guidelines, you're just talking to the wrong person. I don't believe in being restricted to guidelines because winning ribbons is of no interest to me. Brewing interesting beers is more important. And if it doesn't work, chalk it up to experience.

It ain't about ribbons. In fact, like etiquette, beer style isn't about you.
It's not about restricting you or cramping your creative vision or any other of that drivel. It's about other people. It's about respecting other people and their expectations.

More accurately, I'm worried about what you call the beer when you hand it to the drinker. If you serve me your late-hopped Belgian-style spiced wheat beer and call it a Witbier, I'm not going to be impressed with your creativity and thinking-outside-the-boxness; I'm going to think you don't know how to brew a good Witbier. Subconsciously, I'm going to think you misled me.

I think you could brew a far more interesting Witbier by varying the spices other than hops. Sure, you need a certain amount of hops, coriander and bitter orange peel. But there are other spices than hops which blend really well with the de rigeur spices. Paradise seed. Lemongrass. Lemon balm. Rosemary. Star anise. White pepper. Bay leaf. Cloves. Ginger. All these and more have been used in Witbier.

If you get creative with spices other than hops, you'll still have something discernibly Witbier which is also much more interesting than your run-of-the-mill Hoegaarden.

Now, it's true I've been scratching my head about this trend to hop the **** out of everything I've been seeing for the past decade. I find it disturbing, not innovative. There are some places extra hops simply don't belong. Just like there are some places garam masala or red chili powder or sugar don't belong. You wouldn't dump Tabasco sauce on Frosted Flakes; Frosted Flakes only taste "right" with milk on 'em, right?

It's more disturbing when perfectly good beers go by the wayside because the beer geeks can't train their two remaining taste buds to appreciate anything that doesn't have 100 IBU or excessive finishing hops. The first brewery for which I made wort let a half-dozen different outstanding beers lapse out of the portfolio because people couldn't get enough of the beer which we first made as a joke (we added 4 times the finishing and dry hops to a cask of our American IPA). We lost our ESB, APA, all the way up to and including the American IPA the over-hopped beer was based on.

I'm to the point I don't even go to my local homebrew club's meetings anymore. Out of the dozens of brewers who attend, there might be one decent Brown Ale or ESB out of dozens of Raspberry Imperial Gose or some other crazy-huge, barely drinkable junk. Trouble is, half these guys can't really brew their way out of a paper bag unless it's some humongous batsh!t recipe. Ask 'em to brew a Pale Mild and they'd fail. Utterly.

Don't get me wrong, now; there are times I enjoy an Imperial Stout or big IPA or Belgian-style Quadruppel or funky, Brett-y whatsit. But for most occasions, give me a session ale or Witbier. Hell, even American Wheat! The damned shame is that stuff is rare in the craft scene, at least around here, because people are too busy brewing big beers with names like "Thermonuclear HopBCM".

Cheers,

Bob

* And before you go there, no, hops are not just another spice.
 
There are many Belgian ales made with American hops. Frankly, my palate likes none of them, and that plays an important role in my opinion of them. More importantly, though, is this: None of the beers referenced above have spices. None of them are wheat beers. They're simply malt, sugar, hops, water and yeast; they're all pale ales (Tripel is pale and it's an ale ). They don't have the added layers of complexity provided by wheat (malted and unmalted), oats (possibly), lactic acid and brewing spices.

This is where you and I differ. I enjoy belgian styles utilizing american hops...as long as it isnt made to be like an IPA. I like the citrus quality of american hops playing off the yeast qualities as long as it isnt overdone. One shouldnt overwhelm the other.

There's where you and I differ. When I put spices in a beer, I want the spices to shine. In a spiced Belgian-style ale, I want to show off two flavors: Spices and yeast esters. Hops just get in the way of that.*

See, if too many things are going on in the beer, it's not "complex"; it's confusing. When you mix a few flavors, it's relatively simple to achieve a synergy or balance. You're talking about mixing a whole gamut of flavors. It's hard enough to brew a good Witbier. Master that first, then see where adding your late hops gets you.

Think of flavors like paint colors. Mix yellow and blue, you get green. Vary the proportions, you get varying shades of green. Add in a bit of red, and you get a quite different hue that's still recognizably green. Now add all the colors in your paint box. What do you end up with? A kind of grayish-brown that doesn't look like anything nice. The same thing happens when you start throwing too many flavors into a beer (or food). Instead of a broad spectrum of flavors, you end up with muddy, gray "blah".

I agree with you. Too many people overdo the ingredients and muddle the flavors. I understand that you like the let the spices shine. For me, I see them as playing off of one another. I see the lemony notes of the coriander, the orange notes from the zest, and the citrus/fruit notes from the hops working off of one another...no different than using a blend of hops or spices. Why can only spices work with spices or hops with hops? Just because Im using coriander and orange zest, it doesnt mean I can only use grains of paradise, lemongrass, etc.

More accurately, I'm worried about what you call the beer when you hand it to the drinker. If you serve me your late-hopped Belgian-style spiced wheat beer and call it a Witbier, I'm not going to be impressed with your creativity and thinking-outside-the-boxness; I'm going to think you don't know how to brew a good Witbier. Subconsciously, I'm going to think you misled me.

It's more disturbing when perfectly good beers go by the wayside because the beer geeks can't train their two remaining taste buds to appreciate anything that doesn't have 100 IBU or excessive finishing hops. The first brewery for which I made wort let a half-dozen different outstanding beers lapse out of the portfolio because people couldn't get enough of the beer which we first made as a joke (we added 4 times the finishing and dry hops to a cask of our American IPA). We lost our ESB, APA, all the way up to and including the American IPA the over-hopped beer was based on.

I'm to the point I don't even go to my local homebrew club's meetings anymore. Out of the dozens of brewers who attend, there might be one decent Brown Ale or ESB out of dozens of Raspberry Imperial Gose or some other crazy-huge, barely drinkable junk. Trouble is, half these guys can't really brew their way out of a paper bag unless it's some humongous batsh!t recipe. Ask 'em to brew a Pale Mild and they'd fail. Utterly.

Heres where you and I agree to an extent. I find a lot of homebrewers at my old club made horrible beer in general...especially the experiments. For me, hops are the flavor characteristic I like to play around with in many of my beers, but that doesnt mean Im overdoing it. In many ways, I treat them like spices. I have brewed plenty of witbiers that have turned out nicely along with berliners and goses (not really into hefes). I know how to brew a solid wheat beer. I just want to play around with it a little. Im not the most traditional brewer. My style is to take standard styles and make them uniquely mine. Dont worry though...if I tweak the recipe, I dont try to play it off as what the base style was. I wouldnt call this a witbier to someone trying it. I would just call it my version of a wheat beer. Something utilizing a little from the belgian character with a west coast twist. Oh, and I tend to brew more sessionable beers. Im trying to do the reverse...un-imperialize styles.

I have the foundation for brewing standard styles...I just like thinking a little outside the box. I tend to brew 2.5gal batches as "pilot batches", but if I post the recipe I go for 5gal since thats easiest to comprehend.

For the record, its chilling right now. I did use the citra in a late addition, but I did back it off to 1oz along with .5oz of fresh orange zest and .5oz of crushed coriander. Heres to hoping it turns out like I hope. And if not...I can say I at least tried. :mug:
 
Outstanding internet arguing.
No, really, I've found a lot of the points enlightening.

While I tend to not be on the side of the OP, I still find a few points valid and interesting. The side I support brings intelligent arguement against what they consider a bad idea. Bravo, its not easy to be so forthcoming yet unoffensive in an e-fight. Surely some feelings have been hurt, but both sides did well showing restraint.

As the presiding judge of this battle, I declare me the winner. Thanks for the thoughtful debate, guys.

Ok, so how's the beer so far?
 
NuclearRich said:
Outstanding internet arguing.
No, really, I've found a lot of the points enlightening.

While I tend to not be on the side of the OP, I still find a few points valid and interesting. The side I support brings intelligent arguement against what they consider a bad idea. Bravo, its not easy to be so forthcoming yet unoffensive in an e-fight. Surely some feelings have been hurt, but both sides did well showing restraint.

As the presiding judge of this battle, I declare me the winner. Thanks for the thoughtful debate, guys.

Ok, so how's the beer so far?

I disagree with the majority of homebrewers since I don't particularly brew to style because I'm trying to create my own unique niche as far as my brewing style. That said, no reason to get heated when we disagree.

As for the beer, it's tasty but it has no real hop flavor, even with the late addition of citra. The orange peel and coriander are the dominant flavors. I'm half tempted to drop a small dry hop in to get some of that aroma there, but not so much it hides the other aromatics. As it stands right now, it's a fantastic witbier, but not what I was aiming for.
 
Hey, if you aren't trying to be the best withing the margins of a guideline, then why care about the guideline? If you want to make something that you enjoy personally, then have at it!
It may be that the hop flavor of Citra isn't quite what you are looking for out of this beer. Standard NW hops have that distinctive grapefruity grassy flavor, and I think Citra may be more subtle in those flavors with a more fruity bouquet. I have also heard that too much Citra can be very dominating, so be careful with the dry hop.
 
Hey, if you aren't trying to be the best withing the margins of a guideline, then why care about the guideline? If you want to make something that you enjoy personally, then have at it!
It may be that the hop flavor of Citra isn't quite what you are looking for out of this beer. Standard NW hops have that distinctive grapefruity grassy flavor, and I think Citra may be more subtle in those flavors with a more fruity bouquet. I have also heard that too much Citra can be very dominating, so be careful with the dry hop.

Believe me, I dont care about the guideline as far as winning medals and such. I respect the guideline as a baseline for the beer style, but allows me to tweak to my own tastes.

For the record, I take back my initial thoughts. I tasted it again since chilling the keg and the hop character is there, and its subtle like I wanted. I wouldnt have minded more tropical fruit notes from the hops coming out, but the flavor thats there is a nice compliment to the orange peel and coriander. Subtlety isnt a bad thing. Ill be curious to see how the beer tastes once its carbonated.
 
Hoppy wheat can mean a lot of things. Commercially speaking, I heart stuff like Lagunitas Sumpin' Sumpin' and Schneider Edel-Weiss. Bear Republic has a highly hopped weizenbock called Das Koma with a crapton of noble hops, and it's quite nice.

Lagunitas Sumpin' Wild, Stone Cali-Belgique, and their ilk are not so pleasant to me. I can't imagine what a hoppy wit would be like, but I suppose I'd not appreciate undue masking of that subtle sulfur note that I want in a wit.
 
I just made a beer, a wit grain bill and spices (coriander and orange peel), but with Notty and a good dosing of cascade at the end of the boil. The hops dominated, really taste will a pale ale (good one at that), but Im sure that also was to do with the notty and not using something like WLP400.
 
944play said:
Hoppy wheat can mean a lot of things. Commercially speaking, I heart stuff like Lagunitas Sumpin' Sumpin' and Schneider Edel-Weiss. Bear Republic has a highly hopped weizenbock called Das Koma with a crapton of noble hops, and it's quite nice.

Lagunitas Sumpin' Wild, Stone Cali-Belgique, and their ilk are not so pleasant to me. I can't imagine what a hoppy wit would be like, but I suppose I'd not appreciate undue masking of that subtle sulfur note that I want in a wit.

The goal with this beer was to add a hop note to the profile without masking any of the other subtleties. Tasting it now that it's carbonated I can assure you the dominant flavors are the yeast, orange zest, and coriander. There is a soft hop flavor that adds a little citrus, grassy note. The hop flavor is no more aggressive than that of a Belgian beer with a late addition. The yeast is the star, with the spicing and hops playing a complimentary role. Just in this case the hop flavor is citrusy/grassy instead of spicy and herbal as the euro hops add.
 
I just made a beer, a wit grain bill and spices (coriander and orange peel), but with Notty and a good dosing of cascade at the end of the boil. The hops dominated, really taste will a pale ale (good one at that), but Im sure that also was to do with the notty and not using something like WLP400.

I'm actually doing (more or less) the same thing tomorrow. Keeping in style with a traditional wit, just using some late cascade hops. Just as an experiment. I could see the flavor leaning a little more towards a wheat-based pale ale once it's all said and done, but I'm fine with that result as well.
 
shanecb said:
I'm actually doing (more or less) the same thing tomorrow. Keeping in style with a traditional wit, just using some late cascade hops. Just as an experiment. I could see the flavor leaning a little more towards a wheat-based pale ale once it's all said and done, but I'm fine with that result as well.

My beer showed that even with a 1oz KO addition of a potent hop like citra, it doesn't mean it would overpower. I think to achieve what I was aiming for, I would've had to go 1.5oz or more at KO. The spices, orange zest, and yeast had no problems showing through.
 
Good debate here. I brewed a Citra Wit last weekend. 2 oz of citra went in near the end of the boil. I also left out orange all together to see what kind of citrus flavor I could get out of a sorachi citra combo.

You may say that this is not a proper wit bier, and I would not disagree. However it's what I wanted to try so why the hell not. If it turns out terrible, it will get dumped. But so far I don't think that's going to happen. So far I am loving the aroma.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 12.00 gal
Boil Size: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 3.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 38.1 %
2 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 9.5 %
8 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 38.1 %
2 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.5 %
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 5 4.8 %

0.35 oz Sorachi Ace [10.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 6.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 5.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 4.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [13.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 4.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

2.20 tsp Flour (Boil 10.0 mins)
1.00 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
1 Liter starter Belgian Wit II (White Labs #WLP410)
 
I myself wanted to do my wit with the sorachi ace/citra combo for its citrus enhancement, but i began wondering if the high cohumulone ratios in those high AA hops would detract from a beer with subtlety. I am scheduled to brew tomorrow, and will likely go with a more traditional hop schedule. I personally think that the bitterness of the high AA/cohumulone will blow out some good quality subtle flavors from both yeast and spicing.

I don't think your beer will be terrible. In fact, it may be quite good. However, the point of a wit is to have those subtle belgian qualities behind them, and I dont see such a strong hop providing a smooth palate to embrace those subtle qualities.
Now before you voraciously defend yourself, realize that I realize you are not going for traditional wit. Good for you for doing what you like, and I am sure/hope that it turns out delicious. However, if you aren't going to make it something, then dont call it that. In line with the cascadian black ales or whatever you want to call them, they just arent IPAs. I would just call it an american wheat, even irregardless of the yeast used.
 
I made a Belgian Wit that wasn't terribly high in IBUs, about 24 I think, that I fermented with 3711 and I dry hopped with 1.5 oz of Amarillo... it was so good.... Used Coriander and Orange Peel at whirlpool.

Had unmalted wheat and flaked oats, and I just fermented at 148. Perfect for the hot season.
 
The great thing about home brewing (and craft brewing) is you can do whatever you like. That of course doesn't mean it will be any good, or that anyone besides it's creator might like it. But the fact that it occurs is good. If that were not the case we would all still be sucking down light American lager.

Even within the relatively small world of Craft brew (when compared to the BMC market) you have styles that only a tiny fraction of so called craft brew lovers enjoy. Look at beers like Arrogant bastard or DFH 90 or 120 minute IPA. If craft brewers only brewed to the taste and views of the majority of craft brew drinkers then these beers would not exist.

However, if you aren't going to make it something, then dont call it that. In line with the cascadian black ales or whatever you want to call them, they just arent IPAs. I would just call it an american wheat, even irregardless of the yeast used.

The grist and yeast in my brew are spot on for the style and the IBUs are not that far out of style. Yes the hop varieties, and hop schedules are non-traditional, but I am still going to call this a wit style beer.
 
The grist and yeast in my brew are spot on for the style and the IBUs are not that far out of style. Yes the hop varieties, and hop schedules are non-traditional, but I am still going to call this a wit style beer.

Thats the best way to put it. A Wit "style" beer. Yes, wits have been made a certain way for a long time for a reason. It works. But somebody had to think "what would happen if I put a little coriander and orange peel in my brew?"

As for your beer, with all of those late citra additions I imagine your beer will come out more like a gumballhead style. Nothing wrong with that. I think the hops will be more prominant in your beer than with mine as it was only one late addition.

As for my beer, i shared it with some new neighbors in my apt building on 4th of july and everyone loved it. Nobody thought it was too hoppy. They all just thought it was a really good wheat beer. (they were all drinking bass, newcastle, and sam adams before trying my beer). They might not have had a judges palate, but the beer was tasty and to me, thats all that really matters.
 
That's exactly what im saying. They all thought it was a wheat beer. They all loved it. Good. The grist is accurate for a wit, but also a wheat.
 
Good debate here. I brewed a Citra Wit last weekend. 2 oz of citra went in near the end of the boil. I also left out orange all together to see what kind of citrus flavor I could get out of a sorachi citra combo.

You may say that this is not a proper wit bier, and I would not disagree. However it's what I wanted to try so why the hell not. If it turns out terrible, it will get dumped. But so far I don't think that's going to happen. So far I am loving the aroma.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 12.00 gal
Boil Size: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 3.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 38.1 %
2 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 9.5 %
8 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 38.1 %
2 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.5 %
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 5 4.8 %

0.35 oz Sorachi Ace [10.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 6.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 5.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [13.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 8 4.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [13.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 4.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

2.20 tsp Flour (Boil 10.0 mins)
1.00 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
1 Liter starter Belgian Wit II (White Labs #WLP410)

I just got the score sheet back on this one from a local home brew contest. I ended up submitting it in the American wheat category. After tasting it that was the most appropriate place for it. It did pretty will with an overall score of 38. One of the judges even gave it a 42.

Some of the comments:
Mouthful: good wheat profile balances the hops.

Flavor: Floral hops and malt balance well with the sweetness.
Spicy wheat and grainy, cracker like malt, light citrusy hop flavor.

Overall: Refreshing, well made. Features spicy wheat character and light citrus hop. A nice light lawn mower American wheat.

I could drink a six pack before mowing my lawn. A very good beer!


I am pretty happy with this and am working on version 2 now. I will probably drop the coriander as I don't think it added anything.
 
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