Star San and Dog bowls

Well lets get a little personal

I own a dog daycare
I have been having trouble with sanitation
I soak the bowls and wash the toys and tennis balls in bleach every other day.
I bought special kennel cleaner to spray on the floor and the tools we use, garbgage cans, fencing, etc.

The kennel cleaner is very expensive.

Despite the intense amount of cleaning we do here, we still occasionally have problems with dogs getting ill, coughs, diarrehea, etc. Nothing serious, but I wonder if there is a better cheaper way to keep things clean.

Bleach and the kennel cleaner require extra rinsing and the kennel cleaner specifically require me to take all the dogs outside while it drys, as the vapors are dangerous.

Star San? Is it possible that it is as strong as the kennel cleaner and being no rinse, that is is completly harmless?

*main ingredient kennel cleaner: Didecyl Dimethyl Ammonium Chloride, Dimethyl Benzyl Ammonium Chloride

*main ingredient Star San: Dodecylebenzenesulfonic Acid, Phosphoric Acid

I certainly understand this is maybe a question best ansewred by Star San themselves, but I know many of you on this site are engineers and lab assistants, etc. Is it possible someone knows what those diff main ingredients do and can tell me if Star San is strong enough to be a safe, no rinse cleanser on the concrete floor and brick walls and dog bowls and toys, etc? Star San is muuuuuuch cheaper than the kennel cleaner...

Thanks if anyone knows anything.

I certainly would not rely on anyone but the manufacturer to answer this question. God forbid, something happened. You would be liable and I am sure your conscience would torment you.

jackson_d said:

tell me if Star San is strong enough to be a safe, no rinse cleanser on the concrete floor and brick walls and dog bowls and toys, etc?

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I'm not sure if this help you out or much but I remember from the Brewstrong podcast on sanitation the Five-Star representative saying something about how star-san isn't very effective on porous surfaces (i.e. the concrete and brick you mention).

I hear your pain on this, I work in the animal care field (Zookeeper) and sanitation and cleanliness is paramount. We pretty much use bleach on everything. Other products which you can look into that we use on various things, including concrete floors, and which are also animal safe in the proper dilutions, are 'Rival' and 'One-Stroke'.

Hope this helps you out a bit.

cellardoor said:

Other products which you can look into that we use on various things, including concrete floors, and which are also animal safe in the proper dilutions, are 'Rival' and 'One-Stroke'.

Hope this helps you out a bit.

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Cool, thanks. I have been using a product called '256'. I buy it from Petedge.com. Its Lemon 256 or Spearmint 256 or Orange 256, whatever the smell of it may be. But i know it is super strong stuff, but it burns my nostrils when properly diluted until it has dried.. Bleach smells clean, but kind of nasty too. I will look into the Rival and One Stroke. Thanks...

Wouldnt your co workers be happy to know that Star San is just as effective as the others and probably much cheaper? I have a feeling its a stretch, but its possible that it works just as good as industrial sanitizers, eh?

I am a graduate student in organic chemistry, but let me say that this is certainly not my area of expertise.

The ingredients you list for the kennel cleaner are quaternary ammonium salts, which are the active ingredients commonly found in disinfectants such as Lysol and other similar products.

Star San, however, is a sanitizer, not a disinfectant. Sanitizers are designed to reduce the population of microorganisms to a level that is considered safe from a public health standpoint. According to Five Star's tech sheet, Star San is intended for sanitizing non-porous surfaces in dairy and food-use applications, and would be ineffective on porous surfaces such as concrete and brick.

Also, from a legal standpoint, Five Star cannot endorse the use of Star San for anything other than the uses that appear on the label. IMO, you should stick with products intended for kennel cleaning, if for no other reason than to protect yourself from legal action.

I found a website that has some information you might find helpful:
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/BRM/disinfectants.htm

Hope this helps,

ISUBrew79

IIRC when I worked at a vet clinic (kennel help 10 years ago...) we used bleach for some surfaces, nolvasan for others. The scent I remember wasn't unpleasant. Keep in mind that my face was VERY close to many of the surfaces I was cleaning and we dealt with some very sick (parvo, etc) dogs.

Nolvasan Disinfectant, 1 Gallon

Stated dilution (I remember gallons lasting forever) is 1-3 oz per gallon, it's $60 for a gallon so it'd end up cheaper than star san.

Good luck!

Do not use Star San for cleaning anything in your facility. Your concerns are far different than what the makers of Star San made the product for. You should be concerned with preventing the spread of viruses (Parvo, Distemper, Corona, and Parainfluenza), bacteria (Bordetella, Campylobacter, Klebsiella, etc.), and parasites (Giardia, round worms, hook worms, and whip worms). I highly doubt that Star San has been tested against any of those organisms. You need a cleaner that has good efficacy against viruses and Bordetella since these things are typically the bane of any boarding/daycare facility. You should really be looking at using Rocal or Parvosol at the correct dilution (on the bottle) and use it DAILY. You need the be cleaning everything DAILY!!!!! Every other day is not good enough. You also have to make sure that all the surfaces are SCRUBBED DAILY to get rid of any organic matter that will prevent a cleaner/disinfectant from working properly. I have been practicing veterinary medicine for some time now and I have dealt with these problems at my own facilities as well as others. All it takes is one outbreak of kennel cough to get people pissed off at you and not return...or...show up with veterinary bills for you to pay because the pet got sick at your facility. (Do you make sure everyone is current on vaccines and isolate any suspect animals?) God forbid you get a dog with distemper (yes it still happens) because that is tough to clear with any certainty from a kennel. Lastly as a safety issue (you probably know this, but I will say it anyways), do not mix the quaternary ammonium cleaners with bleach (this includes rinsing with bleach after the cleaner) as you will liberate chlorine gas...bad for your health. I know it sucks, but spend the money on GOOD cleaners and disinfectants and you won't go wrong. Being cheap WILL cost you in the long run. I hope this helps.

Drbobcat

Thank you and yes everything is legit. I am a licensed animal care facility by the City of Chicago and the State of Illinois, I get inspected by both agencies twice a year and have had suprise inspections by the City as well. Pass every time. I was mostly intrested in using the Star San on the stainless steel water bowls. I had a feeling it wouldnt be good enuff on the floor. i hate using the bleach on the bowls. But we soak them everyday in it and soak the tennis balls too. I just hate using the bleach. The kennel cleaner is very strong and was recommended to me by the vet in town that I deal with. i use that everyother day, it stinks.

I have had bordatella go around although i require vaccinations for it be presented first. I do not pay vet bills, its not my fault. if your kid goes to grade school and comes home with a cough, you do not bring the doctor bill to the grade school and look to get reimbursed. sucks but it happens. people get pissed but good for them.

just was hoping that the Star San in a spray bottle might work on dog bowls and tennis balls but too good to be true i guess

I assume you're requiring dogs be vaccinated for kennel cough, distemper, etc before they stay with you?

Jackson, I never meant to imply that you were not a legitimate business or didn't operate a good facility. All I wanted to do was let you know what I had found to work after years of practicing in the field.
As far as the bleach fumes, what dilution are you using? Typically if you use a dilution in the neighborhood of 1:32 you will still get excellent bacteriocidal and virucidal activity if you soak the balls and bowls for any length of time. The easy formula is 1/2 cup bleach to 1 gallon of water. Even at 1 cup bleach per gallon of water, the fumes shouldn't be too bad.

I agree a lot with what DrBobCat said. Brewing infections are different than bodily infections. With animals you are dealing with parasites, viruses, molds and bacteria that are designed to overcome different obstacles than seen with brewing. Some pathogens are able to survive stomach acid which has a much lower pH compared to StarSan. Pathogens like Salmonella, E. coli, Shigella, etc. are able to survive stomach acid and cause enteritis. It's bad enough cleaning up dog crap but it's even worse when they have explosive diarrhea.

Sawdustguy said:

I certainly would not rely on anyone but the manufacturer to answer this question. God forbid, something happened. You would be liable and I am sure your conscience would torment you.

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you can always explain that you got your information from a very reliable bunch of drunks that you know.

If you are having horrible fumes from the bleach you're using it at too strong of a dilution. 1:32 is what we use at the zoo if animals are present. It has that bleachy clean smell but not overpowering at all. We are allowed to go as strong as 1:5 if animals are not present and the area is rinsed completely and allowed to air out afterwords before animals are given access again.

I forgot to recommend Nolvasan as well. We use that instead of bleach for most things that need soaking. Dilution is one ounce per gallon and a soak time of at least 15 minutes.

Rival is one ounce per gallon. We use that in all our footbaths that go from a non-animal area to an animal area. We also use it once a week to scrub all the floors instead of using bleach like every other day.

One-Stroke is one ounce per TWO gallons and it's some heavy duty stuff. We only use is for animals in quarantine.

Hope this helps out a bit. I know it would be awesome if star-san could be used but It wasn't designed to kill the type of bugs that dogs carry. Don't skimp on cleaning because being proactive about germs is 10x easier than having to go back, pinpoint, eradicate, and deal with an infection

Wow, as a pet owner (charming beast at left <--), I find this conversation very enlightening, as it indicates how serious animal care can be, when done properly.

Would some of these specific cleaning procedures be applicable to the home, occasionally?

beergears said:

Would some of these specific cleaning procedures be applicable to the home, occasionally?

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I would say sure you could adopt these type of cleaning procedures at home. There is nothing wring with being as clean as possible. The difference between your home and places like the vet, or doggy daycare is there is a great likelihood of transmission of disease if not kept very clean. You home probably doesn't have a dozen different dogs from all environments running through it on a daily basis so the chance of your dog picking up something at home is much less likely. At doggie daycare, where dogs may be snout to snout, share a water bowl, roll in god knows what, if one dog is carrying some sort of pathogen there is a high probability of them passing it to other dogs if not kept clean and disinfected on a daily basis or even more other than that if there is a known problem animal around. That is why things such as kennel cough are so prominent.

So while it wouldn't hurt to be this clean at home there isn't nearly as much as a need as there is at a place where multiple dogs come in and out. I would recommend a weekly bleach soaking of the food bowl, water bowl and toys to kill the nasties that they pick up from the environment.

aspetcare.com

youtube.com/allstarpetcare

yelp.com/biz/all-star-pet-care-chicago

see for yourselves, the site is a little buster but the pics and the info is good

you cannot be licensed in IL or chicago unless you have a file cabinet full of vaccination records and emergency contacts for eveyone who walks in the front door. i also am required to have cleansers and disinfectants in the cleaning closet. concrete floors, no sharp corners, 1 employee on the clock for every 5 dogs that enter the facility, etc. IL and Chi aren't playing around with the issuing of Animal Care Facility licenses anymore. 2 years ago they made a change which requires i have vacc paperwork indicating clean stool samples. Many out of town calls i get, recently Denver and Atlanta, dog daycares in those states do not require the stool sample info.

i use 1/2 cup to 1 gal, so whatever dilution ration that is. but the sink is 10 feet away from the front desk, it smells.. the kennel cleaner we use on the floor is worse...

it is interesting to me that Star San is some amazing super duper sanitizer for homebrewers, and you can put it in a spray bottle and spray down a primary and let it sit for 30 sec to a minute, and its good enuff for brewing.. but it apparently is not sufficient enuff to spray down a dog water bowl and be expected to kill off the bad guys..

as far as procedures similar to this type of cleanliness in the home, it cant hurt to soak the bowls in bleach a few times a month, maybe especially after you come home from the dog park. but as stated before, unless you have a bunch of dogs in and out of your home, it prob isnt necessary

another intresting thing is how all the dogs are vacc against bordatella. i am aware that the vacc is only 50% effective. but its intresting that the dogs that get it are dogs that have had it in the past. its like their immune system is prone do it, despite vacc. i have had healthy puppies not have any trouble, and in the same group 5 year old labs who have had it before get it again. then the owners get pissed and never come back but screw em becuase there are like 1 million dogs in chicago and i clean good and require paperwork.

stupid dogs. one nice thing for sure working with them- they never talk back and are always happy to see me.. it does sucks when they **** on the floor though

Just curious, but where did you hear that the vaccine is only 50% effective? Also there are multiple organisms that can produce Kennel Cough.