Racking To Secondary Question
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nebben
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Yes. As long as primary fermentation is done, then yes.
That's typically the purpose of a secondary.
Definitely not.....
The only accurate "sign of fermentation" will tell you what is happening is your hydrometer reading. "Airlock bubbling" that is NOT a trustworthy thing to go by.
Whether it's in a conical, a bucket, or a carboy, it's the same thing. An airlock is a VENT, a VALVE to release excess co2, nothing more.
If it's not bubbling it just means that there no excess co2 to be vented out.
A beer may ferment perfectly fine without a single blip in the airlock. Or can stop bubbling when the yeast STILL has a lot of work to do.
That's why you need to take a gravity reading to know how your fermentation is going, NOT go by airlocks. The most important tool you can use is a hydrometer. It's the only way you will truly know when your beer is ready...airlock bubbles and other things are faulty.
The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....
Thinking about "doing anything" like repitching, or bottling, or racking, without first taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on?
Fermentation is thought to have finished when the gravity has not changed for 2 readings over three consequitive days.
You open the bucket of course 
....you beer's not that weak that you can't do something that is recommended by every book, website, etc.
This is what I use, and it works with both buckets and carboys. I replaced the plastic one a year ago with an extra long stainless baster from a kitchen ware store and it is awesome. But the plastic one from any grocery store works fine.
And
Here's what I do....
1) With a spray bottle filled with starsan I spray the lid of my bucket, or the mouth of the carboy, including the bung. Then I spray my turkey baster inside and out with sanitize (or dunking it in a container of sanitizer).
2) Open fermenter.
3) Draw Sample
4) fill sample jar (usualy 2-3 turky baster draws
5)Spray bung or lid with sanitizer again
6) Close lid or bung
6) take reading
It is less than 30 seconds from the time the lid is removed until it is closed again.
Probably less if you have help. And unless a bird flies in your place and lets go with some poop, you should be okay.
....you beer's not that weak that you can't do something that is recommended by every book, website, etc. This is what I use, and it works with both buckets and carboys. I replaced the plastic one a year ago with an extra long stainless baster from a kitchen ware store and it is awesome. But the plastic one from any grocery store works fine.
And
Here's what I do....
1) With a spray bottle filled with starsan I spray the lid of my bucket, or the mouth of the carboy, including the bung. Then I spray my turkey baster inside and out with sanitize (or dunking it in a container of sanitizer).
2) Open fermenter.
3) Draw Sample
4) fill sample jar (usualy 2-3 turky baster draws
5)Spray bung or lid with sanitizer again
6) Close lid or bung
6) take reading
It is less than 30 seconds from the time the lid is removed until it is closed again.
Probably less if you have help. And unless a bird flies in your place and lets go with some poop, you should be okay.
you have to open it and steal a sample. some folks use a special tool called a wine thief. Some people use a simple turkey baster.
edit: me personally.... i just wait a couple of weeks and get on with it. No gravity readings.
you have to open it and steal a sample. some folks use a special tool called a wine thief. Some people use a simple turkey baster.
edit: me personally.... i just wait a couple of weeks and get on with it. No gravity readings.
Yep... On the rare times I do use a secondary I wait 14 days before racking, and don't take one till bottlign day...and obviously on the majority of times I opt for the month long primary, I also wait til bottling day...SO I only take 2 one before yeastpitch and one on bottling day...
is there an advantage of leaving the beer in the fermenter longer than 2 weeks of the gravity has stabilized?
1 week in primary, 1 week in secondary is my plan. I'll take readings on each of the last 3 days of week 2. If its stabilized I'll bottle it. (14 days since the boil)
I've seen talk of longer fermentation times. If the gravity has stabilized, and it seems that is should be, why leave it in there longer?
1 week in primary, 1 week in secondary is my plan. I'll take readings on each of the last 3 days of week 2. If its stabilized I'll bottle it. (14 days since the boil)
I've seen talk of longer fermentation times. If the gravity has stabilized, and it seems that is should be, why leave it in there longer?
Because we feel it makes our beers taste better...
Where fermentation is concerned, If you arbitrarily move your beer, like to follow the silly 1-2-3 rule, you will often interrupt fermentation. Because sometimes the yeast won't even begin to ferment your beer until 72 hours after yeast pitch, so if you rush the beer off the yeast on day 7 then you are only allowing the yeast a few days to work.
You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.
Actually taking it off the yeast too soon prevents some much needed cleanup (and the true secondary fermentation period) from happenning. That's why many of us have opted for LONG primary/No secondary. Instead of rushing the beer off the yeast cake before the job is done. The yeast are very tenacious creatures, and if we actually leave them the heck alone, and not move them too soon, they will actually clean up after themselves, and remove their own waste/by products of fermentation, and actually will lead to cleaner, clearer and fresher tasting beers.
Moving it during fermentation more often than not has led to stuck fermentations.....And off flavors.
That old way of thinking that the yeast is the enemy has gone the way of the dinosaurs. Back when yeast was crappy, and may have come in hot cargo holds of ships, and sat on store shelves for an indeterminant length of time. Now with modern, healthy yeast we put it to work for us..."vomit" or "Autolysis" yeast is pretty much a myth for todays homebrewer.
Even in subsequent editions of How to Brew, John Palmer has changed his tune.
Rather than re-invent the wheel here, on a topic that there is more than enough info, and every question you could dream of already answered (mostly by me in the last 3 years) read this instead...
You can read about that here, and have all your questions answered about that as well. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/
Bottom line, we leave our beers alone, some of us for a month, it let's the beer ferment and the yeast clean up after itself. Many of us have found a remarkable improvement on our beers since we "entered the 21st century."
This isn't a race, brewing and making great beer is a game of patiences... At the minimum my beers take 8 weeks from grain to glass....
Where fermentation is concerned, If you arbitrarily move your beer, like to follow the silly 1-2-3 rule, you will often interrupt fermentation. Because sometimes the yeast won't even begin to ferment your beer until 72 hours after yeast pitch, so if you rush the beer off the yeast on day 7 then you are only allowing the yeast a few days to work.
You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.
Actually taking it off the yeast too soon prevents some much needed cleanup (and the true secondary fermentation period) from happenning. That's why many of us have opted for LONG primary/No secondary. Instead of rushing the beer off the yeast cake before the job is done. The yeast are very tenacious creatures, and if we actually leave them the heck alone, and not move them too soon, they will actually clean up after themselves, and remove their own waste/by products of fermentation, and actually will lead to cleaner, clearer and fresher tasting beers.
Moving it during fermentation more often than not has led to stuck fermentations.....And off flavors.
That old way of thinking that the yeast is the enemy has gone the way of the dinosaurs. Back when yeast was crappy, and may have come in hot cargo holds of ships, and sat on store shelves for an indeterminant length of time. Now with modern, healthy yeast we put it to work for us..."vomit" or "Autolysis" yeast is pretty much a myth for todays homebrewer.
Even in subsequent editions of How to Brew, John Palmer has changed his tune.
Rather than re-invent the wheel here, on a topic that there is more than enough info, and every question you could dream of already answered (mostly by me in the last 3 years) read this instead...
You can read about that here, and have all your questions answered about that as well. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/
Bottom line, we leave our beers alone, some of us for a month, it let's the beer ferment and the yeast clean up after itself. Many of us have found a remarkable improvement on our beers since we "entered the 21st century."
This isn't a race, brewing and making great beer is a game of patiences... At the minimum my beers take 8 weeks from grain to glass....
I'm sure this is why 70% of these conversations take place.
You have newbies, some who take the time to read up on things in 2 purchased books, and lots of web time, note taking, checklist making, etc. Still not doing things the way you guys currently are.
This is why I ask questions. I see/hear/read multiple different things and am just looking for a clear cut way of getting started. This isnt rocket science. Far from it. Its a hobby that seems to be getting mired in outdated opinions.
You have newbies, some who take the time to read up on things in 2 purchased books, and lots of web time, note taking, checklist making, etc. Still not doing things the way you guys currently are.
This is why I ask questions. I see/hear/read multiple different things and am just looking for a clear cut way of getting started. This isnt rocket science. Far from it. Its a hobby that seems to be getting mired in outdated opinions.
It's not false info, It's simply Older information based on an outmoded fear of yeast and autolysis, being replaced by new ideas.
That idea has been dying over the last 4 years or so, driven by our experiences here. It's an outdated opinion, based on old fears about yeast contact. Yeast WAS pretty crappy back in the day...it may have caused off flavors, but that's a lot different than now....
I still believe that POSSIBLY autolysis WAS a concern to homebrewers 20-30 years ago, when the yeast came in dry cakes, of dubious heritage and came across from where homebrewing was legalized in the hot cargo holds of ships and may have sat for months in terrible conditioned...In other words was unhealthy to begin with.
And therefore may have crapped out and made for nastiness, (and also was prone to stick fermentation as well.) and tales of it just continued to perpetuate over time, even though yeasts are much more healthy and fresh, and more is understood about them nowaday....people gravitate to the negative and fear and still perpetuate those worries...over and over and over....
One thing to remember is that Papazian, as wonderful as it is, was written 30 years ago...and a lot of "science" or "common wisdom" that he as an author tapped into has evolved....all authors face this issue with their work.
Charlie Papazian said it But he might not necessarily say it now....see the difference?
His basic info is timeless....how to brew beer, figure out recipes, etc...but some of the info is just a reflection of the "opinions," or prevailing wisdom of the times, and may not even reflect his current beliefs...There's a podcast with Papazian from a year or so ago, where he talks about just having started using rice hulls in his mash ton...so if he doesn't update the book again, or write a new one, unless you've heard the podcast or read it on here, you won't KNOW about it.
.A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.
John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.
Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.
So it's not really conflicting, like so much of brewing you will find people believing and practicing things they read in books, while others are brewing based on information that is more current. This is an ever evolving hobby, and information and ideas change. And now with places like this with a huuge amount of dedicated and serious brewers, as well as all the podcasts online, you will find the most state of the art brewing info.
This is where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found...
So. As of last night my first batch is in the primary.
What do you recommend I do with it?
You mentioned reinventing the wheel, the lack of need to do so. I couldnt agree more.
How long should I leave it in there before taking my first hydrometer reading? 2 weeks? A month?
Its an irish red ale.
What do you recommend I do with it?
You mentioned reinventing the wheel, the lack of need to do so. I couldnt agree more.
How long should I leave it in there before taking my first hydrometer reading? 2 weeks? A month?
Its an irish red ale.
Me, I would leave it for a month and bottle....there's no reason to rack to secondary for a "normal" beer. And to me anything less that a month in primary is not enough...
I find that what helps impatience is to brew more beer. Get another bucket and start another batch.
I dont have a patience problem. I just dont want to mess things up. I'm great at following directions. Problem is, in all my research I found old directions in the form of brand new books. (new on shelves anyway)
Now I have $65 in carboys I dont need... Grrr....
Minimally a month you say. Is longer than a month even better?
Now I have $65 in carboys I dont need... Grrr....
Minimally a month you say. Is longer than a month even better?
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Why don't you need them? Plenty of people still use carboys...
In my opinion, no. I can't think of any reason to leave a beer in primary longer than about three weeks, assuming I've been at the Fg for a while, and I'm happy with the clarity. After three weeks, I bottle.
Apfelweins, meads, ciders, wines, 4 gallon batches of beer. And "special" beers that need to be bulkaged in a secondary (like the 5 year barleywine I am brewing on Sunday, which will sit for at least 6 months in a glass carboy till bottling) or beers you are adding fruit or oak to, or the pumpkin beer you are brewing eventually, you will have so much pumpkin gunk in your primary, that you will WANT to rack to a secondary (or even a tertiary) in.
You'll find plenty of uses for them over time.
Six_O_Turbo
Well-Known Member
You can use a carboy for a fermenter too.
I still use secondaries (actually brite tanks) to clarify beer after 1.5 to 2 weeks of fermentation for most recipes. I transfer, then bottle after 3 to 7 days crash cooling. My beers have virtually always turned out tasting great and crystal clear. Both methods work fine.
I still use secondaries (actually brite tanks) to clarify beer after 1.5 to 2 weeks of fermentation for most recipes. I transfer, then bottle after 3 to 7 days crash cooling. My beers have virtually always turned out tasting great and crystal clear. Both methods work fine.
I've done some of my 2.5 gallon test batches in my 5 gallon glass carboy.
That's something you really can't control...The 3 weeks at 70 degrees, that that we recommend is the minimum time it takes for average gravity beers to carbonate and condition. Higher grav beers take longer.
Stouts and porters have taken me between 6 and 8 weeks to carb up..I have a 1.090 Belgian strong that took three months to carb up.
Temp and gravity are the two factors that contribute to the time it takes to carb beer. But if a beer's not ready yet, or seems low carbed, and you added the right amount of sugar to it, then it's not stalled, it's just not time yet.
Everything you need to know about carbing and conditioning, can be found here Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the word, "patience."
If a beer isn't carbed by "x number of weeks" you just have to give them ore time. If you added your sugar, then the beer will carb up eventually, it's really a foolroof process. All beers will carb up eventually. A lot of new brewers think they have to "troubleshoot" a bottling issue, when there really is none, the beer knows how to carb itself. In fact if you run beersmiths carbing calculator, some lower grav beers don't even require additional sugar to reach their minimum level of carbonation. Just time.
sounds good.
I'll do 3 weeks at 70 then move them to the fridge.
I'll try one 2 days later and see what its like. If I feel it should be more carbed I'll wait another week and try again..... Lather rinse repeat.
I'll do 3 weeks at 70 then move them to the fridge.
I'll try one 2 days later and see what its like. If I feel it should be more carbed I'll wait another week and try again..... Lather rinse repeat.
Wellshooter
Well-Known Member
Use it for a secondary or brite tank to free up your primary for another batch. I do 2 weeks in primary then 2 weeks in secondary then keg or bottle. That way I don't have to wait a month between brew sessions, and every two weeks I have a new beer coming out of the 'brewery'.
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I still secondary for dry-hopping. Dry-hopping directly in the primary doesn't seem to work very well for me. I always end up with way more sludge in the bottles when I dry hop directly in the primary.
I've not had the same issue as brother Az when dry hopping in primary. I just carefully rack, and even then very little ends up in the bottling bucket either.
right now I dont even know what dry hopping is...
I am (and will be for a while) in the land of extract kits with no frills.
Just good generic home brewing.
I will want to be more experimental and try some advanced things later. Hopefully (and it sounds like it) I can use the extra gear I have then.
I am (and will be for a while) in the land of extract kits with no frills.
Just good generic home brewing.
I will want to be more experimental and try some advanced things later. Hopefully (and it sounds like it) I can use the extra gear I have then.
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I know; it's strange, but it's the only variable that I've been able to isolate. It only bothers me when I end up bottling in liter bottles, because the 2nd and 3rd pour is a slimy, sludgy mess.
How long do you dry hop Rev? I usually do for 7 days.
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You basically add more hops once fermentation is done. It really helps with aroma for hop heavy beers like IPAs.
7-14 days....
It might be because of how I rack the beer. I hold my auto siphon initially so the the tip is actually several inches above the trub layer and let it flow for several minutes before carefully and slowly lowering it onto the bottom of the bucket or carboy, so I'm not starting initially with the hop goop flowing through in the beginning. When the volume gets lower you can kinda judge what's flowing through, if you are getting a lot of hops or not.
I DH between 7 and 14 days depending on when I can get to the beer. But usually somewhere between 7 and 10...
you have to open it and steal a sample. some folks use a special tool called a wine thief. Some people use a simple turkey baster.
edit: me personally.... i just wait a couple of weeks and get on with it. No gravity readings.
I think I may have to do the latter. First time I checked a gravity reading on my cleared out apfelwein, I tried the hydrometer sample. Tasted -good-. Now it's been a fight to keep from going down to 'take a hydrometer reading', and emptying the sample into a glass
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Same thing I do, but my theory (completely unsubstantiated
) is that the dry hopped pellets don't completely settle out and they somehow grab up some of the free yeast and thus create much more trub when I bottle. 
