Final pH of beer high

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brewmeister13

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The final pH of my beers are all coming out "high". I've had one finish as high as 5. The latest beer I brewed finished at 4.84 pH and I am looking for reasons why my pH is so high. The mash pH of this one was 5.34, so while I could drop that a touch, I don't think it's where my problem lies.

I brew all grain and use appropriately sized starters. I am also brewing with RO water and adding in the needed salts. I ferment at between 64 and 67 depending on the beer. What else can I look at to improve the finished product?
 
Are you acidifying your sparge water? (This is not needed for all styles)

More important, how do the finished beers taste? If they're good, I wouldn't fuss too much about post-fermentation pH.
 
Hey brewmeister, I don't any definitive answers for you but I am interested in the problem.

Most important question -Is this affecting your beer? I've read that beers with a high final pH seem dull, is that the case with your beer?

What sort of beers are you brewing, and what water profiles are using? Are you using brew'n water or another aid to calculate your expected mash pH? How and when are you testing mash pH? If you're using a pH meter, how often do you calibrate?
 
Are you acidifying your sparge water? (This is not needed for all styles)

I do not acidify sparge water with lactic or phosphoric, but I am adding salts to the water at the same rate as for mashing and my final runnings are always under 5.6 and usually closer to the mash pH.

More important, how do the finished beers taste? If they're good, I wouldn't fuss too much about post-fermentation pH.
Is this affecting your beer? I've read that beers with a high final pH seem dull, is that the case with your beer?

The final beers are good, but there is room for improvement (I'm a bit of a perfectionist). The beer that finished at 5.0 was an IPA that took 2nd BOS in a small local comp, but I talked to the judge and he said there was just something about it that was missing. The hops were great, the malt where it should be and it was really good, but there was something, he said, not quite there, but he couldn't pinpoint it. He did use the term delicate describing it (it was a 70+IBU beer). Looking at it delicate and dull could be close to me. I was thinking that it might need a bit more sulfate, but I'm not a huge fan of over the top sulfate.

What sort of beers are you brewing, and what water profiles are using? Are you using brew'n water or another aid to calculate your expected mash pH? How and when are you testing mash pH? If you're using a pH meter, how often do you calibrate?

I am brewing mostly pales, APA and various IPA's, but have done a few others. I use custom profiles when brewing, still trying to dial in the correct levels. The afore mentioned IPA was Ca=50 Mg=10 Na=5 SO4=105 Cl=45 and no bicarbonate. I've since raised the Ca to about 100 SO4 to 225 and Cl to 40. I am thinking of backing off the SO4 a bit though. I also use a touch of Aciduated Malt to lower pH. I use brew'n water and it is almost always .2 pH higher in estimation than actual, but it is very helpful. I measure my pH about 15 minutes into the mash and check after adjustments (usually don't have any) and at the end of the mash as well. I use a pH meter that I calibrate before each use and I lower the temp of the samples to 77 which is what I calibrate at as well.

With all of that said, I'm not sure if this is a mashing issue. My pH's are pretty good at these points, though I could be wrong. I'm wondering what other processes are at work that effect the final pH that I may be doing incorrectly.

Thanks guys for helping me out
 
I do not acidify sparge water with lactic or phosphoric, but I am adding salts to the water at the same rate as for mashing and my final runnings are always under 5.6 and usually closer to the mash pH.



The final beers are good, but there is room for improvement (I'm a bit of a perfectionist). The beer that finished at 5.0 was an IPA that took 2nd BOS in a small local comp, but I talked to the judge and he said there was just something about it that was missing. The hops were great, the malt where it should be and it was really good, but there was something, he said, not quite there, but he couldn't pinpoint it. He did use the term delicate describing it (it was a 70+IBU beer). Looking at it delicate and dull could be close to me. I was thinking that it might need a bit more sulfate, but I'm not a huge fan of over the top sulfate.



I am brewing mostly pales, APA and various IPA's, but have done a few others. I use custom profiles when brewing, still trying to dial in the correct levels. The afore mentioned IPA was Ca=50 Mg=10 Na=5 SO4=105 Cl=45 and no bicarbonate. I've since raised the Ca to about 100 SO4 to 225 and Cl to 40. I am thinking of backing off the SO4 a bit though. I also use a touch of Aciduated Malt to lower pH. I use brew'n water and it is almost always .2 pH higher in estimation than actual, but it is very helpful. I measure my pH about 15 minutes into the mash and check after adjustments (usually don't have any) and at the end of the mash as well. I use a pH meter that I calibrate before each use and I lower the temp of the samples to 77 which is what I calibrate at as well.

With all of that said, I'm not sure if this is a mashing issue. My pH's are pretty good at these points, though I could be wrong. I'm wondering what other processes are at work that effect the final pH that I may be doing incorrectly.

Boy that is a puzzler. My first guess would have been high Residual Alkalinity, but your description suggests just the opposite.

A couple other things I'd check:

Is your RO system is working properly? Maybe you have a bunch of bicarbonate you're not aware of. Have you tested with a TDS meter?

What's your boil off rate? Are you getting a strong, rolling boil?

I've only recently purchased a pH meter (more for mead than beer), and I haven't bothered to test the pH of my finished beer. I use RO and bru'n water as well; now I'll have to check and see where my beers are finishing out of curiosity.
 
Is your RO system is working properly? Maybe you have a bunch of bicarbonate you're not aware of. Have you tested with a TDS meter?

Mistakingly put RO, I actually buy distilled water to brew with, so no issue there.

What's your boil off rate? Are you getting a strong, rolling boil?

My boil off is around 1.25 gal an hour. It's actually pretty darn strong. That is 17% on a regular 5 gal batch.

I've only recently purchased a pH meter (more for mead than beer), and I haven't bothered to test the pH of my finished beer. I use RO and bru'n water as well; now I'll have to check and see where my beers are finishing out of curiosity.

I didn't think to check mine until I was looking into ways to improve my IPA and figured it was worth a look.
 
Optimum pH for Ale yeast is around 5.3, lager about 5.6. Optimum pH for alpha enzymes is about 5.6 pH and for beta 5.1 pH.. The pH will drop slightly during fermentation. The pH will rise slightly during the boil and drop after calcium is precipitated. Going below 4.7 pH or above 6 pH should be avoided. If your run off is 5.6 pH you're good to go....I tri-decoction everything that I brew. The pH of the main mash after mash out is 5-5.2, depending on what the length of the acid rest is and the time when I denature Phytase. I don't use high modified malt. I stop sparging when the pH rises to 5.8 pH.
 
Optimum pH for Ale yeast is around 5.3, lager about 5.6. Optimum pH for alpha enzymes is about 5.6 pH and for beta 5.1 pH.. The pH will drop slightly during fermentation. The pH will rise slightly during the boil and drop after calcium is precipitated. Going below 4.7 pH or above 6 pH should be avoided. If your run off is 5.6 pH you're good to go....I tri-decoction everything that I brew. The pH of the main mash after mash out is 5-5.2, depending on what the length of the acid rest is and the time when I denature Phytase. I don't use high modified malt. I stop sparging when the pH rises to 5.8 pH.
The OP was asking about pH in the finished beer (i.e., post-fermentation), not mash pH.

Back on topic...
After talking to a local commercial brewer recently, I decided to test the pH of my finished beer. To my surprise, my samples ranged from 4.43 to 4.92 with a calibrated meter. My mash pH is always well controlled. A bit of a head scratcher.

Brewed today and measured pH at three stages:
Mash: 5.28
Pre-boil: 5.29
Post-boil: 5.09
 
After talking to a local commercial brewer recently, I decided to test the pH of my finished beer. To my surprise, my samples ranged from 4.43 to 4.92 with a calibrated meter. My mash pH is always well controlled. A bit of a head scratcher.

Brewed today and measured pH at three stages:
Mash: 5.28
Pre-boil: 5.29
Post-boil: 5.09

A lot goes into the final pH. I remember seeing, and being told, that mash pH actually has little to do with final beer pH. I recently played around with aeration, giving each of 5 samples a different amount of O2. I found that the un-oxygenated beer was about .4-.5 pH higher than the highest oxygenated beer.
 
A lot goes into the final pH. I remember seeing, and being told, that mash pH actually has little to do with final beer pH. I recently played around with aeration, giving each of 5 samples a different amount of O2. I found that the un-oxygenated beer was about .4-.5 pH higher than the highest oxygenated beer.
I aerate all of my wort using 60 seconds of O2, so that's definitely not the problem.

I tested all 6 of my draft beers yesterday. All three that were fermented with Wyeast 1056 ended high (>4.7). All of the beers fermented with English yeast (1028 or 1968) or Irish ale (WLP004) finished lower (<4.5).

Perhaps 1056 is a lower acid producer.
 
I don't recall which book I read this in, they stated that mash ph should be measured at mash temps not 77f

pH should always be measured at room temp. There's nothing special about mash pH that would require special treatment. Also note that this thread is not about mash pH. It's about finishing beer pH.
 
I aerate all of my wort using 60 seconds of O2, so that's definitely not the problem.



I tested all 6 of my draft beers yesterday. All three that were fermented with Wyeast 1056 ended high (>4.7). All of the beers fermented with English yeast (1028 or 1968) or Irish ale (WLP004) finished lower (<4.5).



Perhaps 1056 is a lower acid producer.


The beer that showed significantly lower pH was actually given 3 minutes of O2 at .5LPM for only .75 gallons. With that said I don't think I would recommend oxygenating that much.

That's pretty good information on the different yeast strains. Thanks for sharing that. I just used WLP007 for the first time and will have to see if it displays the same characteristics.
 
That's pretty good information on the different yeast strains. Thanks for sharing that. I just used WLP007 for the first time and will have to see if it displays the same characteristics.
Here are the specific measurements:
  • Porter- 4.55 (Wyeast 1028)
  • Pale ale - 4.92 (1056)
  • Rye IPA - 4.78 (1056)
  • Oatmeal Stout - 4.43 (1968)
  • Irish ale - 4.18 (WLP004 - post-boil pH was 5.15)
  • "Snow Cone" IPA - 4.83 (1056)

In about 10-14 days, I'll have the final pH for the Irish stout I brewed yesterday (using WLP004) to see if it behaves similarly to the Irish ale above.

I'm planning to brew a pale ale next weekend using 1056. I'll keep good pH records and will report back on the results.
 
A couple new measurements to share:
  • Dry Stout - 4.01 (WLP004 - post-boil pH 5.09)
  • Pale Ale - 4.54 (Wyeast 1056 - post boil pH 5.28)

The WLP004 pH drop was quite consistent between both batches.

I measured pH of the pale ale 10 days after pitching. Previous measurements of beers fermented with 1056 were taken after at least 3 weeks. It's possible that pH was slightly lower in the previous batches, but rose after spending a few extra days in the carboy and then additional time on yeast sediment in the keg.
 
The 1056 data seems to align itself with Strong's interview with SN regarding their mash targets (5.1-5.3). That's quite low IMO, so perhaps they're compensating for low acid production. It would be nice to measure the final pH of SNPA for this discussion.

I am moving away from 1056 and going with WL007, so I anxious to see brewmeister's data.

In some ways, I wish I had a meter again and I would gather more data for us, but my relationship with meters is love/hate (mostly hate). Enjoying bliss for the moment...
 
I am moving away from 1056 and going with WL007, so I anxious to see brewmeister's data.
From WL's product description ("This yeast is similar to WLP002 in flavor profile, but is 10% more attenuative") I would expect WLP007 to be very fruity. Do you find that's not the case?

I've got a vial in my fridge now. I'm planning to brew a Barley Wine or Imperial Stout with it.
 
Never used WL007 before and just picked it up last night. Got a hefe on deck before I get to it...

KC, do/did you make starters? I rarely did as my LHBS always had really fresh 1056 but will need to since the WL is a few months old. Wonder if there could be a correlation to more yeast dropping pH further?
 
A couple new measurements to share:
  • Dry Stout - 4.01 (WLP004 - post-boil pH 5.09)
  • Pale Ale - 4.54 (Wyeast 1056 - post boil pH 5.28)

The WLP004 pH drop was quite consistent between both batches.

I measured pH of the pale ale 10 days after pitching. Previous measurements of beers fermented with 1056 were taken after at least 3 weeks. It's possible that pH was slightly lower in the previous batches, but rose after spending a few extra days in the carboy and then additional time on yeast sediment in the keg.

Awesome. I'll have to go back through all of my records and try to post what I have. Thanks KC.

I am moving away from 1056 and going with WL007, so I anxious to see brewmeister's data.

It may be a little while yet. The beer I brewed with WLP007 was an extremely big beer, 1.135, and is still fermenting away 3 weeks later. Next time I take a hydro sample though, probably in a week or so, I'll check the pH and report back with it.
 
Never used WL007 before and just picked it up last night. Got a hefe on deck before I get to it...
It's going to be a while for me too. I've got 2-3 batches lined up before I get to my barleywine or imperial stout.

KC, do/did you make starters? I rarely did as my LHBS always had really fresh 1056 but will need to since the WL is a few months old. Wonder if there could be a correlation to more yeast dropping pH further?
I always make a starter, so I don't think that's a factor in my case (comparing results for my own batches).

I brewed a batch recently using WLP060, which is a blend of WLP001 and two other strains that lend slight lager-like characteristics. I assume WLP001 would behave similarly to 1056. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the additional strains affect finished pH. Should be able to measure that in the next couple days.
 
I'm going to compile this information and start a thread over in the yeast section. I figured it would make it easier to find this info and maybe help more people. Keep the good results comming:mug:
 

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