time in primary - a uk professional brewer's technique

Hi all, I spent this morning talking to the owner of a 360 gallon brewery. I asked about time in primary. He waits until fermentation is underway, then removes 4 gallons and ferments this out at 27 deg C, to determine ACTUAL final gravity. The main brew is fermented at 18-20 deg C until it gets to 0.002 above the FG, it is then racked off the yeast into the chiller. So fermentation ON the yeast is 7 to 10 days only. I know that the perceived wisdom on this forum is to ferment out and leave on the yeast for 14 to 21 days. I myself ferment on yeast until I judge the end point for my bottling technique, this is usually only 4 to 6 days. The owner has agreed to taste some of my beers and critique them, I will share this with the forum in due course. Happy Brewing New year to everybody!

By the way, he pitches 10 kg of yeast sludge from previous brew into 360 gallons of wort, this is 6 oz per 6 gallons, I pitch 1 to 1.5 lbs, so I would appear to be over pitching.....

Bob your setting a bad example for the n00bs. Im sure a brewery has time constraints that home brewers don't have to worry about.


An interesting topic anyway.

Great info Bob! Mind naming the brewery? Maybe I'll know if their beer is any good.

This is similar to the "fast-ferment test" mentioned by Kai(ser).

I will ask if they mind me quoting them. I will also ask if time constraints eg maximising profitabilty is an issue. The brewery has won many awards such as best beer (I am not saying which type) in class in whole of UK. I personally would make the best beer I could, because there are 500 other breweries competing with you. Time would not be an issue.

Most commercial breweries turn out their beer really fast...gee, look at Budweiser they turn their beers over in what 14 days as well?

I can see several reasons why their beer would come out fast, repitching on highly active yeast for one thing...And they probably even filter before bottling right, and/or force carb as well?

So that negates the need for any long term clearing and/or bottle conditioning time as well...or they ship only in kegs..again reduced time frame...

And do they pasturize? Which kills the yeast...So the lifespan/timeframe again is NOT as necessary.

A lot of things that work for the commercial big boys don't translate well to the homebrewer...Remember they actually do have to worry about things like autolysis, hotside aeration, and oxydation, that are boogiemen to us, on a smaller scale, not trying to consistantly reproduce something on a commercial basis in a time frame that suits the marketplace not the tastebuds of the consumers.

So yes it's interesting information, but I agree with Wildwest, (especially at this time of year with so many n00bs watching) it does send a bad and or confusing example to them.

In the recent BYO, Stone said they also brew a small batch of the beer as a test. I think they raise the temp and put it on a stirplate for 2-3 days. Since actual flavor isn't a concern, they can fast ferment it this way to verify the potential FG of each batch.

wildwest450 said:

Bob your setting a bad example for the n00bs. Im sure a brewery has time constraints that home brewers don't have to worry about.


An interesting topic anyway.

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That is the biggest problem I see with the conventional wisdom surrounding homebrew. A lot of it comes from professional brewing, because that's where the money for research is, but professional brewers have a different goal than homebrewers. They need to make money, we need to make great beer. Moving beer out of the larger primary into conditioning tanks will allow more beer to flow through the pipeline, allowing for more revenue.

Homebrewers don't need to concern themselves with as much turnover as possible, so we should take the time to let the beer do its thing.

A lot of of commercial brewers I know are looking for a 5 - 7 day ferment. Some 3 - 4 days

They have an advantage. They know the exact process inside out and are doing much lager batches. They have a lot more experience.
You only need to look at my 8 day mild (drinking in 8 days!) to see what can be done.

BUT IT IS NOT FOR THE INEXPERIENCED unless they don't mind the chance of making crappy beer.

BarleyWater said:

That is the biggest problem I see with the conventional wisdom surrounding homebrew. A lot of it comes from professional brewing, because that's where the money for research is, but professional brewers have a different goal than homebrewers. They need to make money, we need to make great beer. Moving beer out of the larger primary into conditioning tanks will allow more beer to flow through the pipeline, allowing for more revenue.

Homebrewers don't need to concern themselves with as much turnover as possible, so we should take the time to let the beer do its thing.

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I'm going to quote you on this, my friend after you graduate from brewschool....Don't forget your roots!!!!!

:rockin:

I suspect we're speaking about low-gravity cask ales where really fresh yeast character is desired and relished. Yeast health is of monumental importance, as well. The vast majority of British ales are intended to be consumed quite young.

The Basic Brewing podcast from the 1st of year has some conversation about just this very topic, as well as typical British brewery techniques- including milling grain in the very same room where their open fermenters are, which flies in the face of conventional wisdom regarding the potential for Lactobacillus infections.

http://cdn4.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr01-01-09casey.mp3

flyangler18 said:

I suspect we're speaking about low-gravity cask ales where really fresh yeast character is desired and relished. Yeast health is of monumental importance, as well. The vast majority of British ales are intended to be consumed quite young.

The Basic Brewing podcast from the 1st of year has some conversation about just this very topic, as well as typical British brewery techniques- including milling grain in the very same room where their open fermenters are.

http://cdn4.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr01-01-09casey.mp3

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Yeah that was a really interesting episode.

It was an interesting OP that relates to homebrewed AG. This is not the beginner section, so I don't see why anyone should be concerned about newcomers seeing it.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

It was an interesting OP that relates to homebrewed AG. This is not the beginner section, so I don't see why anyone should be concerned about newcomers seeing it.

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Agreed, Gnomey! Obviously, not all styles lend themselves to such a short primary. My own mild went grain to glass in 10 days and it was exceptional. I'll be brewing it again very soon. In fact, I think I'll pack this in 5L mini-kegs and prime to style as a real ale.

Low-gravity, lightly hopped ales can most certainly be turned around like this with zero compromise in quality.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

It was an interesting OP that relates to homebrewed AG. This is not the beginner section, so I don't see why anyone should be concerned about newcomers seeing it.

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*whispers, and looks around* Because they're everywhere....

And sometimes when we tell them to wait they think we're taking their toys away from them...don't forget their instructions sheets often cover the same timeframe as this...so if they read this, and only having enough knowlege to be dangerous they get pissy when we suggest to hold off a bit...Remember flowerysong and I got troll threaded 2 days ago about this very same issue.

And I still remember the olive oil noob incident...


This is a great thread on this very subject...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/aging-beer-facts-myths-discussion-84005/

You can turn over certain beers faster...But yuri even says...if you don't keg, you can't get around the 3 weeks needed for most bottle conditioning for one thing...But the recomendations are pretty much the same, pitch a huge amount of yeast for one thing...Brew low to moderate strength beers for another.

I would add that sometimes, brewpubs push too had to go from grain to glass quickly, and end up compromising the beer. I specifically remember an IPA from The Rock brewpub in Lynnwood WA that was (to my palate) very green, and not aged enough to take the back-of-throat rawness out of the IPA.

I've also brewed 1.060 APA's that were drinkable at the three week mark after kegging and force-carbing, but the beer was much better at the six week mark.

I find myself saying this a lot, but it's true. Brewing is a CRAFT, and, as such, there is no one "right" way to do things. Every step of the process shows the mark of the craftsman's skill, effort, and experience. Ask three brewers how to do something, and you'll get five answers.

But the recomendations are pretty much the same, pitch a huge amount of yeast for one thing...Brew low to moderate strength beers for another.

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To reference again the BBR podcast I mentioned earlier, Casey spoke with some enthusiasm and disbelief that that the very robust house strains effectively outcompeted any beer-spoilage organisms from laying waste to the ales.

Can you imagine trying to mill grain and use open fermenters in the homebrewing environment and not be terrified of infection? I'd love to see the open fermenters first hand- belching and foaming away. Amazing what healthy yeast can do!

flyangler18 said:

To reference again the BBR podcast I mentioned earlier, Casey spoke with some enthusiasm and disbelief that that the very robust house strains effectively outcompeted any beer-spoilage organisms from laying waste to the ales.

Can you imagine trying to mill grain and use open fermenters in the homebrewing environment and not be terrified of infection? I'd love to see the open fermenters first hand- belching and foaming away. Amazing what healthy yeast can do!

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I know and the funny thing was when I was listenning I was grinding my grain in my living room a few feet away from my brew closet and my kitchen where I was shortly about to brew...

I was milling my grain downstairs in my garage but I had some problems, and needed to bring it upstairs and do it where I could stand up (I still don't have a strong enough drill that will grind 10+ pounds of grain without the battery dying) so I had to come upstairs, hook up the handle and finish it off by hand. SO with my back I had to but it on my dining room table to do so...all the while I'm listening and thinking "oh my god I shouldn't be doing this...."

We'll see if this batch ends up in my stupid mistake that came out allright thread.

Thanks everybody. This brewery only makes REAL ALE so no pasteurising and gassing etc. I say again, with 500 competitors, better to make really good beer whatever the time and expense. and they brewed best beer in country, last year.

BOBTHEukBREWER said:

and they brewed best beer in country, last year.

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And if they did this then I guess the proofs in the pudding.

Bob, would this brewery happen to be in Hampshire?

Revvy said:

And I still remember the olive oil noob incident...:eek

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Let's not even talk about that again, unless we want a whole other bunch of noobs squirting salad dressing into their beers.