My Pliny clone results

So I brewed a pliny clone found on the internet (a pdf at beerdujour) which I believe is vinny's recipe.

It was a blast to make, I really felt like I was crafting a beer on this one. I have had Pliny in the past - I spent a few months in the Bay Area for work and actually made it out to Russian River at one point - so I know what I was shooting for.

So when I finally had it kegged and carbed, it was bitter beyond bitter. So I'm asking for a little help in diagnosing where I might have gone wrong.

Looking back at my process,

The Mash:
- I fell a full 10 points shy of the 1070 recommended OG! I know the hop charts you see specify the recommended IBU's as a function of OG, so this alone could count for all of it. In a feeble attempt to make up some of this OG, I added an additional 12 oz (boiled, cooled) dextrose to my 5G batch to attempt to make up some of the ABV.

Hop AA's:
- I didn't adjust hop quantities according to exact alpha acids - at least for my bittering additions - but after I went back and looked at my hop AA's, they were withing 0.1% of the recipe assumptions. So I think I'm good there

Also, I don't think it makes much of a difference to adjust for the later dry hopping additions - they aren't contributing bitterness to the beer anyways.

I think I'm OK here.

Dry Hopping:

- I dry hopped the minimum specified time, 12 days for first dry hop, then 5 days second dry hop. I put the hops in hop bags since they were mostly pellets, but I didn't start my first dry hop addition for a full couple weeks, and my first dry hop addition basically floated on top of the beer like a raft - i have a hard time believing i extracted much aroma from these hops. The second addition I used a shot glass to force it to sink.

- I didn't start the DH process until well after fermentation had finished. I think when I do this again, I'll start the dry hop mid-fermentation to ensure the yeast is moving the wort through the hops. I'll also add a shot glass to both hop bags to get them to sink.

This area is suspect.

sorry for the length of this post, but I appriciate any feedback anyone can give me on this.

Thanks

I'll ask the obvious question... how long did you boil and when your boil was done how long before your temp was below 175?

For what it is worth, a local homebrewer who I know that has been brewing for a decade or so said that he had to cut back the hops on his Pliny clone. I am not sure which recipe he followed, or how much he cut the hops.

I have brewed the Pliny clone several times and it always comes out spot on. There has to have been something in your process. Are you sure the hops were weighed correctly and added at the correct time intervals?

how long did you boil and when your boil was done how long before your temp was below 175?

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90 minute boil, chilled within about 5-10 mins with an immersion chiller.

Are you sure the hops were weighed correctly and added at the correct time intervals?

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Yes. I'm wondering if the dry hops had been better utilized, if they would have helped balance the beer.

crypt0 said:

So when I finally had it kegged and carbed, it was bitter beyond bitter. So I'm asking for a little help in diagnosing where I might have gone wrong.

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Sounds like you did Pliny right to me...

iijakii said:

Sounds like you did Pliny right to me...

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I have never had Pliny. I had never had a homebrew DIPA until tonight, at a club meeting I tried a Pliny clone someone had made. I'm not a hophead, but this beer was simply delicious. The bitterness was balanced by hop flavor, and it was just a terrific beer. I've had commercial DIPAs from Lagunitas, Stone, and others and they couldn't hold a candle to this.

Don't a lot of the hop flavors fade from DIPAs after a while? I've never brewed one b/c I don't like having a small window to drink a big beer.

2 big questions:

A. Are you sure you added 3.5oz CTZ at 90min, and the hops were roughly 13-14% AA?

B. how much wort ended up in your fermenter, and did you take an OG reading after the dextrose was added. Also a FG reading would help

The recipe you used was the same recipe I used. Very good beer.

Sounds like you did Pliny right to me...

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I have had real pliny before, at russian river. I found it hoppy but balanced.

2 big questions:

A. Are you sure you added 3.5oz CTZ at 90min, and the hops were roughly 13-14% AA?

B. how much wort ended up in your fermenter, and did you take an OG reading after the dextrose was added. Also a FG reading would help

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A. Yes. 3.5 oz 14.0% Columbus @ 90 minutes
B. 6 gallons into fermenter from BK.

The beer finished at 1006.

My OG was 1060, and on the second day of fermentaiton i added the extra 12oz dextrose, so it's hard to say what that would have boosted my OG to. Either way its adding way more dextrose then the recipe called for, and it finished extra dry because of it.

At this point I honestly think missing my target OG is responsible for most of the over-bitterness.

12oz dextrose adds about 5 to 5.5 gravity points. Including the water, figure 1.064 as your OG. I think the issue is more how dry it finished. PTE is definitely a dry beer, but 1.006 is excessively dry, I think the target is around 1.010 to 1.011. 1.006 is saison territory, so the hop bitterness will definitely be more prevalent.

scottland said:

12oz dextrose adds about 5 to 5.5 gravity points. Including the water, figure 1.064 as your OG. I think the issue is more how dry it finished. PTE is definitely a dry beer, but 1.006 is excessively dry, I think the target is around 1.010 to 1.011. 1.006 is saison territory, so the hop bitterness will definitely be more prevalent.

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+1.

I had Pliny a few weeks ago for teh first time. While the IBUs are off the charts, the beer itself is very mellow. That is what makes it so good. It is hoppy without terrible bite so I can see why you are disappointed with the results.

John

I know this post was forever ago, but I missed the last couple replies. Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to try this recipe again soon, but I'm curious which recipe is the one vinny actually released? I've seen a couple different recipes, the one I mentioned at beerdujour, and one with hops added directly to the mash (and a couple extra hop varieties that aren't at beerdujour.... warrior and chinook.

So I guess my last question is, which recipe is legit?

After searching for a bit I found the recipe I'm thinking of here
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25406

(insert obligatory Kal kicks ass comment here)

I would also ask about your water used in the recipe, whether you use local water and if you treat it, etc.

Could be something like an excessive amount of sulfate in your water.

I have naturally hard water from the city. I bypass my softener, charcol (brita) filter the water, and add 5.2 to the mash. I haven't really gotten into water chemistry as of yet in my brewing.

I have no idea which recipe is legit, I have never had a Pliney, but I brewed up the More! Beer kit several weeks ago - amazing...

crypt0 said:

I have naturally hard water from the city. I bypass my softener, charcol (brita) filter the water, and add 5.2 to the mash. I haven't really gotten into water chemistry as of yet in my brewing.

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I would definitely try buying reverse osmosis water from the store and trying that, and not use the 5.2 stabilizer at all.

Water chemistry plays an enormous role in the final flavor of the beer, and "hard" water that may have high alkalinity can definitely cause some harsh bitterness from the hops as well as a too-high mash pH.

So how did it end up? Did the bitterness mellow over time? Did it in general age well?

No, it was borderline undrinkably bitter start to finish. I am stubborn when it comes to dumping brews though, and hoped it would improve

crypt0 said:

I have naturally hard water from the city. I bypass my softener, charcol (brita) filter the water, and add 5.2 to the mash. I haven't really gotten into water chemistry as of yet in my brewing.

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Do some research on the 5.2, it's not really the miracle product they claim it to be. It will buffer somewhat, but you have to be pretty close to 5.2 already for it to be effective. I know this from having really hard water (bicarbonates 330+), and trying to do exactly what you're doing. "Getting into" water chemistry improved my beers by an order of magnitude. Prior to that, anything colored lighter than pitch black had this horrible astringent, bitter, soapy, metallic aftertaste that never went away. Once I learned how water affects mash chemistry, and adjusted for it, that aftertaste disappeared. Doesn't sound like your water is causing quite as extreme of an effect, but I'd give some serious thought to getting your water chemistry dialed in before dropping the coin on another Pliny batch.