Decoction partial mash

I do a partial mash with 6 lb of grain supplemented with 3 lb of dme.
I am considering doing a decoction and wondering if it would make a noticable difference with a partial mash The instructions I have say to pull 40% of the grain for the decoction.

Do you think it'll be worth the extra effort? I' making an octoberfest.

I'm sure Kaiser will chime in with a more informed opinion, but if it were me I'm not sure I'd bother with it for such a small quantity of grain. On the other hand I find decoction mashing fun so I might be inclined to do it just for that reason.

In terms of flavour though I don't think you'll notice any difference.

Hmm, if you really want to do it (heck, why not?) you could pull all of the grain leaving just the thin mash. Since you'd be pulling "too much", you'd need to cool a lot of it before returning it to the main mash. But it seems like it would work, and that way you would get the melanoidins you are looking for.

elowe said:

Hmm, if you really want to do it (heck, why not?) you could pull all of the grain leaving just the thin mash. Since you'd be pulling "too much", you'd need to cool a lot of it before returning it to the main mash. But it seems like it would work, and that way you would get the melanoidins you are looking for.

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Ya that would work but you'd still need some of the thin mash so you can convert the grains in the 'mini rest' during the decoction. Either way it would be a fun exercise though!

If you haven't seen it yet Cos, check out Kaiser's decoction video thread. It's a fantastic resource!

How would you go about this

How to go about doing a decoction with a partial mash?
Easy.
You will need two pots capable of handling a boil to do this. One is for boiling the decoction, one is for hot mash water.

** This is for a single decoction, 60 minute mash. **
Put your extract to the side and concentrate on the grain.
Add water to your grains and dough in at your first saccharification temp. After 15-20 minutes, remove 1/3rd of the grain and mash liquid to a second pot and bring it to a boil while stirring.
Once the mix has reached a boil for approximately 5-10 mins, re-add to your mash tun. If needed, add water and check to see if you've reached your next temperature level. If so, continue to mash as usual for another 30 minutes. Mash out to 170F if needed, lauter until clear, then add wort to boil kettle.
Adding your extract to the boil will be the last step and isn't really recommended to be added to a decoction step. Decoction steps are usually for the grain portion and adding extract may cause your wort to darken unnecessarily.

I've done single/double decoctions for German-style beers, but decided they were a bit time consuming.
After doing so, I've found it simpler just to alter grain choices to simulate a decoction by substituting some Munich, a small portion of Caramunich, or even melanoidin to compensate for my laziness. I've even subbed Maris Otter for Pilsner in some styles for a single base malt to change the character of a beer.

Does a decoction change the character of the beer?
Yes, but some of that character can be covered by hops and yeast esters/phenols in certain styles. My sniffer/taster isn't so sharp as some, but in lighter, drier beers (Pils, Helles) a decoction might be noticeable as opposed to the maltier dunkels or bocks.

I want to try a decoction mash for the first time in this stout recipe. What temperature would be a good saccharification for:
1lbs marris otter
10oz roasted barley
.5lbs special b
.5lbs 6 row
2oz chocolate
10oz rolled oats
.5lbs flaked barley

3lbs Pilsen lme
3lbs dark lme
.5lbs dark dme

And should I do a protien rest?

Personally, I wouldn't bother with a protein rest and would reduce the amount of Special B and roasted barley. The recipe looks OK in a calculator as an "oatmeal stout" style, but ten ounces of roast barley might render too much bitterness.
For something like this, I'd mash at 152-156F. The LME and DME will probably provide a nicely fermentable wort, so allowing your grain to provide some residual body would be nice. Maris Otter will provide less diastatic enzyme content, so it helps out.

Decoction mashes were used primarily for under-modified grains with unconverted starch content, something you will find when the malting process is interrupted naturally or intentionally. In my opinion, doing a protein rest or decoction with contemporary malts would be extra work for minor gains, especially with a partial mash stout recipe containing a malt like Maris Otter.

Listen to Lefou- he smart!
Seriously, his 3 posts are right on.
Personally, I do one-step decoctions with all of my Alts and Lagers. It started out years ago when I wanted to do a 2-temp mash- starting around 147 and finishing around 157. But I was limited in adding any extra boiling water to my 5 G denny-style cooler. So, after reading Kai's (Braukaiser) website I started doing what I do now: Mash in at 145-147 for 10 minutes, then take 3qt of a thick mash. Heat that to 155 on a separate stove (I use a camping stove next to my main burner). Hold there for 10 minutes then boil for about 5 minutes. Then add back to the main mash which brings it up to 155-157. Hold there for 20 minutes then mash out. Simple technique which increases total mash time by only an extra 10 minutes (maybe 15 if I'm slow). Does it make a difference? I don't know, but I really don't care either. It's what I do.

My method is a variation of the Hochkurz mash and rarely, if ever, any decoctions.
I'm lazy and would rather substitute less diastatic alternatives like Maris Otter, Caramunich, melanoidin, or Belgian aromatic to some degree in my lighter-colored beers.

Lefou said:

Personally, I wouldn't bother with a protein rest and would reduce the amount of Special B and roasted barley. The recipe looks OK in a calculator as an "oatmeal stout" style, but ten ounces of roast barley might render too much bitterness.
For something like this, I'd mash at 152-156F. The LME and DME will probably provide a nicely fermentable wort, so allowing your grain to provide some residual body would be nice. Maris Otter will provide less diastatic enzyme content, so it helps out.

Decoction mashes were used primarily for under-modified grains with unconverted starch content, something you will find when the malting process is interrupted naturally or intentionally. In my opinion, doing a protein rest or decoction with contemporary malts would be extra work for minor gains, especially with a partial mash stout recipe containing a malt like Maris Otter.

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So mabye 6 oz of special b and 8 oz of roasted barley?

BrianK3721 said:

So mabye 6 oz of special b and 8 oz of roasted barley?

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If you want a particularly roasty stout, yes. I have no idea what your hopping preference might be for an oatmeal stout, though. The roast barley and hops will build on one another. You don't want your stout to be too bitter, but if you intend on aging it a few months, it should mellow out a bit.

When using your ingredients into Brewer's Friend, your grist yielded around 1.056 for a starting gravity. I couldn't get a bittering ratio because you didn't add any hops in the mix. About .5 bittering ratio would be fine.

Lefou said:

If you want a particularly roasty stout, yes. I have no idea what your hopping preference might be for an oatmeal stout, though. The roast barley and hops will build on one another. You don't want your stout to be too bitter, but if you intend on aging it a few months, it should mellow out a bit.

When using your ingredients into Brewer's Friend, your grist yielded around 1.056 for a starting gravity. I couldn't get a bittering ratio because you didn't add any hops in the mix. About .5 bittering ratio would be fine.

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I was planning on doing two five gallon batches with different hops: (the malt list is the same for each)
Batch 1: 60min 1oz target, 30min .5oz Cascade, 5min 1oz Ekg(east kent golding)
Batch 2: 60min 1oz cluster, 30min .5oz Cascade, 5min 1oz Ekg

BrianK3721 said:

I was planning on doing two five gallon batches with different hops: (the malt list is the same for each)
Batch 1: 60min 1oz target, 30min .5oz Cascade, 5min 1oz Ekg(east kent golding)
Batch 2: 60min 1oz cluster, 30min .5oz Cascade, 5min 1oz Ekg

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Your 30 minute additon of Cascade will add mostly bitterness as that long of boil will isomerize the hop oils or drive them off in the steam and the final 5 minutes of EKG will add the flavor. With that said, you are doing a stout and they typically do not have late additions of hops, instead relying on the 60 minute additon for the bittering and the malts for the flavors. I'd probably save the Cascade and EKG for a lighter color beer where their contributions would be more noticeable and more in style.

RM-MN said:

Your 30 minute additon of Cascade will add mostly bitterness as that long of boil will isomerize the hop oils or drive them off in the steam and the final 5 minutes of EKG will add the flavor. With that said, you are doing a stout and they typically do not have late additions of hops, instead relying on the 60 minute additon for the bittering and the malts for the flavors. I'd probably save the Cascade and EKG for a lighter color beer where their contributions would be more noticeable and more in style.

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I'm new..ish to this so I don't know (and in which case I appreciate all of your opinions) but I was first looking for a Guinness stout clone recipe, and all of the ones I seen used aleast 2 oz of ekg but then I came across one that used 2oz of target instead of EKG,(and they all used different grains).. Anyway I couldn't choose so I decided to try my own recipe, and that's what you see....I guess what I'm getting at here is all of the other recipes called for atleast 2oz of hops, what makes 2.5oz to much in my recipe would 2oz be proper or would 1oz

BrianK3721 said:

I'm new..ish to this so I don't know (and in which case I appreciate all of your opinions) but I was first looking for a Guinness stout clone recipe, and all of the ones I seen used aleast 2 oz of ekg but then I came across one that used 2oz of target instead of EKG,(and they all used different grains).. Anyway I couldn't choose so I decided to try my own recipe, and that's what you see....I guess what I'm getting at here is all of the other recipes called for atleast 2oz of hops, what makes 2.5oz to much in my recipe would 2oz be proper or would 1oz

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Has anyone liked the flavor from molasses in a stout, I have 6 oz of light molasses I was thinking about using

You don't use oz in adding and exchanging hops. 1 oz of Cascade is going to bitter vastly different than 1oz of EKG. You'll want to check the alpha acid % listed on the hops to know how much you are adding. Molasses is mainly a simple sugar and will add very little to the taste of a stout. It will just bump the alcohol percentage by a small amount.

azmark said:

You don't use oz in adding and exchanging hops. 1 oz of Cascade is going to bitter vastly different than 1oz of EKG. You'll want to check the alpha acid % listed on the hops to know how much you are adding. Molasses is mainly a simple sugar and will add very little to the taste of a stout. It will just bump the alcohol percentage by a small amount.

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Oh ok, thank you

Have you ever cold-steeped your roasted grains?

I have not. You would normally do this if you want more of the color and less of the roasted flavor. If doing a stout, I would think keeping the roasted notes in the beer would be favorable.

azmark said:

I have not. You would normally do this if you want more of the color and less of the roasted flavor. If doing a stout, I would think keeping the roasted notes in the beer would be favorable.

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But if you steeped more grain would you not get the flavor without that bite, like coldbrew coffee?