How Many People use Oxygen?

After my first AG I've been worrying about my attenuation. I rough poured the wort out of the brew kettle and splashed things about but I'm worried I don't have enough oxygen in the wort for fermentation.

I was in HomeDepot today and saw those little oxygen bottles and thought about getting that and a stone.

So my question is how many people use oxygen?
How necessary/helpful is it?

I'm not really doing any big beers.

Paddockwood has a regulator for $36.00 and a stone for $20.00 is that a good deal?

How many batches do you get out of those little bottles?

Thanks

Rudeboy

Opps thought I was in Equipment. Mods feel free to move this there. Or leave it, I guess Oxygen is sort of an ingredient.

Williams brewstore has the regulator, airstone, and tubing for like $45.

malkore said:

Williams brewstore has the regulator, airstone, and tubing for like $45.

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The William's one also had a thin rod that makes adding oxygen very easy. I'm pretty sure they're the only ones that have that feature.

I use oxygen and like it. IMHO it's important but actually one of the last pieces of equipment you really NEED. I'd recommend holding off until you're either doing full extract boils or all grain.

I use it. I got the one from Williams Brewing, and love it. It's quick and easy on my back, and I get 15 - 20 brews out of a bottle of oxygen (after I learned to throttle it down). With the O2 in the starter and primary, my lag times have been reduced to about 3 - 4 hours, which means my beer is ready for drinking about 1 day earlier.

-a.

ajf said:

With the O2 in the starter and primary, my lag times have been reduced to about 3 - 4 hours, which means my beer is ready for drinking about 1 day earlier.
-a.

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Right but besides being ready a day before and saving a few minutes on the brew day does it make better beer? ie. more consistent results?

Rudeboy

I am just using the aquarium pump with filter and stone now, I did pick up a oxygen regulator off eBay but need to get a big tank somewhere yet. I think I will rig it up with the SS tube and stone, sounds much easier than wimpy hose I am using now.

I use it in all my starter and my wort before I pitch. This is a very important step that should not be skipped. I got my setup from B3.

This will make you think......http://beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245

Rudeboy said:

Right but besides being ready a day before and saving a few minutes on the brew day does it make better beer? ie. more consistent results?

Rudeboy

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The first few times I used it, consistency undoubtedly suffered. This inn't surprising, I was experimenting by doing something different. When I learned to throttle back on the O2 (just very light bubbles through the stone for 60 - 75 seconds), consistency returned, and the O2 tanks lasted a lot longer.
I think the link from ScubaSteve could shed some light on why this happened.

-a,

ScubaSteve said:

This will make you think......http://beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245

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This contradicts a lot of other experts. Without any credentials on this guy, I have no reason to trust him.

Let's break down the word "expert"

Ex- is a has been, something past.
spert- a drip under pressure.

Therefore an expert is an old drip under pressure.

I've been oxygenating both my starters and wort since I started brewing. This is the best deal I found on an oxygenation system:
http://www.breworganic.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=462

The Beer Tools article certainly makes one stop and think though. Like any other theory, I don't think we should either accept it or reject it out of hand. There was a vid posted a while back showing fermentation differences for some other variable. (For the life of me I can't remember what was varied.) Someone took their 5 gallon wort and split it between 5 - 1 gallon jugs, then varied some parameter. This is the kind of experimentation that someone needs to do with oxygenation. This needs to be done both at the starter level, to evaluate yeast cell number counts, and at the wort level to assess finished beer quality.

Not having a biology background, I have to depend on what I believe to be reliable sources on yeast growth and propogation. Both the Rajotte and White/Cherney yeast texts tend to be rather casual on the subject of oxygenation. (Just shake up the wort.)

Anyone on the forum who's been through one of the professional brewing programs care to comment?

I shake the hell out of my carboy before pitching my yeast. I get great attenuation and my fermentation usually starts in less than 3 hours (I see bubbles slowly in the airlock).

I also use this on the end of my siphoning tube:

top off with tap water and shake vigorously.

I use an aquarium pump sometimes with big beers.

ScubaSteve said:

This will make you think......http://beertools.com/html/articles.php?view=245

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<<Wort Aeration:

If possible, don't!>>

WTF. Now I'm confused.

<<
The reason is that it is not the wort that needs the oxygen, it is the yeast. By oxgenating the wort instead of the yeast starter, it will cause an over production of cells due to the excessive oxygen presence. This then leads to the production of unwanted esters and higher alcohols that will compromise beer flavor. >>

Although it does jibe with the Nottingham site that tells you how to re-hydrate dry yeast then says don't aerate the wort.

An interesting read (not). He should probably contact the folks at Wyeast, as they seem to think O2 works about twice as well as air. They measured about 33 ppm using O2, 15 ppm using air and around 6-8 ppm shaking. Granted, Wyeast is in the business of growing yeast, not making beer. However, I don't understand why the author feels oxygen would be toxic in the wort but not in the starter.

I found this very useful:
http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

-a.

david_42 said:

An interesting read (not). He should probably contact the folks at Wyeast, as they seem to think O2 works about twice as well as air. They measured about 33 ppm using O2, 15 ppm using air and around 6-8 ppm shaking. Granted, Wyeast is in the business of growing yeast, not making beer. However, I don't understand why the author feels oxygen would be toxic in the wort but not in the starter.

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I oxygenate using pure O2, so I'm not necessarily agreeing with the guy. I pretty much use dry yeast, so I figure they will use it. His remark that the starter needs the oxygen, not the wort makes some sense though.....

I'm no expert, but could it be that by oxygenating the wort, it's possible to over oxygenate? Leaving O2 behind when the yeast no longer need it? I dunno, I'm getting a headache. BTW, I do oxygenate my big stuff.

Nope. Never have...probably never will.

Neverhad a batch stall out on me...but 1.065 is the biggest beer I've done.

I just use two 7 gallon buckets (for a 10-gallon batch) and pour the beer back and forth violently until the suds are about to come over the walls of the bucket.

Did my Nierra Sevada yesterday and pitched a half cake of Nottingham from last weekends batch. 3.5 hours and I had a 1/2 inch of krausen already.

I have my 10-gallon brew sessions down to exacty 4 hours (not including grain crush time) and I try to keep things simple.

Sides...an O2 system sounds to "pretty" for my brewshop...

I've managed to get GREAT attenuation using pure O2 for about 30-90 seconds. If you go all-grain and full boil, you're getting rid of a lot of oxygen in the wort. It needs to be replaced, and you can't count on just surface exposure being totally sufficient. All it does it makes conditions more favorable for healthy yeast cells with healthy cell walls.

Never needed it.

david_42 said:

An interesting read (not). He should probably contact the folks at Wyeast, as they seem to think O2 works about twice as well as air. They measured about 33 ppm using O2, 15 ppm using air and around 6-8 ppm shaking. Granted, Wyeast is in the business of growing yeast, not making beer. However, I don't understand why the author feels oxygen would be toxic in the wort but not in the starter.

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I would tend to agree with him. He's just saying that most people over oxygenate when using pure O2. It's more difficult to do this when using only air. Also, yeast only need oxygen when they propagate so if you have a big enough started then you shouldn't need extra oxygen in your wort.

The Maltose Falcons link is excellent. Just the kind of info we need. I will make changes in how I do things from now on. I have been making my starters with a filtered pure O2 shot and a breathable stopper on an erlynmeyer flask on a stirplate. I usually dump the whole thing into my wort. After reading the article, it seems that letting the starter complete its activity and decanting off the liquid portion would be more efficient. I'll cut back my 3 minute wort oxygenation to 1.5 minutes.

I use O2 with the Williams Brewing kit. I run it for about 60 seconds.

Cheesefood said:

This contradicts a lot of other experts. Without any credentials on this guy, I have no reason to trust him.

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I've read similar articles from other sources - the info seems credible. I use pure O2, but I'm always careful to run it for a minute or less to avoid the pitfalls mentioned in the article.

If you go all-grain and full boil, you're getting rid of a lot of oxygen in the wort. It needs to be replaced, and you can't count on just surface exposure being totally sufficient. All it does it makes conditions more favorable for healthy yeast cells with healthy cell walls.

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But the Maltose Falcons article states that yeast only produce ethanol under anaerobic conditions, meaning that you DON'T want O2 in the wort (assuming that you have made a big enough starter).

Reading that article really made me go for buying a stir plate rather than an O2 tank.

Never have, can't say I never will because ya just never know. I made a 1.070 this weekend which started active bubbles at just under 5 hours so I haven't seen a need yet. Of course if it doesn't finish where I want it to be I could change my mind.

I use a wine degasser to oxegenate my wort. Fantastic tool that will last forever. Plus it is the best tool for whirlpooling my wort.

Fenster said:

But the Maltose Falcons article states that yeast only produce ethanol under anaerobic conditions, meaning that you DON'T want O2 in the wort (assuming that you have made a big enough starter).

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You don't think the O2 saturation stays wherever you get it right? The whole point is to put them into aerobic mode to multiply and energy store for the long haul ferment process. They use up the o2 relatively quickly and then start eating.

I do agree, if you don't mind making starters (I do, it's a PIA), you add the O2 then and pitch a huge colony in to a O2 devoid wort.

GaryA said:

Never have, can't say I never will because ya just never know. I made a 1.070 this weekend which started active bubbles at just under 5 hours so I haven't seen a need yet. Of course if it doesn't finish where I want it to be I could change my mind.

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Fast starts is basically an indication that you either pitched huge colony (cell count) or you didn't have enough oxygen. IOW, the yeast that you did pitch went anaerobic rather quickly. You just hope they have enough health to get to your desired FG.

I am currently looking into O2 options, but have not been using it. After working at a brewpub, I've seen the importance of it. In between the chiller and the fermenter, we inject the brews with food grade O2 for about 10-15 minutes. Its one of several important factors for consistently hitting our FG...

Bobby_M said:

if you don't mind making starters (I do, it's a PIA), you add the O2 then and pitch a huge colony in to a O2 devoid wort.

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If you think making starters is a PITA, how can you stand brewing? I go from "hey, I'll make a starter" to "hey, I made a starter" in all of about 15 minutes. The only part of brewing that's any easier is watching a kettle boil.


TL

Bobby_M said:

Fast starts is basically an indication that you either pitched huge colony (cell count) or you didn't have enough oxygen. IOW, the yeast that you did pitch went anaerobic rather quickly. You just hope they have enough health to get to your desired FG.

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Damn it now I have learned something today, and that always hurts.

TexLaw said:

If you think making starters is a PITA, how can you stand brewing? I go from "hey, I'll make a starter" to "hey, I made a starter" in all of about 15 minutes. The only part of brewing that's any easier is watching a kettle boil.


TL

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Not really. If you compare pitching dry yeast to making a starter, its easy to see which is more work. It's not really the work so much as needing to plan and anticipate your brews. Sometimes I can do that and other times I'm brewing 5 minutes after I decide I'd like to. I brew all grain and have no stock of DME sitting around. I guess I just need to get over it mentally and it won't seem like a big deal. Just haven't need to given the fact that I'm happy with S-05, S-04 and Nottingham.

Rudeboy said:

Right but besides being ready a day before and saving a few minutes on the brew day does it make better beer? ie. more consistent results?

Rudeboy

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I'd say you pretty much hit the nail on the head with your comment.

In answer to your questions, I'd say no to both as along as you aerate by some method. ie shaking, splashing or aquariun pump.

jpuf said:

I'm no expert, but could it be that by oxygenating the wort, it's possible to over oxygenate? Leaving O2 behind when the yeast no longer need it? I dunno, I'm getting a headache. BTW, I do oxygenate my big stuff.

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Yes it is possible to oxidize your wort by the over use of oxygen. And virtually impossible to do so by aeration. But it is probably an overblown concern.

If pure O2 is used just keep it under 1 minute and you should be OK.

There is a difference between oxygenation and aeration. The first uses pure O2 the second uses air.