HERMS or RIMS

I've been away from brewing for a while trying to finish a home renovation, but now its time to start my rig build! My question is which system (RIMS or HERMS)
do you prefer and why? I have access to 220v and natural gas. If you don't have a perfect rig what would you build if money wasn't an issue? I'm currently leaning towards a Hybrid HERMS (electric HLT and gas fired boil kettle). I'm hoping the breadth of knowledge and experience here can help me make the right decision.

I found HERMS slow and sometimes a bit finicky (lots of tubing and a pump that sometimes failed to prime).

I like steam now. There are a ton of threads and posts here, including a simple system based on a pressure cooker. Steam may not solve all of the issues associated with any other method, but I've had great results using it.

I'm using HERMS and love it... I hear the disadvantage to RIMS is that if you're not careful the hot elemen in the recirc area can scald the wort, if you're not careful, but I don't have one so I'm speaking from what I've heard. I love my HERMS. Great clear worts out of it and easy to control mash...

Thanks Yuri, i've recently seen you half barrel system and its very impressive; quite a step up from the corny version you had a year ago. I guess its a category of its own?

pickles, it is perhaps a category of its own. When directly injecting steam into the mash, it's most like a direct fired mash tun. If I successfully manage to recirculate through the new gadgetry, that portion will behave most like RIMS. In no case will there be any scorching from a hot element directly in contact with the wort.

Mostly, I like the fast heating that steam provides (direct steam injection is FAR faster than any recirculating method) along with the flexibility of the rig that I'm envisioning.

do you use solenoids and love (or similar) controllers to regulate temps? I'm assuming you use gas for the boil.

I use solenoids and a microcontroller board that I program myself. I just got another 5500W heating element for the boil. I'm going all electric.

I use a direct fired completely manual RIMS. It was easy to build and it's easy to operate. I find it to be very versatile and it can handle multi-step mashing easily. I particularly like the simplicity of it. It's not much more than a couple of propane burners, mash tun, boil kettle and a pump. It's Fire Brewed!

thanks Catt22 for the input. I should add that I love building things! I want to build an automated system, i'm just not sure which style to chose. I currently have a keggle and two donor kegs awaiting transformation.

I should include...my 1/2 bbl boiler is for 15+ gallon batches. Even so, it's overkill. I don't recommend it unless you're REALLY serious about steam. Try out a pressure cooker before going full bore with a big boiler like that.

pickles said:

I've been away from brewing for a while trying to finish a home renovation, but now its time to start my rig build! My question is which system (RIMS or HERMS)
do you prefer and why? I have access to 220v and natural gas. If you don't have a perfect rig what would you build if money wasn't an issue? I'm currently leaning towards a Hybrid HERMS (electric HLT and gas fired boil kettle). I'm hoping the breadth of knowledge and experience here can help me make the right decision.

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I like HERMS this the next brewery I will build like my last one but having indirect heating with a fully electric 240 volt brewing system 11KW in the HLT, MLT and Boil keggle. This will step down to 5.5 KW control once the set temps are reached and controlled by a BCS-460 controller. (Thanks Adam with your BCS -460 control system).
Whirlpool cooling with well water of 62 to 63 degrees depending time of year, water's free I water the yard by the hour anyway plus will brew with this well water instead of the tap water crap. Mind you we have good tap water but I do not want to brew with it. Natural well water with the minerals for me, call it old school same as my grandparents brewing from back in 1924. German what can I say we like our suds.

I use electric RIMS and love it. I have brewed some very light lagers with no scorching of the wort. I use pumps and heat exchangers mounted in a box with a BCS-460 to control everything and it has made my brewing very repeatable and relaxing.


Linc

I'm way off from rebuilding my brewery but I have a vision of using a single heating element in what I'd call a multi-purpose inline heater. I'd control it via PID where the probe input is in the heating tube just before the outlet. Basically, you modulate the element to heat to your setpoint. I'd use this to heat incoming tap water for strike. After cutting it to a 120v operation, I'd use it as a RIMs tube for mash temp maintenance/mash out. Then I'd switch it back to 240v and use it to heat incoming tapwater for the sparge.

It's just an idea, it needs more work but it seems like it would be a nice functional 2-vessel RIMS with only one pump required.

missing link:
what do you use for a heat exchanger? Something like a shirron or therminator, or is it a homemade exchanger. Do you have any pics available?

Why settle have both! My system (when its done) will be a direct fired MLT RIMS that circulates through a direct fired HLT with a HERMS. The HERMS will do what it does best (maintain rock solid mash temps) and the direct fired RIMS will do what it does best (step mashing).

If I had to answer that BK, it would be that you can't direct fire and insulate at the same time. Sure, you've got the HERMS maintaining but it would be nice not to be wasteful of energy. I'm thinking element/tube RIMS and insulated MLT for that reason. The element only runs every once in a while because the heat retention is good.

Bobby_M said:

If I had to answer that BK, it would be that you can't direct fire and insulate at the same time. Sure, you've got the HERMS maintaining but it would be nice not to be wasteful of energy. I'm thinking element/tube RIMS and insulated MLT for that reason. The element only runs every once in a while because the heat retention is good.

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That is true and would be a nice system, it is just more complicated. I already have the direct fired RIMS so that is why I am going that route. If I used and insulated tun, I would do what you suggest. I think the double combo is the best solution.

Bobby_M said:

If I had to answer that BK, it would be that you can't direct fire and insulate at the same time. Sure, you've got the HERMS maintaining but it would be nice not to be wasteful of energy. I'm thinking element/tube RIMS and insulated MLT for that reason. The element only runs every once in a while because the heat retention is good.

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That and the fact that I can datalog with the BCS were the main reason for me going with RIMS.

Vent the mash tun skirt and insulate with KAO wool insulation. Here is a couple shots of a vented keggle Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Boil kettle and the vent to roof Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Vent hood

I built my RIMS in 1997 and have been brewing on it ever since. Through a couple hundred batches, I have never had scorched wort. With a low watt density heating element, proper design and wort flow rate you will not have problems with scorching. I use an insulated MLT, so my heating element does not run all the time. I get 1 degree F per minute temperature ramp when step mashing a 10 gallon grain bill. I have no experience with HERMS, but my RIMS experience has only been positive.

Regards,
BorderBrewer

Bobby_M said:

If I had to answer that BK, it would be that you can't direct fire and insulate at the same time. Sure, you've got the HERMS maintaining but it would be nice not to be wasteful of energy. I'm thinking element/tube RIMS and insulated MLT for that reason. The element only runs every once in a while because the heat retention is good.

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Thats how my brewery works. I have a burner under my MLT but never intend to use it. I am sure you have seen my posts, but it is a Relatively inexpensive way to go. You can build the one I have using 304 Stainless Steel pipe or spend a few more bucks and go 316 Stainless, a PID, "J" Thermocouple and low density heater for under $200.

PS: I am looking for an insulating jacket for my MLT. If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.

Sawdustguy,
To insulate my Mash Tun (15.5 gal Sanke keg), I used two layers of Mylar bubble wrap taped on with aluminum duct tape, then two layers of the closed cell foam from a backpackers sleeping pad. Over that I wrapped the whole thing with 3" wide Copper Electrical tape from 3M. My mash tun is made from a Sanke keg turned upside down. The keg bottom is cut out and is now the top of the tun and I used the spear neck for a center bottom drain by welding a 1/2" FPT 316SS tank spud onto the spear neck. I have a copper manifold made of 1/2" pipe threaded into the tank spud. This manifold holds my thermocouple probe vertically which protrudes up into the wort under the false bottom. The manifold tees off to a QD connection to my pump inlet. I cut circular pieces of closed cell foam to insulate around the spear neck bottom drain and I use oversized circular pieces of foam to insulate the top. I tuck the edges of the oversized pieces up under the keg chines while mashing. This arrangement has worked well for me.

Regards,
BorderBrewer

Sawdustguy said:

PS: I am looking for an insulating jacket for my MLT. If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears.

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Two turns of Reflectix from HD with some silver foil tape keeping it in position on the keggle. The outside of it is cool to the touch while mashing so anything beyond that seems to be wasteful in my system. btw - next brew should be using your SS pipe heater. Fingers crossed!

samc said:

Two turns of Reflectix from HD with some silver foil tape keeping it in position on the keggle. The outside of it is cool to the touch while mashing so anything beyond that seems to be wasteful in my system. btw - next brew should be using your SS pipe heater. Fingers crossed!

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Good luck with your session Sam. You will do fine.