RIMS for Dummies

pickles said:

My point is that your not going to raise your wort temp by 20F on the way to the BK through a RIMS vessel. It takes about an hour to run off your final volume. I can see how it would be beneficial if your moving a large volume of water in a short amount of time.

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As I am configured you are correct.

My point is that my RIM's heater is basically self cleaning as configured.

"IF", after the mash was complete, I reconfigured my RIM's to be between the MLT and the BK, at fly sparge volumes, I could have the wort exiting the RIMs tube boiling. But again, not the way I'm using it.

This is just in response to a post from earlier today asking how a RIM's heater can be used.

pickles said:

My point is that your not going to raise your wort temp by 20F on the way to the BK through a RIMS vessel. It takes about an hour to run off your final volume. I can see how it would be beneficial if your moving a large volume of water in a short amount of time.

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Why cant I raise my wort temp 20F through a RIMS? I am not understanding the thinking here, what is the problem? I can raise it 20-30 easily on the way to the BK

I'm not questioning the ability of a RIMs to heat the wort 20F or more (i have a 4500W element in mine). At the very slow rate that I fly sparge at I wouldn't run the wort through the RIMS for the hour or so that its going to take to fill the boil kettle. It would be boiled away before it got there! I was simply saying that it would work great as a supplemental heater for those that transfer faster (like willynilly @ 4 gpm).

Ohio-Ed; I realize your current setup works fine but it's not what the others were referring to.

I dont transfer at 4gpm, and your wort wont boil away if you have a temp control on the RIMS, it will only heat it to 180F if that is where it is set. No boiling necessary

Even if I transfer at .5gpm, it will still only heat to 180F

willynilly said:

Ditto, I can get a 20F increase in the RIMS at full flow (4gpm), by the time the kettle is full, the boil is a few degrees away.

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This is what I originally responded to.

pickles said:

This is what I originally responded to.

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Right, but you assumed that I meant during the sparge, which I didnt.

All I said was that I can get a 20F increase at 4gpm. I didnt say that I sparged at 4gpm.

At 4gpm I can get a 20F rise across the RIMS, at lauter flow rates it can get me to the edge of a boil (based on the temp. setting)

I have never seen a lautering device that can give 4gpm without sticking, regardless of method.

I still think our way is best I don't take an hour to fly sparge, more like 1/2, but i have never timed it so i don't know for sure. I use pbw to clean and circulate it during my boil, and then flush with water when i am done. So basically we are arguing over who wants to spend more time on brew day? and i think we just saved an hour.

thought i'd throw this in to the pot for people building a RIMS system. i originally had a 304 SS bushing for the heating element. all the high watt 240V elements fit into it fine. i then bought a 2000W 120V element to go in it, which of course didn't even come close to screwing in.

i tried using my 1" NPT tap on the SS bushing (manually with a vise and 12" wrench), which just wasn't gonna happen. so i bought an aluminum 1.5" to 1" bushing off mcmaster, which was extremely easy to run the tap through to get the element to completely screw in.

so for anyone having element difficulties, go with an aluminum bushing and just thread it deeper.

p.d.

paledragon said:

thought i'd throw this in to the pot for people building a RIMS system. i originally had a 304 SS bushing for the heating element. all the high watt 240V elements fit into it fine. i then bought a 2000W 120V element to go in it, which of course didn't even come close to screwing in.

i tried using my 1" NPT tap on the SS bushing (manually with a vise and 12" wrench), which just wasn't gonna happen. so i bought an aluminum 1.5" to 1" bushing off mcmaster, which was extremely easy to run the tap through to get the element to completely screw in.

so for anyone having element difficulties, go with an aluminum bushing and just thread it deeper.

p.d.

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I used a 1" half coupling from More Beer which worked perfectly. I had it welded on the kettle, which is more expensive, but I have never had any problems with my element leaking and I can tighten it down tight without fear of leaks.

QUESTION

What settings are people running their PID's at to maintain temps with a 5500 Watt element. My auto tune is not working right because of my PID's fuzzy logic which does not adjust quickly enough to maintain temp without overshoot.

Thanks to all those who reply to this one!

Anybody? This is the last part holding me up.

Chosenwon said:

Anybody? This is the last part holding me up.

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If autotune isn't sufficient, you'll need to manually tune the P I D parameters. Unfortunately, there isn't "one" set of parameters since it depends on flow rate, wattage, sensor placements, etc. It's a trial and error process.

My recommendation is to run the autotune program, place an accurate thermometer at the outlet, and then manually adjust the parameters until the outlet temperature doesn't overshoot the target and doesn't take too long to recover.

Have any of you had trouble with your final gravity when switching over to rims? I have finally nailed down the system and am able to maintain a stable temp but I am consistently getting a higher final gravity than anticipated.

My last brew, I was between 150-152 the whole mash and it has gone from 1070 to 1020, I was shooting for 1014. I haven't had this trouble until I have been mashing in a keg and using RIMs.

Is it possible that the wort is getting too hot going through the RIMs chamber and stopping conversion?

humann_brewing said:

Is it possible that the wort is getting too hot going through the RIMs chamber and stopping conversion?

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Sounds more like it's effectively mashing at a higher temperature, though the temperature of the actual mash may not be higher, when it goes through the RIMS, maybe that activates the enzymes that work at higher temps leaving you with less fermentable sugars and lower attenuation.

how much flow do you allow to go through? I have a 1/2 ball valve controlling the flow. I wonder if I just leave it wide open the wort won't be in the chamber long enough to scorch.

I run RIMS. I don't think it's a "scorch issue". I suspect that it's a temperature gradient issue. (cuz I'm dealing with this too)

ie: depends on where you are measuring your mash temp from.

Having a full false bottom in my keggle, I can run my recirculation wide open without stuck mash probs, (tho I don't) but poking a thermocouple around the mash at different levels I find different temps.

I have not spent enough time yet playing with my new system to resolve this temp gradient, but I know that I need to insulate my system better. Too much heat loss out the sides, bottom and plumbing. Right now my heater output is about 4 degrees higher than my heater input. That means the top of my grain bed is 156 while the bottom is 152-ish.

Duffer said:

I run RIMS. I don't think it's a "scorch issue". I suspect that it's a temperature gradient issue. (cuz I'm dealing with this too)

ie: depends on where you are measuring your mash temp from.

Having a full false bottom in my keggle, I can run my recirculation wide open without stuck mash probs, (tho I don't) but poking a thermocouple around the mash at different levels I find different temps.

I have not spent enough time yet playing with my new system to resolve this temp gradient, but I know that I need to insulate my system better. Too much heat loss out the sides, bottom and plumbing. Right now my heater output is about 4 degrees higher than my heater input. That means the top of my grain bed is 156 while the bottom is 152-ish.

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that sounds logical. I just finished my insulation of the keg following Bobbys "fireproof" design so hopefully that helps out.

After reading through most of this thread many times, I have some basic questions. Of course I now own nearly every piece mentions in the very first post, awaiting a free evening for construction and testing. I get the basic diagram and think I can manage not to kill myself, but here goes:
will 12 gauge wire suffice?
Can anyone recommend switch wiring advice for a pump and the PID/element?

@kcinpdx

I built a 1500W eRims system. Im very pleased with it.

A 1500W element at 120V draws 12.5 Amps. It's close, but most residential 120V lines are installed with 14 AWG on a 15A breaker. I used a section of bulk cord 14A stranded rated for 15A and insulated for 120V. It does not get warm even at PID 100% duty cycle.

Cheers!

--- that should read "14AWG stranded"... where did the edit feature go??

Oh, and 12AWG wire will be fine, if not better than 14AWG.

kcinpdx said:

After reading through most of this thread many times, I have some basic questions. Of course I now own nearly every piece mentions in the very first post, awaiting a free evening for construction and testing. I get the basic diagram and think I can manage not to kill myself, but here goes:
will 12 gauge wire suffice?
Can anyone recommend switch wiring advice for a pump and the PID/element?

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What is the wattage of the element you plan to use? That will determine the gauge of wire to use.

1500W from Lowe's - whirlpool I believe. Unfortunately there are zero markings on it so I cannot determine if it is HD or LD.

Use 12, if you determine that 1500 does not do it then it makes it simple to upgrade to 2000 watt element, which is what I am using on a 20amp/12 wire set up.

How would you wire it if you didn't want the heater to come on unless the pump was also running?

Ian

Wire the PID output through the pump switch, so when the pump is off, it over rides the heating element's relay.

I just ordered one of Derrin's RIMS tubes, and I'm sourcing the rest of the parts. I've read this entire thread, twice, and still have a couple of questions:

Would you suggest a 240V 5500 or so watt element at 110V, as opposed to trying to locate a 1500W 120V element? Is there any discernible difference, other than availability?

Would a 25A SSR be adequate for the above mentioned elements, or would a 40A be required. I know the 40A runs cooler, but is the amperage rating adequate on the 25A?

Is using the alarm output on the PID the easiest fix for insuring the element is not dry-fired, or is there a better way through hard-wiring?

Anyway, thanks for the great thread, and thanks in advance for any help/advice.

Plumbingsupplies.com has 1500 watt low density elements.

A 25 amp sir will work fine.

The alarm will work. I also use a flow switch to protect the RIMS.

Reelale said:

I just ordered one of Derrin's RIMS tubes, and I'm sourcing the rest of the parts. I've read this entire thread, twice, and still have a couple of questions:

Would you suggest a 240V 5500 or so watt element at 110V, as opposed to trying to locate a 1500W 120V element? Is there any discernible difference, other than availability?

Would a 25A SSR be adequate for the above mentioned elements, or would a 40A be required. I know the 40A runs cooler, but is the amperage rating adequate on the 25A?

Is using the alarm output on the PID the easiest fix for insuring the element is not dry-fired, or is there a better way through hard-wiring?

Anyway, thanks for the great thread, and thanks in advance for any help/advice.

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I really wonder about using the PID alarm. Here is the problem as I see it... you are relying on the PID temp probe to set the alarm when the temp gets to high, but if the RIMs tube empties what will the probe read? I understand that it "should" work if the element boils the tube empty and generates steam, but I'm not sure it will really work??

I like SawDustGuy's idea of using a flow switch. It is gonna rely on fluid movement which I think is a better indicator.

Sawdustguy said:

Plumbingsupplies.com has 1500 watt low density elements.

The alarm will work. I also use a flow switch to protect the RIMS.

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My local Lowes has 4500W 240V for a lot less, when you include shipping. I know that it would only be around 1125 watts when on 120V, but would that be a show stopper? Wouldn't that wattage work to hold mash temps?

Ohio-Ed said:

I really wonder about using the PID alarm. Here is the problem as I see it... you are relying on the PID temp probe to set the alarm when the temp gets to high, but if the RIMs tube empties what will the probe read? I understand that it "should" work if the element boils the tube empty and generates steam, but I'm not sure it will really work??

I like SawDustGuy's idea of using a flow switch. It is gonna rely on fluid movement which I think is a better indicator.

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I thought CodeRage recommended a low setting for the alarm to account for no wort flow? I may have completely misunderstood. I don't remember seeing anything on a flow switch. Any more information on that? Oh one more question I just thought of, can I use the built-in relay on the PID for running a March pump? Or would I even want to. I was just thinking it would make for easier wiring at the control. Thanks for the info.

My local home depot has 1500W 120v elements for under $10.

Ohio-Ed said:

I really wonder about using the PID alarm. Here is the problem as I see it... you are relying on the PID temp probe to set the alarm when the temp gets to high, but if the RIMs tube empties what will the probe read? I understand that it "should" work if the element boils the tube empty and generates steam, but I'm not sure it will really work??

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If the tube empties it's gonna get real hot in that tube real fast. The temperature probe will read that and and as soon as the temperature goes above the alarm setting the PID relay will open therefore breaking the connection from the PID to the SSR. That will turn off the element. I am from the better safe than sorry school so I use both the alarm relay and flow switch.

ScottSA said:

My local home depot has 1500W 120v elements for under $10.

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I just found out mine does also but you have to make sure they are low density.

Sawdustguy said:

If the tube empties it's gonna get real hot in that tube real fast. The temperature probe will read that and and as soon as the temperature goes above the alarm setting the PID relay will open therefore breaking the connection from the PID to the SSR. That will turn off the element. I am from the better safe than sorry school so I use both the alarm relay and flow switch.

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Well, I agree the element is gonna get really hot really quick, but I don't know if the air in the tube would transfer the temp to the probe quick enough to save the element?

I agree if you got it you might as well use it... just not sure I would depend on it to do the job.

Ohio-Ed said:

Well, I agree the element is gonna get really hot really quick, but I don't know if the air in the tube would transfer the temp to the probe quick enough to save the element?

I agree if you got it you might as well use it... just not sure I would depend on it to do the job.

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That's my concern as well. What is the fail-safe, other than making sure you have flow?

Reelale said:

That's my concern as well. What is the fail-safe, other than making sure you have flow?

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I tested mine as if I had a stuck mash by closing the valve and completely stopped the flow...
I use a BCS460 and the control, caught the temp before it reached 170f. (It spiked about 10f above the setpoint) That is out of the box setup (I can't take credit fur tuning), I'm not sure an Auber PID would do the same, the other thing is that my tube is 2" in diameter so it has a fairly large volume to "dampen" the temp spike.

What I haven't tested is what happens if the tube drains... say a hose breaks???

I think you HAVE to make sure that the tube will not empty from a siphon or something... my input is lower than the output and both are well below the level of the mash in the mash tun.

A flow switch on the output of the rims should work... But most I have seen don't seem to be rated very well for particulates in the flow... so, I don't know??? I don't have one, but I'm interested to see how it works out. (I know SawDustGuy has a flow switch, but I don't know the specs on his or if he has tested it with wort)

You can see the spikes in this graph where I closed the valve, then the temp leveled off to setpoint (157), then where I opened the valve back up. (The setpoint was 130 the first time I closed the valve)

I'm very interested in the flow switch design. It looks like your's behaved well, if I am reading the graph right. Never did exceed 170F. That's good, no?

Reelale said:

I'm very interested in the flow switch design. It looks like your's behaved well, if I am reading the graph right. Never did exceed 170F. That's good, no?

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Yes, I am very happy with the way it behaved. The fear was that it would almost immediately boil the wort in the tube, turn it to steam and empty the tube which would expose the element to a dry fire.

I'm very much hoping that a PID will react the same. If it does, I can live with that, along with a visual check of wort flow. I still would like to see a design/wiring for a flow switch

i know this is the RIMS for Dummies thread, so its okay to ask this...

Whats the difference between HD and LD elements? is there a way i can tell by looking other than it saying so?

HD, LD and ELD (extra low density, I think) are the choices.
What it relates to is the surface area of the element that the heat is generated through... so basically how hot each square inch of surface becomes.

A larger element with the same watt rating is going to be a lower watt density.

So without a label, or another element to compare, I don't know anyway you can tell by looking. If you are looking at a local store, you might be able to find more info available for the element on-line.