Help with improving my process for a Big Beer

OK, I'm working on an IIPA. I made the recipe, brewed it, and now have it on tap. It started at 1.089, after 4 weeks in primary, it hit about 1.025. I use a finishing narrow-range hydrometer, so I'm pretty sure that was a dead end for that brew. Hadn't moved in days.

It's good, but tastes more like a sweet, hoppy Barleywine and that's not what I want. I'm looking for input on things I can do to improve. Trying to hit something in the 1.007 range.

LAST TIME:
1. Made a simple 1L starter +Wyeast Nutrient. Nothing added to main wort.

2. Fermented at Room Temp in closet, about 67.

THIS TIME:
1. Am going to make a 1L Starter, decant it, pour a fresh 1L of wort on starter, go again, then pitch. Use Wyeast Nutrient both times, plus in boil of main wort. I stir plate my starters, and am starting them at ~1.040.

2. Putting Carboy out in garage, I have a thermo monitoring it and I think it's going to hold closer to 60. A little concerned it may dip below 60 at night.

3. Always I shake wort to aerate, this time plan on shaking a little longer, 2-3 minutes.

Would love input! BTW, the yeast is Pacman.

How much sugar did you put in the recipe? If you're trying to finish at 1.007, that's 92% attenuation, which is pretty hard, but doable. I get similar attenuation on my strong Belgian beers. I pitch onto a whole cake of yeast, like from a whole batch of 1.05-ish beer. I also use plain sugar for up to 20% of the grist.

What's your mash for this one? Also, as said, some normal table sugar will definitely help dry it out.

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blizzard of Hopzz
Brewer: Brewhaus 1337
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 11.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 115.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
15 lbs NW Pale Ale (2.7 SRM) Grain 82.19 %
1 lbs Toasted Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 5.48 %
8.0 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 2.74 %
8.0 oz Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (60.0 Grain 2.74 %
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (Dry Hop 21 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (Dry Hop 21 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Nugget2 [12.00 %] (90 min) Hops 30.6 IBU
2.00 oz Nugget [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 58.1 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (30 min) Hops 9.5 IBU
1.00 oz Liberty [4.30 %] (20 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo2 [8.60 %] (15 min) Hops 10.2 IBU
1 lbs 4.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6.85 %
5.50 gal Eugene, OR Water
1 Pkgs Pac-Man (Wyeast Labs) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 17.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 21.25 qt of water at 164.5 F 149.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 17.00 qt of water at 201.7 F 170.0 F

I'm definitely gonna make some changes to the hop schedule, but the malt character is pretty dialed in to what I'm after. This was a first run for the recipe.

Take out 10% of the sugars and replace with table sugar. It will barely change the character of the beer but will get you much better attenuation.

But I hate to be a damper - I don't think you can achieve these massive attenuation expectations without oxygen. Especially on a huge beer, and especially since you said, "Always I shake wort to aerate, this time plan on shaking a little longer, 2-3 minutes." I would say 2-3 minutes is way under oxygenated for even a small beer.

I know your temptation is going to be to cite the videos out there produced by Wyeast or whatever that say a couple minutes of shaking achieves 8ppm O2. If that's what you believe, there's nothing I can say. But I noticed a HUGE improvement in the speed of fermentation, the health of my yeast, and especially the attenuation when I started using pure O2.

kanzimonson said:

Take out 10% of the sugars and replace with table sugar. It will barely change the character of the beer but will get you much better attenuation.

But I hate to be a damper - I don't think you can achieve these massive attenuation expectations without oxygen. Especially on a huge beer, and especially since you said, "Always I shake wort to aerate, this time plan on shaking a little longer, 2-3 minutes." I would say 2-3 minutes is way under oxygenated for even a small beer.

I know your temptation is going to be to cite the videos out there produced by Wyeast or whatever that say a couple minutes of shaking achieves 8ppm O2. If that's what you believe, there's nothing I can say. But I noticed a HUGE improvement in the speed of fermentation, the health of my yeast, and especially the attenuation when I started using pure O2.

Click to expand...

OK, I got my flame suit on.

I recently brewed a west coast style barley wine with an OG of 1.092. This was a 4 gallon batch and I pitched 2 packs of rehydrated Safale US-05. This brew was nothing but grain, as in no added sugars, and finished at 1.015. Brewhouse efficiency was fair for this big of a beer at 63%, but the US-05 cranked out well over 80% attenuation by my calculation. I aerated well while transfering into the carboy and controlled fermentation temp.

Just my opinion, but if there's a high quality dry yeast available that fits the style you're brewing, liquid yeast, starters and fancy oxy setups are a waste of time and money in most cases.

Granted, many styles require these extra steps, to produce a great beer, but great beers are also produced without them.

Sorry if you think I hijacked this thread,

Bob

BobBailey said:

OK, I got my flame suit on.

I recently brewed a west coast style barley wine with an OG of 1.092. This was a 4 gallon batch and I pitched 2 packs of rehydrated Safale US-05. This brew was nothing but grain, as in no added sugars, and finished at 1.015. Brewhouse efficiency was fair for this big of a beer at 63%, but the US-05 cranked out well over 90% attenuation by my calculation. I aerated well while transfering into the carboy and controlled fermentation temp.

Just my opinion, but if there's a high quality dry yeast available that fits the style you're brewing, liquid yeast, starters and fancy oxy setups are a waste of time and money in most cases.

Granted, many styles require these extra steps, to produce a great beer, but great beers are also produced without them.

Sorry if you think I hijacked this thread,

Bob

Click to expand...

That's about 83% attenuation, not over 90%.

williamnave said:

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blizzard of Hopzz
Brewer: Brewhaus 1337
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 11.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 115.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
15 lbs NW Pale Ale (2.7 SRM) Grain 82.19 %
1 lbs Toasted Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 5.48 %
8.0 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 2.74 %
8.0 oz Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (60.0 Grain 2.74 %
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (Dry Hop 21 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (Dry Hop 21 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Nugget2 [12.00 %] (90 min) Hops 30.6 IBU
2.00 oz Nugget [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 58.1 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (30 min) Hops 9.5 IBU
1.00 oz Liberty [4.30 %] (20 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo2 [8.60 %] (15 min) Hops 10.2 IBU
1 lbs 4.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 6.85 %
5.50 gal Eugene, OR Water
1 Pkgs Pac-Man (Wyeast Labs) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 17.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 21.25 qt of water at 164.5 F 149.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 17.00 qt of water at 201.7 F 170.0 F

Click to expand...

Some suggestions that I would make are as follows. I would extend the mash time to 90 min. Anything under 150 F should be mashed for 90 min. I would also decrease the mash temp to around 145-147 F and add some simple sugars to the recipe. Also, it appears you originally under pitched for the one that stopped at 1.025. If your not already doing this, I would use a pitching rate calculator to be sure you are pitching the right amount of yeast. Also, if possible I would ferment at higher than 60 F. In general, it is a good idea to pitch low then let the temp gradually rise then hold at the desired fermentation temp. I would also skip the mash out step, which would allow additional time for the enzymes to continue to work. As previously pointed out, it is preferable to use pure O2 as O2 doesn't dissolve in solution as well when the sugar content increases.

Thanks everybody!

To answer a few random posters in no particular order, sorry, too lazy to do the whole quoting thing....

I have thought about getting an O2 setup going, right now just isn't in budget. So for now going to have to just shake the crap out of it.

I've never really used dry yeasts, and I make an normal IPA with Pacman, and really like the crisp, dry flavor I get and want that in my IIPA. According to Wyeast it can attenuate like a beast, and is alcy tolerant to nearly 12%. A guy at my LHBS used to work @ rogue, and told me PM does best at 60 and that's why I'm trying to get temp down.

I'm open to the idea of plain table sugar, but 10% would be only 2oz. Is that really going to make a difference? Should I do more?

Someone mentioned mashing longer.....I like that, consider your idea incorporated. Gonna make a long, long brewday, but oh well....

Thanks everyone, and keep the suggestions coming....Wednesday is Brewday!

:rockin:

sjbeerman said:

That's about 83% attenuation, not over 90%.

Click to expand...

Oops! Gotta start proof reading what I type while drinking. 83% is what I came up with. Good catch.

Bob

I'm not the best at it, but I'm going to try to keep this thread going from starter to keg, with pics.

My first starter has been going for 24 hrs., think I'm gonna cold crash it for a few hours, then get starter #2 going. Pics to come!

OK. Here's how much yeast I've got after first starter. I'll decant all of that wort, and I've made fresh wort to pitch right on it.

That's a 2000ml Flask, and it slopes up in the corner where I took the pic. I estimate I've got around 100ml of yeast. According to Mr Malty I need a little over 300ml.

williamnave said:

I'm open to the idea of plain table sugar, but 10% would be only 2oz. Is that really going to make a difference? Should I do more?
:rockin:

Click to expand...

I don't have beersmith on this computer, but if you have 17 pounds of grain now. Reducing the OG by 10% and adding sugar to get to back to the original OG, should be way more than 1/8th of a pound of sugar. Double check your math. I could be wrong though. I did a 1070 batch this weekend and used 10%, it was around 1.5 pounds of sugar.

I do think having 10% of your grain bill will help you out tremendously.

With an OG of 1.090, 10% sugar would mean 9 points of your gravity need to come from sugar.

For a 6 gal batch that means you need 9 x 6 = 54 gravity points.

Sugar is 42 pppg, so 54/42 = 1.29#

And that would also mean that you reduce your base malt by 54 gravity points.

Two row is 36pppg, so at 75% efficiency it comes out to 27pppg.

54/27 = 2# (how convenient) of base malt replaced by the sugar

Thanks for posting and doing all the math. 2 oz just didn't look right.

This is my IIPA
Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 68.13 %
1.75 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.17 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 5.24 %
0.65 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.41 %
0.43 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 2.25 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 1.31 %
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Citra [14.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [7.20 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 23.3 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [7.20 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [7.20 %] (60 min) Hops 39.7 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.40 %] (20 min) Hops 20.7 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [7.10 %] (10 min) Hops 7.1 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.40 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (5 min) Hops 11.0 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
2.00 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 10.48 %

I mashed at 151 and added my sugar at the end of the boil. I used 2 packs of US-05 rehydarted and it went from 1.093 to 1.012 ...... I let it sit in primary for 3 weeks and then dry hoped in secondary. The sample I took for the hydrometer tasted great and I felt this would be a great drinking IIPA. So I would suggest using the correct amount of yeast and going 10% of your malt bill as sugar. I fermented at 67 and I let it get up to 70.

Hi guys. I maybe mis-understood. Someone said replace 10% of my sugar with table sugar. I'm currently using 1.25#, so 10% is 2oz. The current amount makes it a little under 7% of my grist.

We're saying "replace 10% of your MALT sugars with table sugar."

OK...I'm at work goofing off right now, and BeerSmith is at home, I can add some table sugar to get it up to 10% and back off a pound or so of base malt.

What are your thoughts on dextrose vs. table sugar?

This beer is turning into my own personal Everest. (which is just fine!)

use whatever you have, or whatever's the cheapest... sugar is sugar in this case. hell, you could use brown sugar and probably not notice a difference.

I considered turbinado or brown, but I'm already at the color and malt flavor I want, so just going with good ol' dextrose for now.

I am going to document the entire thing and either have success, or someone on here is going to spot where I f'ed up.

Thanks for everything so far!

Went home for lunch at spent a couple minutes working on this. Blizzard ver 2.0 -

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blizzard of Hopzz
Brewer: Brewhaus 1337
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 7.89 gal
Estimated OG: 1.085 SG
Estimated Color: 9.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 83.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13 lbs NW Pale Ale (2.7 SRM) Grain 81.25 %
8.0 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.13 %
8.0 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 3.13 %
8.0 oz Crystal Malt - 60L (Thomas Fawcett) (75.0 Grain 3.13 %
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Nugget [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 64.9 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo2 [8.60 %] (15 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
1 lbs 8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 9.38 %
5.50 gal Eugene, OR Water
1 Pkgs Pac-Man (Wyeast Labs) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 14.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 18.13 qt of water at 164.5 F 149.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 14.50 qt of water at 201.9 F 170.0 F

Still not sure about my hop schedule, it will change before brewday.

Sorry to anyone still paying attention.......Brew Day got delayed, and delayed, and ended up stretching into the wee hours. I had intended to document it all, but I did take one pic I'll share.

I ended up with a really nice, thick yeast culture for pitching. Brew day went good except for finishing close to midnight.

Fermentation bubbling away like crazy, so looks good early! If I get anything under 1.015, I'll be pretty happy, but under 1.010 and I'll jump for joy.

Wish me luck!

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blizzard of Hopzz
Brewer: Brewhaus 1337
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 6.90 gal
Estimated OG: 1.089 SG
Estimated Color: 11.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 78.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13 lbs NW Pale Ale (2.7 SRM) Grain 77.61 %
1 lbs Crystal Malt 60 (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.97 %
8.0 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.99 %
8.0 oz Carahell (Weyermann) (13.0 SRM) Grain 2.99 %
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Nugget [12.20 %] (60 min) Hops 59.7 IBU
1.50 oz Williamette [5.20 %] (10 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.50 oz Amarillo2 [8.60 %] (10 min) Hops 11.4 IBU
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tbsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 lbs 12.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 10.45 %
5.50 gal Eugene, OR Water
1 Pkgs Pac-Man (Wyeast Labs) Yeast-Ale

Got 1st hydro reading today, it's early yet but still not promising.

I use a narrow-range hydrometer. It cuts off at 1.020. I was just a touch over that, if I had to guess it's 1.023-1.025.

Anybody have any input on that being a good, bad or indifferent sign?