5.2 pH stabilizer... What's in it?

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julioohara

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Location
El Paso
Hi everyone,
I have used 5.2 pH stabilizer (I believe 5 star product) for a couple of all grain batches and the results are good (I still use a bit of salt additions to bring up good enzyme activity and yeast fermentation). My question is, what's in this product of 5.2 pH stabilizer? To my understanding I believe it has phosphates and that helps in withstanding pH changes throughout the mash (buffer solution), can someone fill out the rest of the ingredients list please?

Cheers to all :mug:
 
Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed.

Good manners prevented me from pressing him on its efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label but his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability.
 
Good manners prevented me from pressing him on its efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label but his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability.

The veritable 'smoking gun'. I'm not surprised.

I agree that its fortified phosphatic buffering would help damp out the variation caused by source water variability. It's still no excuse for a good brewer to not learn how to manage their water treatment.

PS: You are too much a gentleman.
 
i also bought the hype of this crap.
once I stopped using it and actually learned the most basic of basics in regard to water chemistry related to brewing then my efficiencies went up several points and my beers improved.

I am waiting for the water book from the yeast and hops series to come out on kindle format and I will get it.

I love that there is always a new level that you can take your brewing to.
 
This sounds like a very good answer and relates to the research I've been making on this product (I understand the products phosphate contents interact with the malts phosphate and stabilize the pH from raising or dropping, IF the pH near 5.9, to my understanding) however what interests me in your comment is that it was designed for a brewery with a constantly changing water report... I am from El Paso Texas and water wells here are constantly mixing with one another, we have hard water and the water chemical analysis keeps changing from season and from side of town, do you know which brewery this product was made for?
 
Tipped a few last night with the chemist who designed this product and was able to confirm that it is indeed a mix of phosphates (mono and di basic) that accounts for the presence of the malt phosphate. This is something I have long suspected and am pleased to have finally confirmed.

Good manners prevented me from pressing him on its efficacy and suitability relative to the statement on the label but his comments on it were basically that most brewers shouldn't use it/need it and that it was put together for a particular brewery that had variable source water and no desire to make any effort to track that variability.

This sounds like a very good answer and relates to the research I've been making on this product (I understand the products phosphate contents interact with the malts phosphate and stabilize the pH from raising or dropping, IF the pH near 5.9, to my understanding) however what interests me in your comment is that it was designed for a brewery with a constantly changing water report... I am from El Paso Texas and water wells here are constantly mixing with one another, we have hard water and the water chemical analysis keeps changing from season and from side of town, do you know which brewery this product was made for?
 
Thanks to all for the information, I had in mind that pH 5.2 would lock onto that pH and I use it because I am usually (theoretically) 0.1-0.2 higher in pH values from the recommended (Palmer) 5.4-5.6 values at room temp., so I add pH 5.2 as to "compensate" for the additional pH drop and buffering capacity of the product, however I don't think it really works this way from all the reading I've been doing here :-/ any comments on my opinion?
 
i also bought the hype of this crap.
once I stopped using it and actually learned the most basic of basics in regard to water chemistry related to brewing then my efficiencies went up several points and my beers improved.

I am waiting for the water book from the yeast and hops series to come out on kindle format and I will get it.

I love that there is always a new level that you can take your brewing to.

YES PastorofMuppets I love the way beer can be brought up to a new level, I too have learned some water chemistry and use software to calculate pH, RA and salt additions, etc however it's kinda hard to get an accurate water report from where Im from, so it's all based on an average I took! Is John Palmer's book on water out in print already? I am looking forward to getting the other (hops, yeast) as well :)
 
I had in mind that pH 5.2 would lock onto that pH and I use it because I am usually (theoretically) 0.1-0.2 higher in pH values from the recommended (Palmer) 5.4-5.6 values at room temp., so I add pH 5.2 as to "compensate" for the additional pH drop and buffering capacity of the product, however I don't think it really works this way from all the reading I've been doing here :-/ any comments on my opinion?

The chemistry of mash and brewing liquor can be quite complex because the malt contains monobasic and dibasic phosphate ions in a ratio determined by the pH of the mash and the 5.2 product contains these same ions in a ratio that is consistent with buffering at pH 5.95 - 6.00. Furthermore, if the liquor contains enough calcium that calcium can react with the phosphate causing precipitation of apatite and release of pH lowering hydrogen ions. Putting this latter effect aside for the moment it should be clear that a buffer (the product) designed for 5.95 and a buffer 'designed' for 5.75 (typical base malt DI mash pH) will, when mixed, result in phosphate buffering at a pH between 5.75 and 5.95. If the liquor contains so much bicarbonate that a mash made with it tends to come in at a pH of 6.5 or something like that then 5.2 will lower the pH somewhat but so will adding straight monobasic sodium phosphate or, better yet, phosphoric acid.

In addition to all of the above we note, as we have done many times before, that phosphate buffers are effective at pH's near 2.1 and 7.2 but not very effective at pH's near mash pH.

Given this is best to take the advice of its creator and not bother with it.
 
I used it in about 7 batches. My beers came out good, but I've since thrown it away and got my water analyzed and make simple water adjustments. I didn't use it for countless batches before I used it, and never needed it back then - so I'm not sure why I even started using it..
 
I used it in about 7 batches. My beers came out good, but I've since thrown it away and got my water analyzed and make simple water adjustments. I used it for countless batches before I used it, and never needed it back then - so I'm not sure why I even started using it..

I used it once, then I read the Water Chemistry Primer and then the water calculators made more sense. I don't know what to with the rest of the tub I bought.
 
The chemistry of mash and brewing liquor can be quite complex because the malt contains monobasic and dibasic phosphate ions in a ratio determined by the pH of the mash and the 5.2 product contains these same ions in a ratio that is consistent with buffering at pH 5.95 - 6.00. Furthermore, if the liquor contains enough calcium that calcium can react with the phosphate causing precipitation of apatite and release of pH lowering hydrogen ions. Putting this latter effect aside for the moment it should be clear that a buffer (the product) designed for 5.95 and a buffer 'designed' for 5.75 (typical base malt DI mash pH) will, when mixed, result in phosphate buffering at a pH between 5.75 and 5.95. If the liquor contains so much bicarbonate that a mash made with it tends to come in at a pH of 6.5 or something like that then 5.2 will lower the pH somewhat but so will adding straight monobasic sodium phosphate or, better yet, phosphoric acid.

In addition to all of the above we note, as we have done many times before, that phosphate buffers are effective at pH's near 2.1 and 7.2 but not very effective at pH's near mash pH.

Given this is best to take the advice of its creator and not bother with it.

Absolutely blown away....
 
The chemistry of mash and brewing liquor can be quite complex because the malt contains monobasic and dibasic phosphate ions in a ratio determined by the pH of the mash and the 5.2 product contains these same ions in a ratio that is consistent with buffering at pH 5.95 - 6.00. Furthermore, if the liquor contains enough calcium that calcium can react with the phosphate causing precipitation of apatite and release of pH lowering hydrogen ions. Putting this latter effect aside for the moment it should be clear that a buffer (the product) designed for 5.95 and a buffer 'designed' for 5.75 (typical base malt DI mash pH) will, when mixed, result in phosphate buffering at a pH between 5.75 and 5.95. If the liquor contains so much bicarbonate that a mash made with it tends to come in at a pH of 6.5 or something like that then 5.2 will lower the pH somewhat but so will adding straight monobasic sodium phosphate or, better yet, phosphoric acid.

In addition to all of the above we note, as we have done many times before, that phosphate buffers are effective at pH's near 2.1 and 7.2 but not very effective at pH's near mash pH.

Given this is best to take the advice of its creator and not bother with it.

Ajdelange, AMAZING explanation of water chemistry, I have a better understanding of how the product works from your comment and after reading this article as well: http://braukaiser.com/documents/effect_of_water_and_grist_on_mash_pH.pdf
Thanks to the article and water chemistry calculators (along with a water report) it will be easier to estimate a mash pH without using the product :rockin:
 
Motivated by #18 above I modified the spreadsheet described in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/mash-ph-prediction-control-442357/ to allow you to add a mix of mono- and di- phosphate. The spread sheet shows you in detail how mash pH is established and will, thus let you see how 5.2 works (or rather, doesn't work). Adding mono and di basic ions in the ratio 20:1::mono:di is a reasonable model of the composition of 5.2.
 
Motivated by #18 above I modified the spreadsheet described in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/mash-ph-prediction-control-442357/ to allow you to add a mix of mono- and di- phosphate. The spread sheet shows you in detail how mash pH is established and will, thus let you see how 5.2 works (or rather, doesn't work). Adding mono and di basic ions in the ratio 20:1::mono:di is a reasonable model of the composition of 5.2.

I did not get to see your spreadsheet because my computer does not allow it for some reason but I saw your powerpoint presentation on mash pH and how to predict it, pretty advanced chemistry skills youve got there :D thanks to molaritycalculator.com and Palmer's section and youtube video on water I can make sense of it lol! I see were your coming from when you say pH5.2 doesnt work though, Unless its at its specific buffering capacity :( glad my comment could motivate you!
 
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