IDEA: Ice water chilling with no pump.

We've talked about pumping icewater into our chillers (either IC, CFC, or plate regardless) with a pond pump and we mostly all agree is more efficient than a prechiller due to one less heat transfer. Many times people revert to the prechiller because they already have an old IC laying around or at least get the copper at a discount. I suppose this because pond pumps are just about the same price as 25' of copper these days.

Ok, but what if you didn't need either. The prechiller sounds nice because it leverages city water pressure to drive through the coolant coil. We typically can't do this with an icewater bin but it's only because it won't hold pressure. I was looking at my grain storage bin with a screw on gasketed lid and thought "why not put hose thread bulkheads in, fill with ice and run the hose pressure through it"?I've drained icewater out of a bottling bucket sitting high above my brewstand before, but it was less than ideal.

The tap water (presumably warmer than you'd like) enters from the bottom, rises up through the ice and out a bulkhead in the top and into your chiller. I wouldn't recommend running this with any outlet restriction because it probably wouldn't handle full city pressure but I don't think it would have a problem with a chiller's backpressure.

Pros, Cons, dealbreakers? The advantage would only be realized if you can find a vessel like this very cheap because it has to cost less than a pump.


Edit.... duh... CORNY KEGS! Wide enough mouth for ice, holds pressure.

That does sound like it would work.

You might find the flow from the cornie to be a bit restricted, but I bet you're already planning some evil-genius switching to a larger outflow, like putting a fitting with a QD through the lid of the cornie so you have a special "chiller lid" you can put on any available cornie when you need it.

I was actually thinking about just clamping the hose right on the post threads. I have a corny that leaks a tiny bit, but not enough to ruin it for this use. It won't flow like a wide open garden hose but with sub 40F water flowing out, you don't need much in a counterflow. I guess it's worth a shot.

So you come into the liquid side with city water and out the gas side going to the imersion chiller. Filling the thing up with ice before you start.

Interesting idea. flow through a Corny may not be very much. But it might be worth looking into.

That is a good idea. I have been avoiding buy a pump to recirculate through my IC but have not really run into a situation where I was really needing it and there is other stuff I would rather buy.

In the past I have chilled my wort to about 90-100F and then attach my IC to my cooler MLT and filled my MLT with ice then the hose in the top (like you described). I have to suck on the other end IC to start the flow and it is slow, but the temperature of the water coming out of the IC is still cool so I don't see the need to increase the flow rate.

My only concern is that you might have to stop the process and refill with ice and water if you are flowing too fast which is no big deal but could be a pain.

What about packing an old bottling bucket with ice, attaching the hose from the IC to the spigot, and then rig up a fitting on the lid. Seal the lid then turn on the hose, if you balance the flow from the hose there should be enough time to run through the ice and then through the IC like you said. Kind of like a hop back but with ice.

^ I don;t think a botteling bucket would hold the pressure from a city water supply.

Thats an awesome idea Bobby.....but this guys only like $30 from Harbor Freight



http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45014

Plus, for me there is one of these right next to my house



http://www.caller.com/news/2006/apr/04/machine-sells-soft-clean-ice/

Yeah, but you're not getting the full city pressure when the outflow is plumbed to a chiller. I don't know what the backpressure of the chiller would be but it's probably not enough to pop the lid on a bottling bucket if you carefully regulate the input flow. Putting something heavy on the lid like a cinderblock would help. Also, getting the bucket up at about the same height as the chiller would reduce head pressure.

I don't mind running out half the batch into the fermenter warm and then swapping over to the icewater for the second half. They'll combine to become 65F (ish) which is really what I'm shooting for. Man, I miss winter brewing.

Alamo, I wish I had such cheap ice access. I think they get like $3 for a 15lb bag over here.

what about running the city water in through the gas-in and taking from the dip tube for the outflow. Ice floats, so it shouldn't clog as easily, and heat rises, so the warmer incoming water will chill on it's way down through the ice.

If you could get those valves to flow at full capacity and hook a garden hose to the one (just make a hose with a garden fitting on one end and a cornie gas fitting on the other), it should push pretty well.... and heck, if you use some cheap hose to test it, that will be your only cost, since you can reuse the gas and beer ends on something else.

This makes entirely too much sense. I may have to try it!

you could even use the pressure relief valve on the lid to vent the air until the keg fills.

****, if you filled it with ice and water at the beginning of the brew session, or at least ice, you could set it in your chest freezer to keep it around 34 (won't melt much) until ready to use, or until you run insulated tubing out of the side of that beeotch and leave it in place in the freezer!

what i have done is used a 5 gallon bucket sat a coil in ice water then plumb to the immersion coil in the wort and trickled water through the coils. havent timed it but from boil to 100* was pretty quick. and that was just using a coil of plastic waterline 50*. i need to buy another copper coil for the chiller bucket and a better water valve since i have 100 psi at the tap.

but if a cornie can do it colder i just might have to try this. i have an old one that should be usable. since water is coming in the top and out the bottom it doesnt need to be sealed 100% just enough to flow. water valve on the entrance should allow for the smooth flow.

You can get a submersible pump for like 15-25 dollars... I cant possible see anything being easier and cheaper than that. All of this hooey about prechillers, getting fittings to go on cornies, siphoning, pressurizing with CO2/city, switching this and that. Just get a pump, a 5 gallon bucket full of ice water, a couple feet of hose and you're finished. No prechiller will ever be as efficient as pumping straight ice water through the coils.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BJP4UG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Thats like the cheapest one I found in 5 minutes that comes to $15.50 shipped. You're probably better off spending 25 bucks so you can get one with substantially more flow though (like 200-300gpm). Just keep the ice bucket at the same height as the chiller to cut back resistance.

Maybe something like this one...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0017JJMUW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I know it can be done but I'm thinking outside the box. You still have to feed the icebucket with the hose anyway to make up for the lost water so I'm thinking free energy.

I have a pump just like that Rio50 that came with my tile wetsaw. I pee harder than that pump but it has worked when the bucket is even with the chiller input.

sirsloop said:

You can get a submersible pump for like 15-25 dollars... I cant possible see anything being easier and cheaper than that. All of this hooey about prechillers, getting fittings to go on cornies, siphoning, pressurizing with CO2/city, switching this and that. Just get a pump, a 5 gallon bucket full of ice water, a couple feet of hose and you're finished. No prechiller will ever be as efficient as pumping straight ice water through the coils.

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Sirsloop-
I like your idea, sounds alot easier than trying to re-invent the wheel. All the other ideas sound like they would work but I'd rather just KISS

I'm all for being creative and thinking of new ways to do stuff, but in this case KISS seems to be the most logical.

This is an interesting idea. I'm thinking it may work with my CFC now that my tap water is like 70* and may go higher this summer. My other thought is just to add a post-chiller to the CFC to get lower temps.

When my wort was flowing out of the cfc at 78F this weekend, I thought post chiller but wasn't prepared with the ice. I know for a fact I'll need ice in some form on the next brew day.

remember to take a page from the restaurant world. Add salt to your prechiller when you set it up, it will bring the temp down and slow down the thawing in of the ice! Just thing old crank style Ice Cream makers!!!

John

Nwcw2001 said:

remember to take a page from the restaurant world. Add salt to your prechiller when you set it up, it will bring the temp down and slow down the thawing in of the ice! Just thing old crank style Ice Cream makers!!!

John

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thats how we rapid cool our barley pops when they need cooling fast. its what i did with my pre cooler line and the 5gallon bucket

I think the whole point of bobby's brain-game here is doing it without a pump.

that said, I did snag a nice steel base that will become a mobile chiller station for me once I know how high I need to mount it, etc. It'll use QD's for quickly snapping on to the well or switching to a pump in an ice-water drink cooler resting at it's base. The idea will be that I can roll it over and use it as needed, then clean it with the pumps when I do the rig cleaning and roll it away. I have the cfc made, and a base, just gotta keep working.

Bobby_M my $0.02
you live in a 2 story house bring ice bucket up there let drain from 2nd storey window using a hose and hose clamp to IC.

No pump needed

Cheers
BeerCanuck

Nwcw2001 said:

remember to take a page from the restaurant world. Add salt to your prechiller when you set it up, it will bring the temp down and slow down the thawing in of the ice! Just thing old crank style Ice Cream makers!!!

John

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maybe I'm thinking this backwards but and if so hope some one can explain. by adding salt you lower the freezing temp which in turns causes the ice to melt faster. I googled this before posting but it wasn't any help.

Here is the answer from "HowStuffWorks.com"

Ice forms when the temperature of water reaches 32 degrees Fahrenheit (0 degrees Celsius). When you add salt, that temperature drops: A 10-percent salt solution freezes at 20 F (-6 C), and a 20-percent solution freezes at 2 F (-16 C). On a roadway, this means that if you sprinkle salt on the ice, you can melt it. The salt dissolves into the liquid water in the ice and lowers its freezing point.

When you are making ice cream, the temperature around the ice cream mixture needs to be lower than 32 F if you want the mixture to freeze. Salt mixed with ice creates a brine that has a temperature lower than 32 F. When you add salt to the ice water, you lower the melting temperature of the ice down to 0 F or so. The brine is so cold that it easily freezes the ice cream mixture.


J~

The ice melts because salt water has a lower freezing temperature than regular ice water. The ice that is then at whatever the freezer temp was (say, 15º) can now become WATER at 15º.

EDIT: what he said.

Nwcw2001 said:

Here is the answer from "HowStuffWorks.com"

Ice forms when the temperature of water reaches 32 degrees Fahrenheit (0 degrees Celsius). When you add salt, that temperature drops: A 10-percent salt solution freezes at 20 F (-6 C), and a 20-percent solution freezes at 2 F (-16 C). On a roadway, this means that if you sprinkle salt on the ice, you can melt it. The salt dissolves into the liquid water in the ice and lowers its freezing point.

When you are making ice cream, the temperature around the ice cream mixture needs to be lower than 32 F if you want the mixture to freeze. Salt mixed with ice creates a brine that has a temperature lower than 32 F. When you add salt to the ice water, you lower the melting temperature of the ice down to 0 F or so. The brine is so cold that it easily freezes the ice cream mixture.


J~

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exactly, so the ice melts faster. In the application of this thread your melted ice although at a lower than freezing temp would flow out the cornie and you would be left with no ice in the cornie before you had a chance to cool all the wort. seem to me that if you took block ice and broke it into large peices that were small enough to fit through the opening the ice would last longer and still maintain a low water temp. If any one builds one of these I hope they try it both ways and post the results.

You are over thinking this IMHO. The way I use my CFC is to place the whole coil in a large cooler filled with ice and water then transfer the hot wort from my brew kettle into a corny. Buy an extra beer out fitting and just hook up your Co2 tank to the corny full of hot wort and the beer out to yout CFC. Set it at about 7-9 psi and let the Co2 push the beer through the CFC. I get as low as 45º into the fermenter. If you want pics, just let me know. Works great and takes VERY little Co2. When you are done, fill the corny back up with water, rinse the cfc out, then some star san and flush it again.

Wait... you put your CFC in an icebath or are you talking about an IC in an icebath for a sort of reverse immersion? I don't have any problem pumping my wort.. I have a March pump for that. I'm talking about getting pressurized icewater using city water pressure instead of the pond/aquarium pump idea.

I don't really want to defend this idea because it was just a spur of the moment thing. The more I think about it, the more I'm prone to use the pond pump because it doesn't involve building anything. If I can put an extra bulkhead on my bottling bucket just as a proof of concept, I might do it.

I might look into this with an extra bottling bucket since I don't have a pump. Currently I gravity drain through my CFC.

I'll probably end up using this idea, or do as the other guy mentioned and throw my whole CFC in a cooler with ice, the hose won't conduct heat very well to the water flowing through it, and then to the wort, but it should conduct some and all I really need is another 10 degree drop.

BTW, I successfully gravity drained icewater out of my bottling bucket into the CFC on two 5 gallonbatches and it was quite successful. It ran slow but it doesn't take much coolant when it's 30-40F.

The system would work, but i think you would potentially burn through a lot of ice if you aren't re-claiming the cold water coming out the other end, unless of course you are moving it through verrrrrrrrrry slowly(but that of course would lower the chiller efficiency). I switch to ice once i drop my temp to around 100-110 with the hose water. I noticed that even when pumping ice water through my IC with my $5 dinky pond pump i got at harbor freight the return water is still much colder than the hose water.

It depends highly on how fast you run the coolant. In a counterflow situation, the coolant initially encounters the coolest wort on the way out and reaches wort at boiling temp before it's exhausted. This usually means that it's well over 100F for the entire cycle if you're running the coolant such that you get a decent chill without too much water use. If your coolant temp is very close to your ideal wort temp, you have to run the water full speed. If you're using icewater, you can practically trickle it through to reach mid 60's.

In actually tried this a while back with a cornie keg, just clamped the hose onto the threads (leaving the dip tube in place) and ran the city water in the "Gas in". I filled it with ice and I think it would have worked well, but I melted all my ice before I was done chilling with the CFC (I was doing gravity through the CFC - 10' drop) I probably didn't have my flow rates well enough matched.

Bobby, how much ice water did it take to cool a 5 gallon batch running it out of your bottling bucket?

It would be really hard to pull data from this but I recirculated the wort back to the kettle using 75F tap water until the whole 5 gallon batch was down to 120F. Then I switched over to the hose coming from the bottling bucket and started running the wort into the fermenter. I tried matching the flows because I figured once 5 gallons were in the fermenter, the ice water would be gone. I ended up having to top off the icewater with about 2 gallons, but there was still ice to cool it. I had my bucket up on top of a 8ft ladder to get it to flow well though.

Frankly, it's more trouble than it's worth and a $30 pond pump is infinitely easier.

Thanks!

I'm debating between using a pond pump vs just getting it as low as I can using my water (probably can always get down to 75 or 80) and then put the carboy in the freezer/fermenting chamber and set it to my desired temp, come back in a couple hours and pitch. Since I tape the probe to the carboy it should drop the temp fairly quickly.

With good sanitation, I see no problem with your plan B. You might even save energy if you just leave the fermenter outside for a couple hours in this northern winter.

I was thinking about getting a cheap heater core for a car ($30) and draining from the kettle through the core which will be immersed in icewater, then into my fermenter. Any thoughts?

I'd be afraid of lead or other things leaching into the beer from the heater core.

bmbrewery said:

I was thinking about getting a cheap heater core for a car ($30) and draining from the kettle through the core which will be immersed in icewater, then into my fermenter. Any thoughts?

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EDIT: Conpewter beat me to it...so here's my other thought

Heh, I think this was one of my FIRST thoughts of using when I posted almost a year ago. WEIRD: I did post about this exactly one year ago. Weird man...

You could use a heater core as a prechiller like Bobby talks about in the beginning of the thread. The problem is that I think it'll be cheaper using the other 25' of copper you could buy online after using 25' for a primary chiller.