Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

makisupa said:

Chill your saison to 85 degrees
Ferment at 92 degrees for three weeks
Age at 55 degrees for two weeks
Carbonate
DONE!

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This is the advice to take with this yeast. It's Dupont's yeast! You can't *****foot around with it. Pitch hot, ferment hotter. It's not going to bite. But, it's the only way to get those crazy flavors.

That, or just finish it off with 3711 once you stall.

06/28 update:
Brewed two separate 5 gallon recipes on 06/09 less than three weeks ago. Created a single 2L starter and split it between my two batches.
Pitched at 85 and placed in 85 degree fermentation chamber.
4 days later increased temp to 90 in chamber.
Less than three weeks later both batches are below 1.010.
I am going to let them drop a little more then keg and cold crash when space in my keezer frees up. They can condition there while they carb up.

Just wanted to share my success story, the only time I agitated the wort was when I dropped sugar water in one of the car boys a couple of days into fermentation

PricePeeler said:

06/28 update:
Brewed two separate 5 gallon recipes on 06/09 less than three weeks ago. Created a single 2L starter and split it between my two batches.
Pitched at 85 and placed in 85 degree fermentation chamber.
4 days later increased temp to 90 in chamber.
Less than three weeks later both batches are below 1.010.
I am going to let them drop a little more then keg and cold crash when space in my keezer frees up. They can condition there while they carb up.

Just wanted to share my success story, the only time I agitated the wort was when I dropped sugar water in one of the car boys a couple of days into fermentation

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7/3 update:
Both batches are below 1.005.!
Will be cold crashing batches in fermenter until I have room in the keezer. I have some friends coming over to empty a couple of kegs for me.

Is anyone opposed to rousing this yeast, or do most find that it only helps? I've seen it mentioned a few times. To me though, I can't stop thinking about the oxigenation taking place when you swirl the carboy. I'm 27 days into fermentation, and I'm debating back and forth with myself: to rouse, or not to rouse.

I pitched at 88* into 1.063 wort. I had a krausen quickly, and raised it 1 degree per day to 92*, and it's been there since. I took my first reading at day 17, it read about 1.019, past the hump. At day 23 it was about 1.016. Two days after that, it reads a notch lower in brix, but SG adjustments still put it at 1.016.

There is airlock activity about every 24 seconds at the moment. I feel the urge to rouse the yeast, but then I feel like that might just be impatience rearing its ugly head. If its creeping along, is it better to just let it do its own thing?

Definitely rouse. I attach my co2 hose to a sanitized racking cane to push co2 to the bottom of the carboy. This is more effective than swirling and it pushes any o2 out of the carboy since you are bubbling co2 up from the bottom.

co2 rousing and high temp, 85-90 was what worked for me.

Indeed. 1 bubble/24s is not bad. It'll continue to drop. Co2 rouse is a good one. Rotating the carboy back and forth won't oxygenate the wort as the only air in the carboy is co2 and you won't be sloshing it around.

If it stalls, just add 3711 and ta-da!

ne0t0ky0 said:

Definitely rouse. I attach my co2 hose to a sanitized racking cane to push co2 to the bottom of the carboy. This is more effective than swirling and it pushes any o2 out of the carboy since you are bubbling co2 up from the bottom.

co2 rousing and high temp, 85-90 was what worked for me.

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That's a great idea, does the job, but without aerating. Unfortunately, I don't have CO2. The only options for me, that I can think of, are A) swirl the carboy, or B) sanitize something like my racking cane and stir the cake up. A seems like it would do the best job getting the yeast into suspension, but at the expense of aeration. For that reason I like B better, but I don't expect that it will be exceedingly effective.

Man, this yeast is self-righteous. It’s like a self-absorbed date. She’s gonna make you wait for her while she gets ready, doesn’t care if you have reservations.

I’m 49 days after pitching, and it’s still eking along. I’ve been taking periodic refractometer readings along the way. At day 17, I approximated almost 75% attenuation. I went from 1.063 to 1.016. After that, it’s just been crawling, but still attenuating. At day 33, I was at about 81% attenuation, 82% at day 44, 84% at day 47. The airlock keeps slow steady activity, a burp about every 30-45 seconds, and every time I check the gravity, it’s dropped, but just by a hair at a time.

As much as I’d like to bottle this, I know it’s against my better judgment to bottle without steady gravity readings. By now it looks like I’m going to be at least 60 days on primary! Nonetheless, I have to say it’s worth it. Every test I’ve taken has tasted amazing. It has a smooth fruit and mellow hoppy flavor up front, balanced with a crisp, dry spice in the back. Wyeast says that it will have a mildly acidic finish that benefits from elevated fermentation temperatures. In the later samples that I’ve taken, a very pleasing acidic finish has developed which is getting more prominent as it continues to dry out.

If you see any signs of activity, why mess with it. Let the yeast do their thing and keep the temp at 90ish.
After reading everyone's experiences, not sure how I got lucky enough to have mine finish in 4 weeks undisturbed. I pitched 1 liter, started at 85 F, and ramped up to 90.

Thoughts? Let's get to the bottom of this !!!

My second batch on 3724. I used the yeast left from my first batch. 1.050 to 1.005 in 15 days, which is not bad. Temp ranged from 68F to 78F so far. First 72 hours were at 68F.

I will let the temp rise a little bit, probably wait 7 days more at 80-85F and dry hop for 7 more days at 68F again. Then I will cold crash for 3 days.

Cheers everyone!

Oups.. my reading correction was off. I now have :

1.005 @ 78 F august 26th (corrected is 1.007)
1.003 @ 80 F august 31st (corrected is 1.005)
1.002 @ 80 F september 9th (corrected is 1.004)

Still bubbling every 4-5 min or so @80F.

Should I rack ?

Used 3724 for the first time and after reading this thread I was nervous how it would come out. My OG was 1.055 and I started fermentation out at 70 degrees. 24 hours later raised the temp to 75, another 24 hours raised up to 80, the next day raised it to 85 for 3 days. At the end of the first week it was at 1.020 so I was really pleased I did not get the infamous 1.030 stall. Raised it up to 90 and checked it 7 days later and it was at 1.008. Kept it at 90 for another week and it finished at 1.001! 98% apparent attenuation. Gravity sample tasted pretty good.

Cold crashing at 32 degrees for a two weeks and then re-ferment in the bottle to 3.2 vols.

First sampling from bottle, this beer is very dry!

However there is something I don't like about it now. It's way too much spicy. Cloves and pepper from the yeast are not balanced and way to high. Feels almost like astringent.

I think it will mellow over time so I'll wait a month or two before tasting again.

Have you guys experienced something similar?

Just read through the entire thread and wanted to share my experience with what is now my favorite yeast.

I've used 3724 three times now. 1st & 2nd brews stalled for roughly 2 weeks and finished below 1.005 starting from 1.060 after 5 or 6 weeks at 80*f +.

The 3rd batch, a 5.5 batch brewed Sat Nov 8th, 2013, fermented with a 1.5 L starter using washed yeast from a previous batch. Pitched at 80*f and set my controller to ferment at 95*f from the start. My OG was 1.049 and three days later my SG is 1.006.

Pitch healthy yeast hot and ferment even hotter...

Great info Mario! Wish I would have found this thread before brewing my Belgian IPA on 11/2. OG was 1.058, pitched 1.6l starter at 70 and then ramped temp up gradually to 88. Checked at 3 weeks and it was only at 1.023 Gave it a good swirl and it started chugging away w/ CO2 bubbling out of the airlock every 15-20 seconds ever since. Hoping it will be done in another week. Next time I'll ferment it at 95 from the get go.

MNBrewDad said:

Next time I'll ferment it at 95 from the get go.

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This is unnecessary and really a mistake if you're aiming for best flavor development. Even though this strain can be pushed to high temps, it is best to do it towards the end of fermentation to promote attenuation. Cranking it up that high that early will lead to fusels and off-flavors, even with this forgiving strain. Great success can be found with this yeast using the proper pitch rate, pure oxygen, and holding the temperature near 68-70F for the first 2-3 days. The key to getting full attenuation is adding simple sugar (8-16oz per 5gal) at this point and raising the temperature about 2F every 12 hours until you get to about 80-82F, and holding there until FG, which should be < 1.006 in approximately 7-10 days.

g-star said:

This is unnecessary and really a mistake if you're aiming for best flavor development. Even though this strain can be pushed to high temps, it is best to do it towards the end of fermentation to promote attenuation. Cranking it up that high that early will lead to fusels and off-flavors, even with this forgiving strain. Great success can be found with this yeast using the proper pitch rate, pure oxygen, and holding the temperature near 68-70F for the first 2-3 days. The key to getting full attenuation is adding simple sugar (8-16oz per 5gal) at this point and raising the temperature about 2F every 12 hours until you get to about 80-82F, and holding there until FG, which should be < 1.006 in approximately 7-10 days.

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That is contrary to the advice from Wyeast;
"What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling. Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc."

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.5;wap2

highgravitybacon said:

That is contrary to the advice from Wyeast;
"What we have found here with 3724 is if you start and maintain the fermentation temp at 90oF, the fermentation will progress and complete without stalling. Anything short of that, temperature wise, will lead to a stuck and slow final fermentation.

Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc."

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=16134.5;wap2

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The yeast suppliers will also tell you that one smack pack or vial is enough yeast for any wort < 1.060, and to start your lager fermentations at 75F. That doesn't mean it is optimal practice.

I'm telling you what I've learned from experience...if you pitch enough yeast, oxygenate with pure O2, and use a simple sugar addition after high krausen, you won't need to push the temps that high. I've done it both ways with this strain, and the restrained temp approach gives the best results in terms of flavor, in my own personal opinion and via feedback/scoring that I've received through BJCP competitions.

The author of Farmhouse Ales also suggests those temps for 3724. And DuPont uses those temps as well.

Your pitch temp does make a difference. I've found that chilling to 70, pitching, and free rising into the 90's is a good method. It's safe and gets the job done FAST (3 day fermentation!). One caveat though, be careful when brewing a higher abv saison. That is when pitching at high temps and holding can go haywire. Above %6.5, I'll pitch low and slowly climb.

I've been really happy using high temps with saison I and III from White Labs. Wyeast Farmhouse Ale gets very fusel-y up that high.

Update to my 11/28 post: Temp corrected FG for my extract Belgian IPA ended up at 1.005 after holding at 88 degrees for the last three weeks. It will be six weeks total in the primary fermenter when I bottle on Saturday and is starting to taste pretty good despite finishing so dry. Definitely the oddest strain I've used yet but it also has the highest attenuation (~91% apparent). Patience is key if starting the ferment low. The recipe I used included Belgian Candi Sugar and I oxygenated the wort with pure O2 prior to pictching my starter. If I made the same recipe again I would try waiting and adding the sugar after high krausen as you suggest g-star.

i have been emailing with a tech at wyeast, and they wrote to me:

"The only trick we know so far to get 3724 to finish w/o stalling is running it at 90oF from the start."

sweetcell said:

i have been emailing with a tech at wyeast, and they wrote to me:

"The only trick we know so far to get 3724 to finish w/o stalling is running it at 90oF from the start."

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I have had success starting this strain around 68F, letting it go for about 48hrs, then adding simple sugar (as a syrup) once activity showed the first signs of slowing. At this point, I ramp the temp up 2F/day to 80F and hold. Beer usually finishes around 1.004 - 1.006.

YMMV.

I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.

Looks like someone's romancing their bucket... You've got your priorities straight!

I pitch 3724 at 74 into 1.065 O.G. and immediately start to ramp it 2 degrees every 8 hours until it hits 90. Then I leave it for weeks... Many weeks. It does stall at 1.035, exactly as predicted, but I usually finish at 0.998-1.000. My recipe does have 3lbs of honey for 10 gallons.

Mine is stuck at 1.035 after three and a half weeks. Thanks to this thread I didn't panic. Even though it's well into the 80s here during the day and sometimes hits the 90s, I've put one of those plant pot heating mats under the vessel and given it a little swirl. Every so often it gives me a little bubble to keep the faith

This thread is great, I just fermented my first beer with 3724 and I went from 1.047 to 1.008 in 18 days by pitching at ~75F and bringing the fermentation temperature to 90 degrees a couple degrees at a time by about the fifth day. I have been sitting at 1.008 for about five days and my expected FG is 1.007, so I am about to call it done!

I split my 7.5-gal batch and added dark candi syrup to half at about 6 days(~1.020) and the fermentation kicked up a bit.

What do you guys think, am I done?


Day.........Temp............SG
0.............80...............1.064
9.............85.................1.026 Temp increased to 85
33............85...............1.014
42............85..............1.011-1.012 Noticeably less yeast in suspension

I'm fermenting in a heated water bath so temp control is pretty good. The temps listed are water temps, independent measurement from the thermostat.

Grain Bill (Partial Mash)

3# DME
0.75# Honey

1.5# Vienna
0.5# Flaked Wheat
0.5# Flaked Oats
3# German Pilsner

Mash at 148F, 1.25 qt/lb for 1 hour with 170 F mash out, batch sparge.

I haven't done any temp corrections on the gravity measurement but would only account for a ~.002 difference. I see people getting much lower FG with this yeast.

Could the flaked grains or Vienna cause lower attenuation? I am at ~83% AA which above the range given by wyeast for this beer.

Trying to decide if I should bottle or now or wait.

Thanks

T-Ross, have you taken other readings and those are the generalized milestones, or are those stand-alone readings? With this yeast, I'd wait until you verify the same gravity over multiple days. In my experience, it did much like yours and dropped into the twenties relatively fast and then crawled into the single digits, with just a point change over a few days at a time. If yours has been at 1.011 fir a while, you're probably good, but if that's you're only reading at 1.011, wait a few days and you might see it's still slowly attenuating.

T-Ross, you can either to wait it out and feel free to push the temp into the 90s, or you can resuspend the yeast. I do this by blowing co2 through my racking cane into the carboy. This helps a lot with the high temp to have it finish quicker.

Either way, it is worth the wait.

Much easier to add a second yeast. Saison II, French Saison, Belle Saison, etc. Done in two weeks with all the same flavor.

In going to give the higher temp a try. I'll go to around 90 for a week to see what that does.

I don't have CO2 but I'll rock the carboy a bit to get things stirred up.

What a fun thread! I was planning on having my SMaSH of Pilsner and Tettnang done in about 3 weeks using this yeast....Looks like it's not going to be done quite so early!

I'm just really happy to have found this thread as I had no idea that this yeast has given so many people so much trouble.

I just brewed a SMaSH of pils and saaz. Pitched pretty hot at 80ish. Now sitting at 85. Going up to 90 in a few days, maybe a week. It already smells awesome.

Brewed a SMASH saison with about 5% abv using 3724. Pitched at 80f and fermented at 90f and the beer went down to 1.004 in about 2 weeks. Left on yeast for another week and bottled. No esters or undesirable flavors; just a slight peppery note and the crispy, dryness of a Belgian yeast. Very nice.

I'd not hesitate to use this yeast again. Temp control is key and the fact that I pitched the yeast while it was actively fermenting in a 2L starter probably helped it get going as well.

The first time I used this yeast (well, the White Labs version WLP565), I rigged an aquarium heater, pump and bucket to get it to 90° and it still crapped out at 1.030.

I recently tried again. I pitched a slightly larger starter and aerated with 90 seconds of pure O2. I let it free rise to 75° from a pitching temp of 65°. I held it at 75° for 3 weeks without even opening the lid on the chest freezer. No yeast rousing, no messing with it. Recipe contained all malt and no simple sugars. Mash temp was 149°; accidentally overshot by 1°. Boil was 90 minutes due to using Pilsner malt.

OG: 1.060
FG: 1.005

Just to complicate it further, I pitched a single vial of Brett B and let it sit 6 months. New final gravity was 1.003. I also split the batch and dry hopped 2.5 gallons with 1/4oz of Citra. Both versions are fantastic. The dry hopped one makes my IPA loving guests happy and the regular is enjoyed by pretty much everyone else.

Sorry if this screws up anyone's statistics on what works for this yeast and what doesn't...

Remmy said:

I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.
I will not let 3724 disappoint.

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Very funny pic. Add a couple of wine glasses and a bear rug and you've got yourself a nice evening.

As for OT content, I've given up using this yeast on its own. I did a follow up pitch of 3711 on my last batch. Less hassle and tastes fantastic.

tagz said:

As for OT content, I've given up using this yeast on its own. I did a follow up pitch of 3711 on my last batch. Less hassle and tastes fantastic.

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yup. that's my MO with this strain. i'm just not patient enough. i feel i get most of not all of the flavor contribution from this yeast in that initial burst. 3711 gives me the dryness i'm looking for much faster and i don't need to use as much energy.

Have you ever harvested the mixed (3724/3711) cake afterward and used that on a batch?

tagz said:

Have you ever harvested the mixed (3724/3711) cake afterward and used that on a batch?

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yup. works great. you don't get quite as much 3724 contribution but it's definitely still there. very nice mixed culture combo.