Opinions on yeast and water profile for Biere de Garde?

I'm planning to brew an AG Biere de Garde from the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles. The book does mention what yeasts to use, but I cultured some yeast from the dregs of a bottle-conditioned commercial Biere de Garde - Cuvée des Jonquilles.

This is ideally going to be served at a French-themed dinner party in September, so I probably don't have time to brew a test batch. My question is, would you use the cultured yeast, or buy some instead?

Also, the book doesn't mention anything about water profiles. I have highly alkaline water (pH 8.0 and 172 ppm Bicarb) so I'll probably be either diluting or starting from scratch with RO/distilled. Anyone have any suggestions of what to shoot for?

I would not use the dregs unless i knew it was the same yeast they use to ferment as the one they use to carbonate. A lot of the time it is a different strain.

As far as the water goes i do not think it would hurt to cut your tap water with 50% RO, a few drops of acid and some 5.2 buffer. You should be good to go.

Reverend JC said:

I would not use the dregs unless i knew it was the same yeast they use to ferment as the one they use to carbonate. A lot of the time it is a different strain.

Click to expand...

Not sure why they'd bother. Seems like more work to me...

As far as the water goes i do not think it would hurt to cut your tap water with 50% RO, a few drops of acid and some 5.2 buffer. You should be good to go.

Click to expand...

I've had trouble before with a very harsh hops character from the bicarb, even though I adjusted the pH to ~6 with phosphoric acid. I didn't cut it 50% though, maybe that in addition to the acid would do it...

is there anyplace I should look, perhaps, for suggested water profiles for different beers? I don't see any french cities in Palmer's book...

other than a google search I am not sure where to look for french cities. And, yes, cutting the water will cut your bicarbs and take away that harshness you are getting from the hops. You know, on that beer, I would not be afraid to cut it with 75% RO. I typically will cut my czech pils with 90% but that then makes it super soft.

edit: I forgot to mention the reason they use a different yeast at bottling. It is so no one can steal the strain. Some breweries are very secretive about their yeast and want no one to have it, unless white labs or wyeast pays them for its use.

Sorry to resurrect the thread, but this is the only search result I can find for anybody culturing Cuvée des Jonquilles yeast up from a bottle. To the OP, did you ever end up using that yeast?

Not the OP, but I searched "jonquilles" because I just finished a batch with yeast cultured from this beer. It's still carbonating, but all the samples have been superb: fruity, floral, lightly tart and funky with a solid malty BdG base. Seems like it could crossover as a saison yeast. Without even trying the finished product yet, I can already say this might be the best beer I've made. The recipe I used was:

5 gallon batch

9 lbs Belgian Pilsner
.75 lbs Flaked Wheat
.75 lbs Golden Naked Oats
.5 lbs Belgian Aromatic Malt

20 min
.5 oz Crystal
.5 oz Tettnanger
.5 oz Santiam
10 min
.5 oz Crystal
.5 oz Tettnanger
.5 oz Santiam
5 min
Whirlfloc
0 min
1 oz Crystal
1 oz Tettnanger
1 oz Santiam

OG 1.051
FG 1.010

I mashed at 150 for an hour, pitched at 68 and slowly let it rise to 76 over two weeks and rest there for one more week. Total of 3 weeks in primary and 9 weeks in secondary. High perceived attenuation at ~80%. During fermentation I smelled some sulfur and a fair amount of candy/fruity Belgiany esters. Tons of awesome floral/fruity hop aroma. Unusually, this appears to be a top cropping yeast so I froze some of it and hope to make this my standard farmhouse yeast. The long lagering period plus the whirlfloc in the boil and isinglass in the secondary made for a fantastically clear and beautiful beer. I bottled one gallon with some Brett C to condition for a few months, and set one gallon aside to sour on one cup of First Blush Cabernet Savignon grape juice and the dregs from Crooked Stave's Surrette. I'll post again after a proper tasting, and I'll check back to see if anyone else ever revisits this thread.

Update. The regular version is just as good as suspected. The "funk" is a light mustiness which I have found elusive in other farmhouse strains. I like the aromatic malt but I think for a second attempt at a Biere de Garde I will boost it and/or add some supplementary specialty grains and adjuncts. I will probably also try this strain with an all pils/wheat grainbill for a Saison.

Hi Vehicle,

I tried Cuvee Des Jonquilles over the weekend and was blown away. What a great beer. I found your post and was curious if you brewed this recipe again? Have you found any other commercially available yeasts that compare?

Cheers

This is a very expressive strain, and the closest I've found to it is the Dupont saison strain available from both Wyeast and White Labs, although this didn't dry out as much. The difference is in the funk, CDJ strain produces an earthy, woodsy, musty basement funk in addition to some more traditional Belgian spice and a little less bright citrus and fruit than the Dupont. The White Labs French Ale yeast is very subdued by comparison, although it does make a nice malty beer with some subtle esters.

If you have a chance to get another bottle of the Cuvee it's well worth culturing. Just this summer I've rebrewed this as a saison with 9 pounds pils 1 pound wheat and it promises to be superb when it carbonates fully. The yeast woke up healthy from its long nap and fermented vigorously after a a big starter on the stir plate.

I picked up 3 bottles after reading your post. I'll brew a BdG in August or Sept. Depending on how the first batch goes, I have some WY3726 Farmhouse laying around that I might throw in with it.

Where are you finding these bottles in Denver?

I found some bottles at Argonaut, Colfax & Washington, and at Highlands Wine & Liquor, 38th and Tennyson. Might want to give Argonaut a call to see if there are ant still on the self. I didn't see any at Highlands on Sunday.

Hey Vehicle,

I cultured two bottles of CDJ and have been growing my starter for the last couple of weeks. I'll be brewing on Saturday. I'll keep the recipe simple to let the yeast be the dominant flavor.

Hey just came back to the site after awhile away and noticed this thread is alive again! To answer the previous question, yes I did use the yeast and it was one of the most-talked-about beers I've made in 5 years of homebrewing.

I'll have to dig out my recipe and post it, but mine came out a little like a lighter belgian dubbel, and I think I know the "funk" you're referring to. I think I have one last bottle of CDJ in the cellar somewhere, though it had a bottled-on date of 6/2006...

Kegged my CDJ cultured biere de garde on Saturday, 3/1. The sample tasted great, reminiscent of CDJ. Crystal clear after lagering for 3 months. Collected the slurry from the bottom of the secondary. Should prove to be a good starting point for the next batch. I'll tweak my recipe a bit and probably raise the fermentation temperature some.