First time 2 stage yeast starter

Hey homebrewers I just did my first yeast starter with my brand new stir plate "stirstarter"

I said why don't we try a real starter to play with my new toy !!!

Here is my impression

2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME boiled for 10 mins and then added 1x pack of Wyeast Nothwest Ale stired for 24 hours...

Let it sit on the counter for a few hours to decant the wort and then added another 2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME that was at room temp... Stired for another 24 hours...

The liquid was beige and very creamy Everything sounds good so far

I brew my Caramel brew racked it to my primary, set it to rest with the starter in the flask near by for 7 hours before pitching just to be sure the both liquids are at the same temp wich is 70 degrees...

My beer started fermenting 20 hours after pitching... Isn't it supposed to reduce lag time ?

Actually I see no difference between a normal pitch and my 2 stage starter, is this normal ?

I must mention that I racked the whole brew pot into my fermenter, trub and all... I put all my hops in a muslin bag but the whirlflock tablet made so much suspention that even my OG test tube had a cold break in it Can this affect the yeast ?

Maby I thought it would rock the hell out of my beer...

What am I supposed to expect with a starter ? Is everything normal ?

My OG was 1.046

According to Mr.Malty my target cell count should have been 179 Billion and I pitched 149 billion, I should have made a 3rd step but I was out of time

Anyone ?

Q- what did you expect to see differently?
Did you oxygenate? If not, that can slow down the initial fermentation.
A 'visual 20- hour lag time' is not bad. And remember while you may not see anything happening, those little boogers are working very hard, multiplying to the perfect number, aerobic fermenting, and in-general getting ready for the visible stage of anaerobic fermentation. So, it may not have looked any different, but I'm betting your yeasties were much happier, and will ultimately give you a better brew with fewer off-flavors.
They called- Your yeast thanks you!
p.s. the trub won't affect the yeast, except possibly to provide some nutrients.

JimRausch said:

Q- what did you expect to see differently?
Did you oxygenate? If not, that can slow down the initial fermentation.
A 'visual 20- hour lag time' is not bad. And remember while you may not see anything happening, those little boogers are working very hard, multiplying to the perfect number, aerobic fermenting, and in-general getting ready for the visible stage of anaerobic fermentation. So, it may not have looked any different, but I'm betting your yeasties were much happier, and will ultimately give you a better brew with fewer off-flavors.
They called- Your yeast thanks you!
p.s. the trub won't affect the yeast, except possibly to provide some nutrients.

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Thanks dude I actualy don't know what to expect... I did not oxegenate the yeast I just removed the stopper and poured all the creamy liquid...

Maby I thought it would start bubbling like mad in a 2 hour time frame -) habahaaha stupid me lol

So all in all aside from more yeast cells, it's the same thing as pitching a smack pack

2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME boiled for 10 mins and then added 1x pack of Wyeast Nothwest Ale stired for 24 hours...

Let it sit on the counter for a few hours to decant the wort and then added another 2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME that was at room temp... Stired for another 24 hours...

The liquid was beige and very creamy Everything sounds good so far

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Next time be sure to actually refrigerate for a day or two between steps before decanting as this forces the yeast to drop to the bottom and form a cake. If you left this starter on the counter for a few hours and then decanted I assure you that you decanted a LOT of yeast left in suspension so you, in reality did not fully pitch the amount of yeast you thought in your beer

Also, when calculating starters go to either or www.mrmalty.com so you know how big a starter you need. In addition, get yourself a small digital scale so you can weigh out your DME, measuring by cups is far from exact. You basically want a 10:1 ratio of DME to water so, example: a 1 liter starter would use 100 grams of DME for a 1.030 wort.

Cheers on taking the step to make starters, you will be rewarded with great beer!

Edit: Didn't see the above poster regarding cold crashing before decanting.

Only other i'd suggest is yeastcalc.com for multi stage starter. They have everything right there for what u need for each step.

Your first step should be into 8 ounces of 1.020 wort. The yeast from this step should be pitched into a 32oz 1.040 starter. The yeast in the 32 oz starter should reduce your lag time to around 12 hours or less.

duboman said:

Next time be sure to actually refrigerate for a day or two between steps before decanting as this forces the yeast to drop to the bottom and form a cake. If you left this starter on the counter for a few hours and then decanted I assure you that you decanted a LOT of yeast left in suspension so you, in reality did not fully pitch the amount of yeast you thought in your beer

Also, when calculating starters go to either or www.mrmalty.com so you know how big a starter you need. In addition, get yourself a small digital scale so you can weigh out your DME, measuring by cups is far from exact. You basically want a 10:1 ratio of DME to water so, example: a 1 liter starter would use 100 grams of DME for a 1.030 wort.

Cheers on taking the step to make starters, you will be rewarded with great beer!

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Thanks for the input I still have to tweak my thecniq for starters

Can I do a single stage starter without habing to setp it up ?

If I step it up do I have to decant ?

jesseroberge said:

Thanks for the input I still have to tweak my thecniq for starters

Can I do a single stage starter without habing to setp it up ?

If I step it up do I have to decant ?

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Yes you can do a single but the mentioned calculators will tell you what size you need

Yes, decanting is advised or you may not fit the volume you need for each step.

In addition, I suggest decanting all starters prior to pitch as I do not want any left over starter beer in my finished product but ymmv

jesseroberge said:

I did not oxegenate the yeast I just removed the stopper and poured all the creamy liquid...

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Are you saying you stoppered your starter flask? Next time you might consider using a piece of sanitized foil instead of a stopper. This will allow CO2 to escape and atmospheric air (with oxygen!) to get into the flask. I bet you'd have a quicker start to fermentation and higher yeast cell counts this way.

CraptainWirtz said:

Are you saying you stoppered your starter flask? Next time you might consider using a piece of sanitized foil instead of a stopper. This will allow CO2 to escape and atmospheric air (with oxygen!) to get into the flask. I bet you'd have a quicker start to fermentation and higher yeast cell counts this way.

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No no I didn't stopper the flask, sory I mis wrote.. My fermenter was stopped the flask was foiled

As others said, cold-crash the starter before decanting. You lost a lot of yeast cells. Also aerate the heck out of both the yeast starter and the main wort. And +1 on using a kitchen scale to accurately measure out the DME instead of relying on volume. You can do single-step starters, but you may need a bigger flask. Also consider using Fermcap to control the krausen in the flask. Plan ahead, allow your starters a full 24 hours to run through, then cold-crash for 2 days, decant, and just pitch the actual yeast slurry, not the spent starter wort.

How long can a starter live in the fridge ?

How long can a smack-pack or vial live in the fridge?

If you've been diligent with your sanitation, I'd have no concerns about storing a yeast starting in the fridge for a couple of weeks before decanting and pitching. Any longer than that, I'd probably want to do another starter again.

kombat said:

How long can a smack-pack or vial live in the fridge?

If you've been diligent with your sanitation, I'd have no concerns about storing a yeast starting in the fridge for a couple of weeks before decanting and pitching. Any longer than that, I'd probably want to do another starter again.

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Alot of people believe in pitching that starter at high krausen for the best benefit. If you put it in the fridge for longer then say 3-4 days, alot of info that ive seen recommends adding DME again and going thru that whole process to get it up and running and active.

I've never done it, but its just what ive read.

jesseroberge said:

2 cups of water and 1/2 cup of DME boiled for 10 mins and then added 1x pack of Wyeast Nothwest Ale stired for 24 hours...

Click to expand...

I didn't see anybody else specifically call this out, so...

I think your starter here had way too high gravity. According to the White Labs site, you should be using 2 pints of water for 1/2c DME, not 2 cups.

Pratzie said:

Alot of people believe in pitching that starter at high krausen for the best benefit.

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True, and I actually used to do that myself, too. However, I read something that changed my mind, and now I always let my starters run to completion and cold-crash/decant before pitching.

The explanation I read basically made the following argument: What's the point of making a yeast starter? The answer, of course, is "to build up the necessary count of yeast cells," right? We all know this. But if you pitch at high krausen, the yeast are not yet fully done multiplying. You're short-circuiting their cycle. You don't yet have the full cell count that you would if you let them finish.

Yes, you'll get a faster start to your main fermentation. But that's not the point of a yeast starter. The point of a yeast starter is to grow an optimal cell count, not speed up the main fermentation.

curtw said:

I didn't see anybody else specifically call this out, so...

I think your starter here had way too high gravity. According to the White Labs site, you should be using 2 pints of water for 1/2c DME, not 2 cups.

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To be even more accurate, you should be weighing the DME, not basing it on volume. The guideline I've read and follow is 100g DME per liter of water.

Quick summary from what I've read so far

- First starter wasn't cold crashed - probably lost a lot of yeast in suspension
- Starter gravity may have been too high (target is around 1.040)

Additionally,
- 24 hours may have been a little short for a first step (although I haven't used a stir plate yet)
- If the OP is concerned about lag, two other areas are yeast nutrient additions in starter/wort, and oxygenation of the wort. I didn't see these mentioned.

You're probably fine regardless, assuming the fermentation is moving along as you'd expect.

Ok, I'm just amazed on the quantity of know how on this forum... Thanks a million guys I realy enjoy reading all your posts

I went to Mrmalty.com to fiddle with the calculator and WOAH I am more than mixed up... Can anyone give me a crash course on mrmalty or another site lke that...

I found brewersfriend.com pretty complete but still have trouble understanding all the calculations... Just chosing my ferakin' stirplate is a job !!

jesseroberge said:

Ok, I'm just amazed on the quantity of know how on this forum... Thanks a million guys I realy enjoy reading all your posts

I went to Mrmalty.com to fiddle with the calculator and WOAH I am more than mixed up... Can anyone give me a crash course on mrmalty or another site lke that...

I found brewersfriend.com pretty complete but still have trouble understanding all the calculations... Just chosing my ferakin' stirplate is a job !!

Click to expand...

What was the production date on your vial of yeast? And what was your batch size (guessing around a 5.5 gallon batch)? That's all of the info we will need to get a screencap of the calculator for people to chime in on what their process would be an why.

I fiddled with mr.malty and it said for 1 yeast packet according to the dat of production my starter needed to be 2.3 leters...

How do I make a 2.3 leter DME/WATER starter with correct OG...

I only have a 1leter flask... How do I devide the quantity ?

jesseroberge said:

I fiddled with mr.malty and it said for 1 yeast packet according to the dat of production my starter needed to be 2.3 leters...

How do I make a 2.3 leter DME/WATER starter with correct OG...

I only have a 1leter flask... How do I devide the quantity ?

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Edit - first post wasn't so helpful

You need to use something bigger - probably in the 1 gallon range. Before I got the larger flasks and 1 gallon glass jugs, II would do the following
1) Buy a gallon jug of spring water,
2) Use 1/2 I it (approx) with DME in a big pot to make a starter (need to keep the lid on enough that it gets steam sterilized without causing boil-over).
3) Drink the rest of the water, dump it, or use it to water house plants
4) when starter is done, completely cover with lid and sit in sink of cold water to cool
5) Thoroughly sanitize the empty water jug and a funnel and poor the cooled wort into the jug
6) Add yeast and airlock (or foil)

You could probably use the jug on a stir plate, but it might not work well.

brewguyver said:

Edit - first post wasn't so helpful

You need to use something bigger - probably in the 1 gallon range. Before I got the larger flasks and 1 gallon glass jugs, II would do the following
1) Buy a gallon jug of spring water,
2) Use 1/2 I it (approx) with DME in a big pot to make a starter (need to keep the lid on enough that it gets steam sterilized without causing boil-over).
3) Drink the rest of the water, dump it, or use it to water house plants
4) when starter is done, completely cover with lid and sit in sink of cold water to cool
5) Thoroughly sanitize the empty water jug and a funnel and poor the cooled wort into the jug
6) Add yeast and airlock (or foil)

You could probably use the jug on a stir plate, but it might not work well.

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Ok your method is for a one step starter... I can't use a plastic jug on my stir plate...

I still don't know how much DME and water I need for a 2.3L of starter

jesseroberge said:

Ok your method is for a one step starter... I can't use a plastic jug on my stir plate...

I still don't know how much DME and water I need for a 2.3L of starter

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A 10:1 ratio is ideal so for 2.3L use 230grams of DME

If you only have a 2L flask then divide in half and do a 2 step starter

duboman said:

A 10:1 ratio is ideal so for 2.3L use 230grams of DME

If you only have a 2L flask then divide in half and do a 2 step starter

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Is the ratio always 10:1 ? I have a 1L flask si i'll devide by 3 for a 3 step right ?

Do I have to devide the whole wort evenly or I just add to desire, chill, decant and repeat until the whole liquid has been added ?

That ratio will get you a 1.040 wort. Stressed yeast or old yeast you would probably want a lower say 1.030 wort for the first step

jesseroberge said:

Is the ratio always 10:1 ? I have a 1L flask si i'll devide by 3 for a 3 step right ?

Do I have to devide the whole wort evenly or I just add to desire, chill, decant and repeat until the whole liquid has been added ?

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You're going to hit the law of diminishing returns pretty quickly by continuously doing 1L starters. Rule of thumb for stepping up effectively is about 10x. Now you don't actually have to do that, but 1l is pretty small. It will be tough for you to grow a 1L starter to the proportions of yeast for a 2.3L - eventually you won't have enough food to support that much yeast.

It might seem like you could double the wort concentration to fix that, but as folks mentioned - over 1.040 = stressed yeast. So you couldn't do a double strength 1 L starter to hit your target.

What might work for you if you're set on the 1L flask is splitting your starter. Cut it to halves or thirds and step each up individually. It's more work, but should get you near the same place.

At the end of the day, barring contamination you're going to end up with pretty good beer regardless. The fact that you're doing a stir plate starter at all will be a huge help, and a little under or over pitching won't kill you if the rest of your process is solid.

Great advice given here on how to step up, starter proper gravity and such.

But... OG is 1.046.

What's the batch size? For a five gallons, at that OG, there is no need for a starter with a Wyeast Activator (big pouch with smack pack), given that the production date is within 1 month, IMHO and experience.

brewguyver said:

You're going to hit the law of diminishing returns pretty quickly by continuously doing 1L starters. Rule of thumb for stepping up effectively is about 10x. Now you don't actually have to do that, but 1l is pretty small. It will be tough for you to grow a 1L starter to the proportions of yeast for a 2.3L - eventually you won't have enough food to support that much yeast.

It might seem like you could double the wort concentration to fix that, but as folks mentioned - over 1.040 = stressed yeast. So you couldn't do a double strength 1 L starter to hit your target.

What might work for you if you're set on the 1L flask is splitting your starter. Cut it to halves or thirds and step each up individually. It's more work, but should get you near the same place.

At the end of the day, barring contamination you're going to end up with pretty good beer regardless. The fact that you're doing a stir plate starter at all will be a huge help, and a little under or over pitching won't kill you if the rest of your process is solid.

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Confused

jesseroberge said:

Confused

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Which part? I'll try to use a metaphor since i'm not sure where i lost you.

On the stepping up concept, think of it this way. Say your flask is the state of Rhode Island. You're trying to get your population up to that of the whole northeast.

First off, it'll be hard to fit the entire population of NY, Philly, Boston, and everything in between into the tiny state of Rhode Island.

Secondly, you mention giving your population their food in 1/2 or 1/3 portions (e.g. Slitting your 2.3 liters of starter wort and dosing your 1L flask 3 times). Eventually your population would be too big to survive on the split portion of food, and they'd either stop growing or would starve.

What I'm getting at here Is that you really need a bigger container.

Continuing the metaphor though another option would be to split up your starter. So if we took your first step is about the size of the state of Rhode Island and put that into three equally sized states today with 1/3 the population, you can grow each of them up significantly without being too overcrowded without giving them too little food.

Thanks for the info, if I get a 5 leter flask I could Do a one step only and not habe the hastle of splitting Right ?

jesseroberge said:

Thanks for the info, if I get a 5 leter flask I could Do a one step only and not habe the hastle of splitting Right ?

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Yep. And if you want to do a step from a 1L to a 5L, that's pretty easy too.

If I find a good way to use a glass gallon jug on a stir plate, I'll let you know

Look at yeastcalc.com about doing a stepped starter. Hover over any field and it will give information. There is also a calculator to tell you how much dme to use.

A step starter allows you to use a smaller flask so that you don't have to spend big $$ on a big flask.

It is really not that difficult. Just takes more time. I start from 5ml vials of frozen yeast.

In Yeastcalc it will tell you at the the needed cell count then you can change the sizes of each step until the cell count at the final step contains the right count.

The major mistake in the initial post was to decant after only a few hours. You want the yeast to settle out of suspension so that the "beer" on top is very clear. Chilling is the best way to accomplish this. If it is still cloudy that is yeast in suspension. And a lot of yeast, remember a clear beer still has enough yeast in suspension to bottle condition the beer.

The 1:10 ratio is constant if you want a starter wort between 1.038 and 1.040. I make my first step a little light. I saw someone state that pitching at high krausen does not let the cells reproduce fully. I disagree. They are mostly done reproducing and are then primarily working at fermenting the beer. I still decant if my starter is larger that a liter since I don't want to add that liquid to my beer.