How does water hardness effect mash efficiency?

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ImperialStout

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Last brew recipe had target OG of 1.065 but measured 1.050. LHBS put recipe in the Hopville calculator and adjusted the mash efficiency until the OG was the same as the measured OG. Came up with 51%.

LHBS didn't see anything wrong with the mash process but the water here is hard, I think. We usually have white crud form around the faucets. He thought softening the water should improve the mash efficiency.

Two questions: How does water condition effect mash efficiency? Don't really know anything about hardness, pH, acid, base etc.

Bought an HTH water testing kit that measures chlorine, bromine, pH, alkalinity, hardness and cyanuric acid. Which of these water conditions are important for increasing mash efficiency? Are home test kits reliable enough for brewing or would it be best to have the water dept test the water?
 
I would be interested in alkalinity. Hard water is usually also alkaline. If you mash pH is way off, that could be your problem.

"Softening" as in using a water softener isn't a good idea. You can pre-boil your water to soften it, or I soften my water with lime, but it's kind of a pain and requires some specialized equipment.
 
I would say you're better of diluting it with distilled water, or any soft bottle water.
 
OK, I don't understand. If boiling water softens it then why does it not soften when the wort is boiled?

Softening water by adding bottled drinking water - Is bottled drinking water usually soft water, or at least around neutral? If so, problem solved. Can get bottled drinking water for $1 gal.

What happens if water is too soft?
 
Read the water section in "How to Brew" -- lots of good information (some of which has since been debunked, but there's plenty of accurate things in there).

Once you learn about water from that source, search the forums for "EZ water calculator 3.0". It's an excellent spreadsheet which will help you adjust your water.

I have very hard water, and those two sources taught me a lot of useful info.
 
mojo_wire, thanks for the lead on water. Was your mash efficiency low with hard water and did it improve with softer water?
 
OK, I don't understand. If boiling water softens it then why does it not soften when the wort is boiled?

Softening water by adding bottled drinking water - Is bottled drinking water usually soft water, or at least around neutral? If so, problem solved. Can get bottled drinking water for $1 gal.

What happens if water is too soft?

Read this re: softening via boiling http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5792.0

It only works with water with high temporary hardness. If your water is permanently hard, you're out of luck without dilution. To know if your water is permanently hard or temporarily hard, you'll need to know the total hardness and alkalinity of your water.

If you have high Ca+ and Mg+ your water is hard. If you have more Cl- and SO4- than HCO3-, then your water is permanently hard. If you have lots of HCO3- and little Cl- and SO4- then your water is temporarily hard.
 
I am no water guru, but I would say "poo poo" to hard water being poor for a mash (exteme cases aside). I would think your crush, your MT lauter method etc. are more to fault than water. I ahve super hard water and routinely get 75-78% efficiency using a corona mill and a Blichmann MT for 11G batches.

You can always get your water report, but I would start with the other stuff first. My water PH is 7.6 and I can dig up the report if needed. My water style is closest to teh dublin style.

SEE post 39 for my water report profile
 
Mash method - Put 8 pounds grain in a bag in a 5 gal Igloo cooler. Filled cooler with 160 F water (maybe 3 gal), covered and let sit for 1 hr, then drained into brew pot. When water got low added more 160 F water. Used 6 gal of sparge water in total. Let water flow out of cooler slowly so it took 20 min or so to drain 6 gal. Also moved bag up and down while draining to increase efficiency. LHBS said method was OK but maybe not. Open to all suggestions from mashing process to water condition. One thing is for sure, the mash efficiency needs to come up. Batch size is 5 gal. LHBS crushed the grains so can't comment on that. This is my first PM and learning curve is steep.

My guess is either the water condition, not sparging long enough or with enough water caused low efficieny, but hard to see how sparging with more than 6 gal for a 5 gal batch would be good. Would 7 gal be OK? Would there be 2 gal loss from grain absorption, dead space and boil down? Assume it is better to get efficiency high even if after losses and boiling there is 5.5 gal wort in pot. Better to toss 1/2 gal of wort than have low efficiency.
 
Mash method - Put 8 pounds grain in a bag in a 5 gal Igloo cooler. Filled cooler with 160 F water, covered and let sit for 1 hr, then drained into brew pot. When water got low added more 160 F water. Used 6 gal of sparge water in total. Let water flow out of cooler slowly so it took 20 min or so to drain 6 gal. LHBS said method was good but maybe not. Open to all suggestions from mashing process to water condition. One thing is for sure, the mash efficiency needs to come up.

What is your crush size? LHBS mill or did you mill it at home?

Do you use a bazooka, a braid, etc. for your MT?

EDIT: didn't see you were biabing it.

I would think your:
1. crush may not be fine enough
2. your MT filtering solution might not be adequate. i.e. not enough braided hose surface area etc.
3. did you make sure there weren't doughballs in your BIAB bag?

I would also recc you try batch sparging instead.


You need to get the water temp of the mash, not the water going into the mash. Do you have that?
 
The strike water temp was 160ºF? That seems quite low. At what temp did the mash land?

Make sure to stir the mash after adding (batch) sparge liquor.
 
What is your crush size? LHBS mill or did you mill it at home?

Do you use a bazooka, a braid, etc. for your MT?

EDIT: didn't see you were biabing it.

I would think your:
1. crush may not be fine enough
2. your MT filtering solution might not be adequate. i.e. not enough braided hose surface area etc.
3. did you make sure there weren't doughballs in your BIAB bag?

I would also recc you try batch sparging instead.

You need to get the water temp of the mash, not the water going into the mash. Do you have that?

LHBS milled the grain and don't know what the crush size was. The filter in the MT was the paint strainer bag from the depot, no braid or manifold. How would I know if there were dough balls in the bag in the mash tun. I am not BIAG, just put grain in the bag and put it in the MT. After lautering into the brew pot added 2 pounds 8 ounces of DME into the wort, stirring so the DME did not clump up. There was no sediment in the pot after wort was transferred to the primary bucket so don't think the DME clumped and went to the bottom.

I sparged by covering the grain in the HT for an hour, then drained. When water got to top of grail, filled up cooler MT to the top and repeated process until 6 gal went through MT. Is that batch sparging or fly sparging?

The mash temp was 150F but added boiling water and brought mash temp to 155F. Had heated MT before adding grain and sparge water (160F) but still lost 10 degrees.

Hope this help you see where I screwed up.
 
That was my thought as well. Unless the grain bill was TINY

The grains were in a bag so moved the bag up and down in the cooler as stirring was not an option. Had 8 pounds grain in a 5 gal cooler. Not familiar with some brewing terms. What does it mean if the grain bill was tiny? I'm thinking a small amount of grain. Besides hops, recipe has 8 pounds grain and 2 pounds 8 ounces DME for a 5 gal batch. Am told a 5 gal Igloo drink cooler will mash 12 pounds grain in a bag, correct?
 
We are in rural Maine and have well water, if that makes a difference. No chlorine or other added chemicals, just have no idea what is in the water. It is a drilled well about 400 feet down so surface water does not effect water quality.
 
A severely out of range ph can effect conversion to some extent, but in general water chemistry has more to do with flavor than efficiency.

LHBS milled the grain and don't know what the crush size was. The filter in the MT was the paint strainer bag from the depot, no braid or manifold. How would I know if there were dough balls in the bag in the mash tun. I am not BIAG, just put grain in the bag and put it in the MT. After lautering into the brew pot added 2 pounds 8 ounces of DME into the wort, stirring so the DME did not clump up. There was no sediment in the pot after wort was transferred to the primary bucket so don't think the DME clumped and went to the bottom.


Hope this help you see where I screwed up.

The main thing that jumps out to me is that you never truly doughed in. The grains need to be stirred when added to the water, vigorously and for several minutes. They also need to be stirred again after sparge water additions. By simply placing the grain bag in the water you essentially had one giant dough ball, and the grains in the center of the bag could have been completely dry for most or all of the mash.


I am not BIAG, just put grain in the bag and put it in the MT.

I assume you mean BIAB (brew in a bag), but if your grains are inside a bag for the mash, that's pretty much the definition of BIAB.

The grains were in a bag so moved the bag up and down in the cooler as stirring was not an option.

If stirring is not an option, you need to seriously rethink your process. You're not supposed to tie the bag shut when doing BIAB, the bag just acts as a filter. The grains need to be doughed in regardless of the type of filter you use to separate the wort from the grains. What you're describing sounds more like the process used for doing extract brews where small amounts of specialty grain are steeped to add flavor. In that situation, the grains are only expected to add flavor, not any significant amount of fermentables. It's also done with much smaller amounts of grain, so the risk of a doughball forming in the center of the bag is much lower, and less of an issue if it does happen. As you've discovered, this process does not work well for partial mash or all grain brewing.

What does it mean if the grain bill was tiny?

He was saying that a strike temp of 160F sounded very low, and the only explanation for this that would make sense is if there were only a few #'s of grain, which would not absorb as much heat.

The mash temp was 150F but added boiling water and brought mash temp to 155F. Had heated MT before adding grain and sparge water (160F) but still lost 10 degrees.

This confirms the previous posters thought that your strike temp was too low. You never doughed in and therefore the temps never equalized throughout the mash tun at the start of the mash, so really you don't even know what your mash temp was. Had you stirred the grains and doughed in properly, you would have seen that the strike water cooled even more than 10F when mixed with 8# of room temp grains.

I sparged by covering the grain in the HT for an hour, then drained. When water got to top of grail, filled up cooler MT to the top and repeated process until 6 gal went through MT. Is that batch sparging or fly sparging?

Sounds kinda like a hybrid fly sparge from your descriptions. If you mean you covered the grains in the mash tun full of water and let it sit for an hour, that's called the mash, not the sparge. Sparging is rinsing the residual sugars off of the grains after the mash is over. Batch sparging is draining the wort from the mash, adding all of the sparge water in a single addition, stirring, vorlaufing, and then draining (quickly). If you split the sparge water into two additions, it's called double batch sparging. Fly sparging is where you very slowly let the wort trickle out of the mash tun while slowly sprinkling the sparge water on the top of the grain bed at the same slow rate the wort is flowing out.

Hope this is helpful.
 
+1 to jaunmoore's response - sorry I was late on this. Looks like we have several key things that could be done better, that directly relate to poor efficiency problems. No sweat though, now you know so you can fix them next time around ;)
 
Thanks Juan,

Think I see the errors. Never heard the term "doughed in" before. Thought with all the grain covered in water all of it would be soaking but can see how that might not happen. Also read about placing drain manifold an inch or so from cooler edge so water does not just run down the side, between cooler wall and mash. Am concerned this might also be a factor in low efficiency, but then again stirring should eliminate that. Do you think a drain manifold is needed if a bag is used? Was told no as bag is filter instead of manifold but always good to get multiple opinions. Am new to brewing and think I am mixing steps from different methods and coming up short. Will keep bag open and stir next batch.

Think 170F is a good starting temp to get a mash temp of 155F? Sounds like I double batch sparge, and thanks for explaining mash, fly and batch sparging.

When the second batch of water is added should the mash sit for a period of time, or just fill and empty? What is "vorlaufing"? Can usually guess from context but this has me stumped.
 
Also read about placing drain manifold an inch or so from cooler edge so water does not just run down the side, between cooler wall and mash. Am concerned this might also be a factor in low efficiency, but then again stirring should eliminate that.

What you're referring to is called "channeling", and is really only an issue for fly sparging. As long as you keep with the batch sparge process and stir the sparge additions well, it won't have any effect on efficiency.

Do you think a drain manifold is needed if a bag is used? Was told no as bag is filter instead of manifold but always good to get multiple opinions.

In most cases the bag should work fine without anything else, but a manifold or diptube can help reduce/eliminate deadspace if you have any. Deadspace is the volume of wort that gets left behind (usually below the drain level). When I used a cooler mash tun I simply tilted the cooler after the sparge to collect as much of the wort as I could.

Think 170F is a good starting temp to get a mash temp of 155F?

Depends on several factors, such as the target mash temp, size of the grain bill, mash thickness (water to grain ratio), temp of grains, and if/how well the mash tun gets pre-heated. In general, using a preheated mash-tun, the strike water will need to be 10-15F hotter than the target mash temp. There are programs out there that can help you determine strike temp (beersmith, brewtarget, ect), but even they can't account for small differences in process and equipment. After a few batches you'll start to get a better handle on what you need to do to hit your desired mash temp.

When the second batch of water is added should the mash sit for a period of time, or just fill and empty?

When batch sparging, the grains need to be stirred thoroughly after adding each sparge water addition to dissolve the sugars into solution. Some people let it sit for 5-10 min after stirring to let the grain bed "set", and some don't wait at all, so the choice is yours. (FWIW I don't wait)

What is "vorlaufing"? Can usually guess from context but this has me stumped.

Vorlaufing is clarifying the wort by ricirculating it through the grain bed. The simplest method is to drain off some wort into a pitcher, and then slowly and carefully pour it back into the mash tun. As long as it remains undisturbed, the grain bed will act as a filter and screen out the small particles that made it through your bag or manifold. A small tupperware lid or piece of tinfoil on top of the grain bed can be useful for spreading the flow to minimize grain bed disturbance. You'll notice that the first runnings out of the mash tun will be very cloudy, so just vorlauf until it runs clear (anywhere from a couple qts to a couple gal), and then start draining into the boil kettle.

I know it's a lot to take in, but keep brewing, keep hanging out here, and keep asking questions. You'll get a process down that works well for you before you know it.
 
ImperialStout said:
The grains were in a bag so moved the bag up and down in the cooler as stirring was not an option. Had 8 pounds grain in a 5 gal cooler. Not familiar with some brewing terms. What does it mean if the grain bill was tiny? I'm thinking a small amount of grain. Besides hops, recipe has 8 pounds grain and 2 pounds 8 ounces DME for a 5 gal batch. Am told a 5 gal Igloo drink cooler will mash 12 pounds grain in a bag, correct?

How big is your grain bag? The bag should be the same size as your cooler. Think of it as a cooler liner as opposed to a grain bag. The grain should float freely in the mash water and you should be able to stir it. Stirring vigorously for up to five minutes will dramatically improve your efficiency.
 
I think for an all grain brewer one of the simplest things that will save your sanity will be using a brew program like brewsmith, etc. I use it. Basically you plug in your recipe details and it spits out a strike temp for you. I think this is the best way for you to get your bearings.
 
I think for an all grain brewer one of the simplest things that will save your sanity will be using a brew program like brewsmith, etc. I use it. Basically you plug in your recipe details and it spits out a strike temp for you. I think this is the best way for you to get your bearings.

Good point. Some of the programs (like brewtarget) are even free. Like I said earlier they're not perfect, but if you input the info properly they'll usually get you pretty darn close. IMO for those just starting out all grain brewing, Beersmith is worth every penny of the $20 or however much it costs now.
 
Hey, not sure if anyone is still looking at this, but if so a couple of things:
1. NEVER EVER use chemically ionized softened water to brew with. The idea in this is that Ca2+ (and to a lesser degree Mg2+) is replaced with Na+, or sodium, at a level that is unsuitable for brewing. under 150ppm or so is ok, but this will be way over that. You shouldn't even drink this water on a normal basis, and it will ruin your mash profile.

2. Hardness and Alkalinity are important to the mash because of the enzymatic reactions that take place DURING THE MASH. by the time you boil, these reactions have or have not already taken place, so its not a factor. Take a pH reading of your water, take a pH reading of your MASH after it settles, and you'll notice that it has dropped significantly. The enzymes and processes of the Mash will buffer the wort to around 5.4 or so,+/- .2 If not, you have an alkalinity problem, and should either have it tested and add salts or acids as such, or add distilled water to your mash water to lower the overall alkalinity and hardness. The other option is to just buy water from the grocery store, always in a moderate range good for brewing. you can usually even get a water report on it fairly easily.

If you're really curious about this and don't want to spend the money on testing, you can always do small 1l batches of mash, adding a bit more distilled water each time to your strike water, and check the pH until you get into that golden range.

Also, just a note, if you have city water, not a well, make sure to use a carbon filter somewhere in the line if using for mash water, Chloride/chlorine will affect your mash negatively as well. also, do not use 100% distilled water to mash with either, the water must have trace amounts of ions in it for enzymatic actions and yeast nutrient. You can however make/buy distilled water and build your own water from scratch if you are trying to mimic a certain area, ie. Burton on Trent for ales or Munich for lagers.

Hope this helps.

Scott :mug:
 

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