Designing my first Munich Helles

My whole family loves this style, so I thought I'd put something together that I can call my own.

Thoughts on using .5 # of Cara-Pils? How much is too much Melanoidin? What about the hops?

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Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.042 SG
Estimated Color: 4.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item % or IBU
14.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) 84.85 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) 12.12 %
0.50 lb Melanoidin Malt (20.0 SRM) 3.03 %

1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) 16.2 IBU

1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830)

Considering single infusion @ around 150-151F.

I would do away with the melanoiden malt and attempt the Dreimaischverfahren.

Dreimaischverfahren

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I'm guessing this means a decoction?

I've been meaning to try one, so maybe I'll just do a single rest @ 150F and pull a single decoction to mash out. Would that make much of a difference you think?

Yeah it's a traditional triple decoction. I have never made a Helles but I have been researching the style pretty heavily in preperation to make one and it appears to be the only pale German style to always use a triple decoction. I have never gotten much flavor out of singles, but you could give it a shot.

Go for the whole enchilada, man. Do a double decoction with a beta rest, alpha rest, and mashout. You'll be very happy you did. If you want to do a protein rest, you can, but I recommend using an infusion to step up from protein to beta, so that your protein rest doesn't go too long. Make your protein rest thick (water/grain about 1), and you can get your ratio on the beta rest up to as high as 1.5, especially with the double decoction to come.

I highly, highly, highly recommend reading Bavarian Helles, by Dornbusch. If you want to get into any sort of Bavarian style, it'll be the best $10 you can spend. I recommend buying it, rather than borrowing it, as it will be a valuable resource on your bookshelf. Horst has some strong opinions about certain things, but the information in those pages is terrific.

Carapils is fine, but you be careful with it. You won't need the melanoidin, if you do the decoction. Keep your hops noble, and remember that Helles isn't about the hops. It's about the balance and grain character.


TL

Thanks guys!

I've been meaning to get some brewing books, so I'll definitely have to order that one.

Keep your hops noble

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Would you ditch the Northern Brewer then? I was originally going to go w/ Tettnang or Saaz, but since Helles uses mostly bittering additions (is this correct?) I figured subbing wouldn't be a huge huge deal.

97.5% German Pilsener malt, 2.5% Cara-pils, for an OG of around 1.048
Do a Hochkurz step-mash (~141°F for ~45 min., 158°F for ~30 min, mash-out)... either decoction or step-temp have both done well for me. In fact, the taste difference between these has not been noticeable for me.
Boil 90 min.
21 IBUs any German noble-type hop at 60 min.
I like to add a smidge of hops at flame-out to give it a touch of aroma.

Cool it as cold as you can get it before pitching... preferrably ~50°F.
Pitch 2 packets (per ~5 gallons) of Saflager W-34/70, rehydrated and cooled down to ~50°F.
Ferment at 48-50°F, do diacetyl rest if you want to after the krausen starts to fall, slowly cool down to near lagering temps, rack to secondary, lager for 6 weeks, bottle or keg.

I have Dornbusch's book and have read it several times. IMO, there is some misinformation in there, but it's a good read and a good reference. Just don't take every detail as ultimate authority on the style.

I would skip any sort of decoction, put your energy into pitching an enourmous amount of yeast, at the proper temperature. You didn't mention any of this in your recipe, and these are the most important details.

The dried saflager W 34/70 is the same as the liquid yeast you mentioned, but two packets for 5 gallons is not enough IMO. If you go with the pitching rate recommended by Fermentis for 9C you're looking at more like 5 packets. I've used two packets before and the beer tasted like an ale. When I repitched the yeast, it was as clean as a whistle, and one of the best lagers i've brewed.

That said, the 830 makes a very good beer too, it's just making a big enough starter that's a PITA.

Recipe looks good apart from that, I would maybe tone down the Munich just a little though. Also the OG is very low, this will be a very light tasting Helles.

The dried saflager W 34/70 is the same as the liquid yeast you mentioned

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Cool I was wondering if this was the case. I <3 dry yeast, so I'll almost certainly go that route. Mr Malty is showing three 11.5g packets. You think that would be enough? OG isn't that high.

Also the OG is very low, this will be a very light tasting Helles.

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Yeah this was kind of the idea because this beer will be for a lot of BMC drinkers too, but we'll see...I might bump it up anyways.

It depends on your ferment temp, check the spec sheet. I'm not entirely convinced by mrmalty's calculator when it comes to dried yeast as it doesn't take into account temperature (although I always refer to it for liquid starters).

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Saflager_W-3470_HB.pdf

TexLaw said:

I highly, highly, highly recommend reading Bavarian Helles, by Dornbusch. If you want to get into any sort of Bavarian style, it'll be the best $10 you can spend. I recommend buying it, rather than borrowing it, as it will be a valuable resource on your bookshelf. Horst has some strong opinions about certain things, but the information in those pages is terrific.
TL

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I agree on this. He recommends a 20:20:20min. mash at 122:148:158*F (temps need to be double checked, times are correct). I used this for a bunch of lagers last winter (direct fired, not decocted) and this worked great for a Helles (and Kolsch too), but had TOO MUCH body/richness for the German Pilsners. This year for the Pilsners I'm going to keep the same temps, but do 20:40:10min.

Hmmm...a lot of great info in here. Thanks a bunch everyone.

I was starting to lean towards a double decoction, but I do have the ability to do a step mash (never done one though)...so I might try that instead if yall have been fairly happy w/ your results.

I'm thinking of skipping the protein rest though. Or maybe just do a short one? After that, it seems the consensus is 148F/158F no?

Despite what Dornbusch says, mash rest temps are malt-specific, not style-specific. A full-blown protein rest with most modern German pilsener malt has the potential to reduce body and foam stability. With a rest in the low to mid 140s°F (~45 min) and a rest at 158°F (~30 min.), you reduce enough long-chain proteins and not too much shorter-chain proteins while converting starches to a good balance of fermentable and unfermentable sugars.

I've done 3 Helles with similar recipes and rests as menschmaschine, and have been very happy with the results each time. The one time I tried the recipe with just a single infusion at 150F, I didn't get quite the same attenuation (77% vs 80%), but it was still a very tasty beer.
+1 to using a huge starter. I typically do 1 gallon for a 1.048 Helles, and pitch it at 50F.

Also, I found this page very helpful for understanding decoctions - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction#Hochkurz_Double_Decoction

I've found a decoction is great, but if you don't wanna put the time & effort, melanoidin malt gets you in the same ballpark, FWIW.

Well, the closer I get to brewing the more I'm shying away from doing a decoction. I still might give it a try, but I'd really hate to screw up a 10g batch.

If I do end up going w/ a single infusion, would you guys still omit the melanoidin? If not, how much would you use?

With a single infusion i would use the melanoidin malt. I've done both decoction and melanoidin and, to me, the decoction route wasn't worth the time and effort for the same effect.

I've read testimony from some "expert pallates" that says melanoidin is a decent substitute for a decoction, and only when two brews are side-by-side would you be able to determine which one has got one or the other.

As far as amounts, I don't go more than 10% of the grist.

cactusgarrett said:

With a single infusion i would use the melanoidin malt. I've done both decoction and melanoidin and, to me, the decoction route wasn't worth the time and effort for the same effect.

I've read testimony from some "expert pallates" that says melanoidin is a decent substitute for a decoction, and only when two brews are side-by-side would you be able to determine which one has got one or the other.

As far as amounts, I don't go more than 10% of the grist.

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I agree that the decoction is an extra effort.
I consider it fun (especially in the winter cold) to be spending some time outdoors, hovering over the hot brewpot with friends and brew. I consider it less fun in the summer I also see that cactusgarrett is from WI, and he would consider Portland as "cold"

Also, I've found that decoction helps my efficiency 7-12%, which I find quite useful for very large grainbills.

CharlosCarlies said:

My whole family loves this style, so I thought I'd put something together that I can call my own.

Thoughts on using .5 # of Cara-Pils? How much is too much Melanoidin? What about the hops?

--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.042 SG
Estimated Color: 4.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item % or IBU
14.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) 84.85 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) 12.12 %
0.50 lb Melanoidin Malt (20.0 SRM) 3.03 %

1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) 16.2 IBU

1 Pkgs German Lager (White Labs #WLP830)

Considering single infusion @ around 150-151F.

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I would leave it as is but just add a little hop flavor towards the end, Your recipe looks like mine that the highest judge in the country judge, Gordon Strong Master 5. I like it just add some late hops just a touch.

Alright so I'm finally ordering all the grain for this when I realize that the Saflager is $5-6 a pack. According to Fermentis, I need to pitch ~5 packs for an 11g batch. Now the pitch rate itself doesn't sound off to me, but $30 worth of yeast is crazy! I've always used dry yeast because it's cheap and easy and I'm looking at spending more on yeast than grain/hops for this beer.

Should I go liquid for this one and just build a HUGE starter? If so, how big is big enough?

Yes, liquid yeast + large starter. Doesn't Mr. Malty suggest a starter volume?

phasedweasel said:

Yes, liquid yeast + large starter. Doesn't Mr. Malty suggest a starter volume?

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Yeah and I will check that, but it seems he's pretty off w/ dry yeast at least...so I'm not totally sure how much stock to put in the calculator.

I got a slightly larger than 2L starter for two month old liquid lager yeast and intermittent shaking on the starter for a 5 gallon batch. That sounds about right.

Alright so I ditched the Munich altogether and decided on:

90% Pils
5% Melanoidin (not going to try the decoction this time)
5% Cara-pils

~1.048 OG

Spalt @ 60 min to reach 17 IBU's w/ a dash at flame-out.

Thoughts before I order?

My .02: ease up on the specialty malt and cut the melonoidin and CaraPils to 2-3% each or just go with 3% CaraPils and ditch the melanoidin. I don't think that melanoidin is an appropriate sub for decoction mashing or that a Helles should have anything beyond Pils malt in the base. 17 IBUs is OK but just a bit more, maybe 22, would be better.

BigEd said:

My .02: ease up on the specialty malt and cut the melonoidin and CaraPils to 2-3% each or just go with 3% CaraPils and ditch the melanoidin. I don't think that melanoidin is an appropriate sub for decoction mashing or that a Helles should have anything beyond Pils malt in the base. 17 IBUs is OK but just a bit more, maybe 22, would be better.

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Thanks Ed. I've been meaning to try out melanoidin just for the experience, so I might still use it but I'll probably cut the amount in half.