Why Aren't My Hoppy Beers Hoppy?!

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knokep

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I've recently been working very hard on perfecting an IPA. Although I keep tweaking I can't seem to get the bitterness or aroma that commerical IPAs acheive. I'm hoping the knowledge of this group can give me some things to try out and get the hop bomb nailed down.

My last attempt used the following recipe:

Tgt OG: 1.070 @ 70% efficieceny in 5.5 gal batch. Calculated IBU 92 (Via Brewtoad)

13# 2 Row
1# Munich
1# CaraHell

60min 1.5 Oz Warrior 16% AA
20min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA
15min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA
10min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA
5 min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA

Dry Hop 2 Weeks 1 oz Amarillo & 1 oz Simcoe

Safale S05

Adjusted Water Profile
72ppm Ca, 11 ppm Mg, 31 ppm Na, 150 ppm Sulfate, 44 ppm Chloride
Mash pH 5.3, Sparge pH 5.6

BIAB method used with a 10 min dunk sparge.

Actual OG 1.074, FG 1.014

Tasting has very little hop aroma and a lot less biterness than the calculated ibu should impart.

Am I using too few hops? (Calculated ibu's being incorrect?) Does my water need further adjustment? Is a higher OG balancing out the beer? Anyone have any thoughts on what to try next?
 
I don't know about you're water but you're definitely in need of more hops. I use at least 5oz in ipas with another 1-2 for dry hoping. You'll also want to focus on late additions (<15min) with a small 60min addition for bitterness. Ibus don't equal flavor.
 
I've recently been working very hard on perfecting an IPA. Although I keep tweaking I can't seem to get the bitterness or aroma that commerical IPAs acheive. I'm hoping the knowledge of this group can give me some things to try out and get the hop bomb nailed down.

My last attempt used the following recipe:

Tgt OG: 1.070 @ 70% efficieceny in 5.5 gal batch. Calculated IBU 92 (Via Brewtoad)

13# 2 Row
1# Munich
1# CaraHell

60min 1.5 Oz Warrior 16% AA
20min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA
15min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA
10min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA
5 min 0.25 Oz Amarillo 8.2% AA & 0.25 Oz Simcoe 13% AA

Dry Hop 2 Weeks 1 oz Amarillo & 1 oz Simcoe

Safale S05

Adjusted Water Profile
72ppm Ca, 11 ppm Mg, 31 ppm Na, 150 ppm Sulfate, 44 ppm Chloride
Mash pH 5.3, Sparge pH 5.6

BIAB method used with a 10 min dunk sparge.

Actual OG 1.074, FG 1.014

Tasting has very little hop aroma and a lot less biterness than the calculated ibu should impart.

Am I using too few hops? (Calculated ibu's being incorrect?) Does my water need further adjustment? Is a higher OG balancing out the beer? Anyone have any thoughts on what to try next?

There are a couple of questions you will want to answer before we can offer specific advice. The first is, what commercial examples are you trying to emulate? If you can answer that, we might be able to offer you a decent clone recipe for the beer. The second is, what do you mean by "hoppy"? You mentioned both bitterness and aroma, so I'll assume for now that you are trying to increase bitterness and aroma, and can answer from that angle.

Bitterness: This is the easiest part of your process to nail down. You essentially just need to know the AA content of the hops you're using (and calculate losses due to age and storage). There are a number of online sources for this. Here's one. If your calculations aren't equaling what you expect them to, it's possible that the hops that you are using are old or were stored improperly.

Aroma: Most of the aroma you get from the best commercial examples of IPAs are achieved through big dry hop additions (3-5 oz in a 5 gal batch).

Bonus: A great supplement to dry hopping is adding several oz of hops post flameout for a hop stand or whirlpool addition. You're looking to let the hops steep in the beer for 20-30 minutes under 180 degrees (but above 160). This addition will help achieve the hop flavor from the essential oils, and will also impart perceived bitterness (even though most online calculators won't factor for this).
 
Your recipe calculates to 112 IBU Rager, 86 IBU Tinseth (What BrewToad uses). Any IBU calculator is an estimate but the differences can be huge and I think it's worth calculating both ways and seeing which number is closer to a commercial beer of the same IBU.

There are "factors" involved in these formulas and there are no correct answers to what these factors are. You'll see what I assumed on my IBU spreadsheet snapshot below. I think the best policy is to choose values you feel comfortable with, brew a lot without changing them, and with time review if your calculated IBU's meet your expectations. Tinseth with a "Concentration Factor" of 1.0 and "Hop Form" factor of 1.0 for pellet hops meets my expectations.

Most of these can be changed in brewing software if you dig deep enough. I haven't seen a calculator doing side-by-side calculations, so I made a spreadsheet.

Aroma & Flavor hopping is trial and error. You may just need more hops everywhere.

Untitled2.jpg
 
I don't see the mash temp listed. If you're mashing in the upper 150's the beer won't seem as hoppy as it would if mashed at 148 - 150.
 
Not enough hops! For the same volume I use maybe 4-8 oz mostly late additions. If that doesn't work add gypsum. Mash temp might be a factor but truly a hoppy beer needs hops...

Steve da sleeve
 
I've only brewed a handfull of IPAs so far, but a nice FWH addition really made the difference for me. My first few I only did a bittering addition. In the last couple, I replaced my 60 minute additions with FWH, and the flavor beats the life out of my previous IPAs. With that said, the perceived bitterness from FWH'ing is lower. So, if you really want a bit more bite, I'd say FWH & 60 min, plus late additions (2-4 oz in the last 15 minutes), and dry hopping is a must.
 
Your issue is not a chemistry problem, it's a recipe problem. You barely have enough late kettle hops to qualify that beer as a pale ale- I'm not sure I'd even call it that. It's more like a strong Blonde Ale. You need at least 3oz of late kettle (say, 1oz at 20, 10, 0) and a big dry hop. A whirlpool addition would do nicely as well.
 
I know it's a dumb question, but I looked at your original post and didn't see a specific clarification. You're doing a full boil, right?

What volume do you start boiling at in order to get down to 5.5? If you aren't doing a full boil but topping off that will also significantly reduce your bitterness and flavoring.

I know... dumb question.

I would also agree that your flavoring hops should be bumped up to about an ounce instead of a quarter ounce.

Carry on. I bring nothing to the table.
 
I don't see the mash temp listed. If you're mashing in the upper 150's the beer won't seem as hoppy as it would if mashed at 148 - 150.

153

Do you squeeze out your hops?

Yes

I know it's a dumb question, but I looked at your original post and didn't see a specific clarification. You're doing a full boil, right?

What volume do you start boiling at in order to get down to 5.5? If you aren't doing a full boil but topping off that will also significantly reduce your bitterness and flavoring.

Full Boil, ~ 7 gallon pre boil

Your issue is not a chemistry problem, it's a recipe problem. You barely have enough late kettle hops to qualify that beer as a pale ale- I'm not sure I'd even call it that. It's more like a strong Blonde Ale. You need at least 3oz of late kettle (say, 1oz at 20, 10, 0) and a big dry hop. A whirlpool addition would do nicely as well.

Ok... More hops it is. I realize the answer is somewhat obvious, but watching the IBU's build up I've always been afraid of being undrinkable. I'll likely double late additions for the next batch and see how it turns out.

Thanks for the Help!
 
Another option would be first wort hops. They have slightly more utilization than a 90min boil and taste panels when comparing regularly hopped beers to first wort hopped beers usually find the aroma and taste to be greater in the pre boil hopped beers.
 
Look into other things as well because bitterness is perceived characteristic that is influenced by more than an IBU number. Your recipe should make a bitter beer so check on the following before adding more hops.

To accent bitterness, you want to finish at a very low gravity. Less body and less sweetness boost the perceived bitterness. Mash at lower temps to thin the body for example.

Oxidation is a bitterness killer too. Once you pitch, try to keep your brew out of contact with the air from then on. On the pitching side, make yeast starters as well. That will help push your FG down but will also help the yeast soak up the oxygen quicker to reduce the exposure time.

Use a rolling boil so you are utilizing all of your hops. If your boil is weak then you might not be converting the alphas to obtain your target IBU.
 
Is your water like that out of the tap or are you diluting with RO? Either way,maybe look into adding a 1 tsp of gypsum/ 5 gal to bump the sulfate over 200ppm. For extremely bitter beers, the sulfate can go upwards to 350ppm. I had similar problems with making my hops stand out even though I was using a lot (so I thought). Once I dialed my water in using the correct so4/chloride ratio, I was making hoppy beers that I was proud of. Good luck!
 
Make sure your hops aren't sticking to the side of your kettle after you add them - stir them back into solution.
 
Sulfate won't make the beer more bitter but it will change the quality of the bitterness. You can experiment with its effects by adding gypsum to a glass of the beer in question. If you want really hoppy beer you should probably brew it with low sulfate water as that allows the drinker to tolerate more bitterness so that more hops can be used and more hop flavor and aroma are imparted. This is what the brew pub I most patronize does. He uses tons of hops but his sulfate is only 47 ppm. All the flavors come out without the harsh bitterness. I don't, in general, like 'hop bombs' but some of this man's beers of that nature are really good. Another secret: he uses extracts (I mean hop extracts) including the extracted essential oils. These smell and taste of hops without contributing bitterness.
 
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