I hacked up a P-J diagram, not sure if it will work.

Here is what I am trying to accomplish.

-110v 2000w
-(2) 12v pumps (2amp?)
-PID with alarm for the HLT (only used as thermometer for the time being)
-PID controlled eHERMS (2000w in a 3 gallon keg with 20' 1/2" coil)

I hacked up the 110v BIAB diagram that P-J made to fit what I (think) need. Just want to run it by everyone to make sure it looks safe and functional.

Now I see that I failed to connect a neutral to the HLT switch.

Fixed

Hey wilfonzo,

I think this is exactly what i'm trying to do. Thanks for drawing it up! Can anyone confirm that this will work for us? Where did you get most of your stuff? I'm looking to place an order ebrewsupply and auberins in the next few days.

Is there no need for an SSR/heatsink for the second PID? Just wire it directly to the alarm/buzzer?

Are you just controlling the power to the control panel on/off with the E-stop?

I want my 2 pumps to be controlled by push buttons, and the heating element and buzzer to be able to be directly turned off via turn switches. LEDs will be used to indicate that there is power to the control panel and when there is power to the heating element.

What are you using for an enclosure? I'm thinking about the enclosure from ebrewsupply.com

Thanks,
Corey

-ebrewsupply, auber, and lightobject
-since I will just be using the HLT PID as a thermometer only (for now) I don't believe it will need one since it is not controlling anything
-I haven't found an enclosure I like enough yet

A few comments.
Regarding your wiring diagram itself - the one major thing you are missing that will not allow your panel to work - on the PIDs, pins 1 and 14 go to the buzzer, pin 13 is power in. On the left PID you have pins 1 and 14 taking power in (bad) and no alarm buzzer at all, so just get rid of all that. On the right PID you have the alarm kind of set up, but not right. You should have power going from Line 1 to a switch then to pin 13. From pins 1 and 14 then go to the buzzer directly. Then buzzer to neutral.

Another thing to consider - you have no means to turn the panel on / off. You do however have a lot of switches to turn each PID on, and then another switch to turn the element contactor on. Theoretically, as long as your panel is plugged in, the buttons are all live and everything goes. If you don't have kids / curious friends, that may work for you. A common solution is a second contactor installed prior to any of the distribution terminals, powered by a keyed switch - turn that off, there is no power to any of the downstream options. This would also allow you to get rid of the two switches for the individual PIDs, unless you really wanted to be able to turn off one of the PIDs mid brew for some reason.

For the sake of consistency, the SSR feed wire from pin 8 should also be purple.

You could save yourself a fuse connection and put a 2A fuse prior to where you split power to your PIDs, rather than 2 1A fuses after the split.

Otherwise, looks like you're on your way...
-Kevin

BadNewsBrewery said:

Another thing to consider - you have no means to turn the panel on / off. You do however have a lot of switches to turn each PID on, and then another switch to turn the element contactor on. Theoretically, as long as your panel is plugged in, the buttons are all live and everything goes. If you don't have kids / curious friends, that may work for you. A common solution is a second contactor installed prior to any of the distribution terminals, powered by a keyed switch - turn that off, there is no power to any of the downstream options. This would also allow you to get rid of the two switches for the individual PIDs, unless you really wanted to be able to turn off one of the PIDs mid brew for some reason.


-Kevin

Click to expand...

I think I have been convinced to get a second contactor (1st will be for the element) to use the key switch to turn the power on/off to the control panel (I was going to just use the emergency stop initially).

I was wondering about the two on/off push buttons to control the PIDs. I can't think of any reason that I would want my control panel on but the 2 PIDs off. Is there a common reason for turning on/off PIDs that i'm not thinking about?

Does it matter what kind of fuse(s) to get to make it work inside the control panel. Where do people commonly get these?

Corey

Thank You BadNewsBrewery, I can see the mistakes now. I will work on that later when I get time.
-As for the main power vs the PID switches, I'm not worried about anyone messing with it. It will only be plugged in when it is in use.
-I thought about the fuses and figured that one for each would be better that way if one blows I can pinpoint the problem easier, am I incorrect in this assumption or still unnecessary?

Smittygouv30- I plan on using this Fuse, I've seen a few people use them here. Auber reccomends 1a fast blow

Makes sense on the power issue, though Corey does have a good question - if you're only plugging it in when it's in use, when would you ever have the PIDs turned off? You could save $30-$40 and drop the two switches to power the PIDs.

You are dead right on the fuses thing - if you have one fuse per device you can troubleshoot much easier. It's a little more complicated on the install, but not by much. As they say - many ways to skin a cat.

-Kevin

Thanks for the fuse holder link. I'm interested to hear your reasoning for the being able to turn off the PIDs. I just want to make sure i'm not missing something in my plan. I don't want to do all this work and spend this money to regret something. I want it to be the bomb right from the start. haha

Have you decided which temperature sensor you are going with? I think i'm just going to "buck up" and get the RTD. http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=189

Corey

I plan on making this unit portable so I can use it as a sous vide cooker at work or elsewhere. When it is working as a sous vide cooker, there wont be any need for the PID that is only for temp, so I might as well turn it off. I guess it isn't that big of deal, I'm going to have to think about this one a bit and crunch some numbers.
The second PID will be running a LP burner in the future for the HLT, but for now it will be manual.

Ok, cleaned it up a bit and got rid of two PID power switches for one main. Not sure that I wired the main correctly

You still don't need power to pins 1 and 14 on the right PID - that's for alarm signaling.

BadNewsBrewery said:

You still don't need power to pins 1 and 14 on the right PID - that's for alarm signaling.

Click to expand...

What about the left PID is that correct? Based on your previous comments my understanding is that pin 13 should be power in and 1 and 14 should come out and go to the buzzer.

Does it matter where the alarm on/off switch is wired in? Should it be on the way to the buzzer from 1 and 14 or before the PID gets signal from pin 13?

Corey

OK, I see. Fixed?

I don't know enough about PIDs to know if it matters but P-J always draws his alarm buzzer hookup different. Check out some of his other drawings, like his one for my CP, to see what I mean.

For the lazy - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/bad-news-brewery-control-panel-368020/index2.html

I see what you are saying in the diagram PJ drew for you. It seems weird cutting the power line in (to 13) with the switch instead of the lines out to the buzzer (1 and 14). I wonder if there is a difference? Does cutting the line in totally reset the alarm settings vs just cutting the power on the way out to the buzzer just make it stop screeching.

Kevin, What's your intent with the BK alarm, will you have a temp probe to the BK?

I don't anticipate using my alarm too extensively, But what I would like for it to do is mainly 2 things. The RTD will be located on the ball valve on the outport of the MLT (like kals). From there I want it to first monitor the recirc temp and buzz if it gets out of range (should never happen with PID controlled HLT and herms coil but ya never know). Secondly i want to use it to buzz when mash is brought up to sparge temp and is ready to be drained to BK. I guess lastly when it does buzz I just want to be able to flip the 2-way switch to off to stop the madness.

Are both of these achievable with the 2352 PID and will this wiring set-up make it work? (Switch before going into pin 13, and then pins 1 and 14 going out to buzzer).

Thanks,

Corey

I can't really answer your first question, but it seems to work for others on here so I'm running with the way P-J drew it on mine.

For me - I will have a temperature probe in the BK as I'm using a PID to control the BK element. I can use the alarm to let me know when I get near to my temperature so I can monitor for hot-break foaming etc.

I understand what you're looking for and unfortunately can't tell you if it would or would not work. Hopefully someone else chimes in for you.
-Kevin

This is the original drawing I based it off of. I just moved the left pid over and wired it the same way P-J had it.

Interesting. May be worth a message to P-J, or hopefully he chimes in as to which way is better, or if it even matters.

FWIW here is how I would do alarms. I don't like the idea of being able to turn them off with a toggle/rotary switch as if you forget to turn them back on they are not there next time an alarm condition exists. I'm not telling anyone that they need to do it this way or that they should do it this way. Just throwing out another idea for perspective.

In the circuit below K1 is any NO contact that closes when an alarm condition is detected. It could be one of the alarms in the PID controller itself or a float switch or a ground fault detector... When K1 closes, however briefly, K2 picks up and is latched energized by the NO contact pair in parallel with K1. The only way to release K2 is to push the reset button and that will only de-energize it if the alarm condition no longer pertains (K1 is open).

When K2 energizes the lamp lights and the buzzer sounds. The buzzer can be silenced by pushing the Silence button which latches K3 on thus opening the NC contact pair in series with the buzzer. But the lamp will stay lit until the alarm condition is cleared and the reset button is pressed. This way if you left the room and got an PV+Hy alarm, for example, which only persisted for a few seconds you would know upon your return that something had gone awry.

BadNewsBrewery said:

Interesting. May be worth a message to P-J, or hopefully he chimes in as to which way is better, or if it even matters.

Click to expand...

Yea, hopefully he chimes in. I hate to message him as I'm sure his services are demanded by many. I was just reading a thread in this subforum and a guy wired his timer to the buzzer wrong and it was going off the whole time it was on until the timer hit zero then it shut off (backwards)! I really don't want that to happen to us.

Corey

I'm very intrigued by this and am contemplating following your advice. I am struggling a bit completely comprehending the issue of using a switch. Can you clarify what happens if the alarm is accidentally left switched off when the brew session is over and the control panel is turned off?

Interesting, it would be nice to be able to disable the audible part of the alarm only. However, I'm not sure that the "reset" feature would be beneficial for what I plan to use it for. Mine will be on a PID used solely to monitor the temperature of the manually fired LP HLT, which I'm sure I won't be precise enough to not over shoot the temp of causing the alarm to continually go off. It would make sense for me to have one on the HEX maybe I'll add that when it is time for version 2.0 when I automate the burner, but for now I'm looking to keep it simple to get my feet wet.

smittygouv30 said:

I'm very intrigued by this and am contemplating following your advice. I am struggling a bit completely comprehending the issue of using a switch. Can you clarify what happens if the alarm is accidentally left switched off when the brew session is over and the control panel is turned off?

Click to expand...

Then the alarm is disabled until you turn the switch back on. It doesn't matter when you do this. The system is then re-armed but if you forget to do it then the system is not. With the two push buttons the alarm is always armed.

ajdelange said:

Then the alarm is disabled until you turn the switch back on. It doesn't matter when you do this. The system is then re-armed but if you forget to do it then the system is not. With the two push buttons the alarm is always armed.

Click to expand...

Oh ok I see now. I was completely over thinking that. I do like the idea and can see it being very useful. For most people it seems they are using the combo light/buzzer product. This way they'd be separate devices cut the buzzer via a switch but the light remains illuminated until the system is no longer in an alarmed condition and the reset button is pressed.
I like this, I like this a lot.

I think ajdelange's sollution is beautiful, but adds a few extra switches and components to your build. My solution - a momentary switch with a NC block. If the alarm goes off and I don't want to hear it, I can hold in the switch long enough to go into the PID settings and turn the alarm off or adjust the alarm condition. You set the alarm for a reason, so the ability to turn a switch to turn the alarm off makes no sense to me. Use the PID to turn off the alarm if you don't want it.

I do like the latching LED idea that tells you an alarm DID go off, but might it be a case of 'too little, too late'? What are you going to do about the fact that your temperature was too high a few minutes ago? If the PID is working, the faulty condition should be fixed already and you're well on your way to making beer.

-Kevin

Per request here's another diagram that separates the two alarm outputs available from these controllers. In this circuit if either alarm is set it latches a light dedicated to it on and sounds the buzzer which can, as before, be silenced. Also as before once an alarm condition is detected its lamp stays on until the alarm condition is reduced and the reset button is pushed.

The situation in which the latching is helpful is the one in which, for example, there is a wild overshoot for whatever reason while you are absent. Without latching you would not be aware of this and if the beer turned out to be less than you hoped for you would be puzzled as to why. With latching you'd would at least have the overshoot as a possible explanation. Of course if you stay in the room that can't happen and it's unlikely that such a situation would occur anyway unless an SSR failed on but it's unlikely that such a failure would heal itself. I guess the controller output stage could 'stick' on and heal itself but again, that's unlikely. So I don't really see the alarm circuit of any kind as necessary and don't use them in my brewery(Edit: Actually I do - if the water level gets low enough in the atmospheric tank of my RO system the pump which empties the atmospheric tank gets latched off until a reset button is pushed even if the water level returns to normal). What I do do, however, is record the temperatures (main and decoction vessel) throughout the brew day. If you look carefully at the Auberin 'manual' you will see that there are menu settings for baud rate etc. This tells me that they sell very similar controllers which communicate (probably Modbus). A temperature profile is the ultimate monday morning quarterback's tool.

BadNewsBrewery said:

I think ajdelange's sollution is beautiful, but adds a few extra switches and components to your build. My solution - a momentary switch with a NC block. If the alarm goes off and I don't want to hear it, I can hold in the switch long enough to go into the PID settings and turn the alarm off or adjust the alarm condition. You set the alarm for a reason, so the ability to turn a switch to turn the alarm off makes no sense to me. Use the PID to turn off the alarm if you don't want it.

I do like the latching LED idea that tells you an alarm DID go off, but might it be a case of 'too little, too late'? What are you going to do about the fact that your temperature was too high a few minutes ago? If the PID is working, the faulty condition should be fixed already and you're well on your way to making beer.

-Kevin

Click to expand...

I agree on all counts. AJ's design is elegant, but has more controls than I want. A momentary switch is also an interesting idea.

I honestly see myself using my alarms in two ways - one as a head's up when I'm heating towards a goal, so I know to get off my duff and put the homebrew down and start working. The second would be tied to the timer in the SWA-2451.

I do like the idea of a temperature profile to really look back at things, and it would be great if the PID had an option to do data logging or at least provide a usable output to plug into a laptop to log.