Planning the switch to electric: few questions

I know there is a lot of information out there and I have tried to read as much as possible as I can as I have formulated my plan to convert my current keggle (serves as both HLT and boil kettle) into an electric kettle.

I am currently renting and will be for the foreseeable future so I have decided to go with the spa panel approach since I will be able to take it with me. My basement has an older 3 prong dryer on a non-GFCI 30A breaker. My plan is to run 10/3 soow from the dryer outlet to the spa panel to put my brewing operation under GFCI protection. From there, I'm still deciding on what kind of controller to use (its going to be simple) to control the element. I'm going to be buying the 5500W element kit from the electric brewery.

Can anyone see any fatal flaws in my plan to plug my spa panel into the existing dryer outlet and then plug in the controller/element into an outlet I will put in the panel as many others have.

As far as the pump goes, I'm not worried about that because I have an outdoor GFCI plug that is part of the townhouse for that.

Thanks for taking the time to tell me this won't work or it sounds reasonable.

Your plan is solid so long as you only run 240v - don't try to dual run 120/240 as you need a 4 wire dryer plug to safely / properly do that.

Thanks for the reply. So if I have read correctly I will have a H + H + N coming from my dryer outlet to the panel and I'd just install a 3 prong plug post-breaker using only those three instead of adding the 4th wire like in the spa panel wiring for dummies thread?

You kinda need a ground. Otherwise the spa panel won't do it's job and you will die. Did you have a plan on how the control panel and spa panel would get grounded if you're only running 10/3 from the dryer outlet? You might want to double check what is coming out of the dryer to see whether you're missing the ground or the neutral. Missing ground can kill you. Missing neutral will make the Electric Brewery control panel not work.

I don't know if your PIDS can work on 240 volts. I think mine do. However, your pumps will have to be connected to a 120 volts outlet somewhere else if you can't have a neutral wire in your dryer outlet. But you got a fix for that. That's about the only problem I see with having only H H GND in the outlet.

Also, your main relay will need to have a 240 volts coil. Check for that as some of them are 120volts.

If you have any questions on the wiring, PM me it will be a pleasure to help you out !

Cheers !


Black

BadNewsBrewery said:

Your plan is solid so long as you only run 240v - don't try to dual run 120/240 as you need a 4 wire dryer plug to safely / properly do that.

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Sorry but your statement is not accurate. Clothes dryers set up with a 3 prong (3 wire) power cord are being supplied with the 240V hot legs and neutral. The dryer contains both 240V and 120V devices within it. When the dryer is setup the neutral line is additionally bonded to the dryer frame to provide equipment ground.

The use of the spa panel provides a method to supply GFCI protected power to the brewery.

No problem.

I'm just trying to figure out how to GFCI protect a 240v line to power the element. I will not be buying a control panel, just the element kit. My pump is plugging into a separate outlet that I have on my patio already. I guess I'll either just stick with propane and hope the association doesn't have a fit or drop 200 bucks or so on an industrial 30A 240v GFCI extension cord and plug my element into that.

Thanks for the replies all, I really appreciate the help.

Edit: To further illustrate what I'm trying to do, here is a picture of the "rig" I built before I moved and had to put brewing on hold. I took an old AV cart (the kind that teachers used to push overhead projectors on back before schools got all this fancy technology), cut a hole in it for my burner since I was set up for propane. This cart conveniently has a cord and outlets that will plug into an outdoor 120v 15A GFCI outlet on my patio that will protect anything I plug into it (namely my chugger pump and any possible controller to control power to the element).

P-J said:

Sorry but your statement is not accurate. Clothes dryers set up with a 3 prong (3 wire) power cord are being supplied with the 240V hot legs and neutral. The dryer contains both 240V and 120V devices within it. When the dryer is setup the neutral line is additionally bonded to the dryer frame to provide equipment ground.

The use of the spa panel provides a method to supply GFCI protected power to the brewery.

No problem.

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My point is that he COULD do it, but the safest / current code method would be to have a dedicated ground which would require a 4 wire setup. There are plenty of ways to make it work, but wouldn't the safest / 'proper-est' way to do it require a dedicated ground and not a shared ground/neutral?

TheBrewinator said:

Thanks for the reply. So if I have read correctly I will have a H + H + N coming from my dryer outlet to the panel and I'd just install a 3 prong plug post-breaker using only those three instead of adding the 4th wire like in the spa panel wiring for dummies thread?

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You are supposed to have 4 wires running to the SPA panel - H + H + N + G.

But you can install the panel with just H + H + N and everything past the panel will be protected. The N wire goes to the G input of the panel and the G output wires to the G of your power plug. This is the U shaped prong on on the plug. Nothing connects to the L shaped N prong of the power plug.

With all the 3 wire vs 4 wire, here is a simple question. Would something like this put in line from the dryer outlet to the element work?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inline-GFCI...542?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac918f396

OP, you will be fine with your plan.

GFCI protection DOES NOT REQUIRE A GROUND . . . . . period.

The device works by comparing current flow among the monitored lines.
If ~5mA comes up missing, it will trip.

Everyone is needlessly worrying about the grounds . . . . . .

Use your GFCI and test it monthly as is instructed; but rarely complied with.

'da Kid

Use the GFCI spa panel and wire it H-H-N in and H-H-N-G out, as has been well documented here. It's not an ideal solution, as you will not have an isolated ground, but it will work. It will also give you the ability to take it with you if you move, and rewire it with H-H-N-G in if you can. I would even use 10/3+ground in initially, so you already have the ground conductor available.

A better approach would be to have H-H-N-G from the breaker panel, but it sounds like you may be constrained to use the existing dryer outlet in your apartment.

Hey Brewinator,
If you have time and before we get to far along.
Please shut off power to the dryer recepticle, pull the cover and take a pic of the wiring.
We may get lucky and a small bare ground could be there. Even early 'romex' often had a small ground just under the cloth cover.

Just a thought,
'da Kid

Checked the wiring, there is definitely no hidden ground, its HHN (the townhouse was built and wired in 1975). I guess my next project will be figuring out how to go out of the spa panel to a simple controller (I'm thinking of using the simple PWM posted about on here quite a bit) then to the element. A control panel is not in the budget right now but I'd like to be able to control the element so I can do either 6 or 12 gallon batches and figured the simple PWM is the best way to go right now.

TheBrewinator said:

Checked the wiring, there is definitely no hidden ground, its HHN (the townhouse was built and wired in 1975). I guess my next project will be figuring out how to go out of the spa panel to a simple controller (I'm thinking of using the simple PWM posted about on here quite a bit) then to the element. A control panel is not in the budget right now but I'd like to be able to control the element so I can do either 6 or 12 gallon batches and figured the simple PWM is the best way to go right now.

Click to expand...

Just buy this SSVR Setup from Auber Instruments. For $30 you get the complete control device and it should be great in achieving what you are wanting to do.

P-J

Thanks for linking that P-J, seems exactly like the low tech solution I was looking for. Would you mind PMing me (since yours are turned off) as I have a specific question for you. If not, that is fine and thanks again for your advice.

P-J said:

Just buy this SSVR Setup from Auber Instruments. For $30 you get the complete control device and it should be great in achieving what you are wanting to do.

P-J

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So this alone is good enough to control the boil with say a 3500W element ? This is so much easier that what I have seen before ..as always - thx for the info, PJ

Yes it will, or buy one of these and attach the plug & socket you want.
http://www.gfcistore.com/30-amp-inline-gfcis.html

P/N PGFI-2301N is $136.00 - eBay is not always the best place to shop.

kappclark said:

So this alone is good enough to control the boil with say a 3500W element ? This is so much easier that what I have seen before ..as always - thx for the info, PJ

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Short answer: Yes. They also have a 40A unit if you need more power for a larger set up.

SO, with a few more parts, it is the same as this ?

Big savings ..

kappclark said:

SO, with a few more parts, it is the same as this ?

Big savings ..

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I checked your link and have no clew about their design. With that said, I have no idea how it is implemented or anything about its control capability..

If you chose to do it your way, please let us know about your outcome.

P-J said:

Sorry but your statement is not accurate. Clothes dryers set up with a 3 prong (3 wire) power cord are being supplied with the 240V hot legs and neutral. The dryer contains both 240V and 120V devices within it. When the dryer is setup the neutral line is additionally bonded to the dryer frame to provide equipment ground.

The use of the spa panel provides a method to supply GFCI protected power to the brewery.

No problem.

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In a single fault condition (i.e., disconnected neutral) there is a significant safety hazard. That's a problem in my book. I know it's been done for years, but it's still not good.

If the neutral is disconnected, all "grounded" parts become live. Grab the dryer, or kettle, and you provide a path to ground for the live wires.

For anyone building their electric system, do your best to have a truly grounded system (that does not rely on the neutral as the safety ground).

I should point out that P-J is right, the spa panel will protect you even without a ground. So, I'm splitting hairs I guess, but I've never liked the 3-wire 240V dryer. Super bad idea.

passedpawn said:

In a single fault condition (i.e., disconnected neutral) there is a significant safety hazard. That's a problem in my book. I know it's been done for years, but it's still not good.

If the neutral is disconnected, all "grounded" parts become live. Grab the dryer, or kettle, and you provide a path to ground for the live wires.

For anyone building their electric system, do your best to have a truly grounded system (that does not rely on the neutral as the safety ground).

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Ok. Thanks for your input. I hope everyone does it your way.

Good deal. No more hours invested in designing diagrams and providing advice for the members of this forum.

I'm done.

Thanks...!

P-J said:

Ok. Thanks for your input. I hope everyone does it your way.

Good deal. No more hours invested in designing diagrams and providing advice for the members of this forum.

I'm done.

Thanks...!

Click to expand...

You are not done. You've said that at least a dozen times, them come back.

P-J said:

Ok. Thanks for your input. I hope everyone does it your way.

Good deal. No more hours invested in designing diagrams and providing advice for the members of this forum.

I'm done.

Thanks...!

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P-J, RDWHAHB

P-J, as an electrician, I'm on board with your diagrams and work.
Bunch of folks with little practical electrical experience 'know code' and spew the way things must be done.

It's a code, not a law.

Use a GFCI for what it was designed to do . . . . . look for faults to ground.

P-J, I will be honest and let you know that your E-stop method originally made me uncomfortable. Has to be 'cause I've never seen it done that way. It makes perfect sense though. You get instant disruption of power AND test your GFCI.
Code states you have to follow the manufactures recommendation when installing a GFCI . . . . . including testing monthly. Violators, stand up . . . . . no wait, everyone sit back down.

Hang in there P-J, I tolerate them too.

'da Kid

I actually had a question about the E-stop. I decided I'm gonna buy a PID with SSR and use a temperature probe for my build right now since I'm going to need it for future expansions anyway. No sense in going cheap now to do a pot with that SSR only to have to upgrade to the PID later.

If I am going to essentially have my spa panel within arms reach during brew day where I can flip the breaker manually the case of emergency, is wiring in an E-stop really necessary?

Until you have a pump installed, I'd say it's up to you. I'd hate for a hose to come loose and have to take off running . . . .

If there is room in the small panel you're building, I'd put one in. You can always use/move it later.

As long as your GFCI is within 'line of sight', you're good.

'da Kid

I have a pump but I already have a separate outlet for it which is within arms reach so I was planning on my emergency for that being just yank the plug.

My only option right now is using that old 3 wire 240v 30A service I have in my basement through a spa panel. I know this is not the ideal setup, however my options are either quit brewing until we buy a house or go electric with what I have available and change it over to a true 4 wire service once I own my own place.

Is there a program that you guys use for these wiring diagrams, I plan on using the same setup as the E-BIAB setups posted on here, without the pump wired into the control box since I have it on a separate circuit and would like to draw out my wiring plans to see if I have any major flaws in it.

Thanks again to everyone who is helping out with all the questions I have.

P-J said:

Just buy this SSVR Setup from Auber Instruments. For $30 you get the complete control device and it should be great in achieving what you are wanting to do.

P-J

Click to expand...

Hi, P-J. Have you done any drawings using this SSVR? I'd like to do a simple setup with an on/off switch, a contactor, and an e-stop. I loved building your single vessel e-biab design. This SSVR setup would be for a friend's BK. Thanks.

Well, I went back and re-read all the threads on the use of the spa panel and it seems the general consensus of going form HHN to HHNG via the spa panel will work, however its not recommended since if a wire does come loose, I'm gonna fry.

I don't really feel like frying so I guess its time to hang up the mash paddle and sell off my hop and malt stash and decide if I'm gonna store the brewery for another couple years or just sell it off and buy a new set of irons.

Thanks again for all the advice on this topic, I really appreciate everyone's input and expertise, that is why I love this forum, lots of knowledge to be had.