Controller question

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bowhuntah

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Sorry if this has already been covered but what is the best way to control two elements in one kettle? Can I control two elements with one PID?
 
No, you will need a separate controller for each element.

Edit:
The question is, though, why do you want to have independently controlled elements?

Edit, Edit:
Unless you are not trying to independently control the 2 elements. In which case yes. You will need to make sure your circuit/ssr can handle both elements, and then just wire them up. Or use 2 SSRs, but still make sure your circuit can handle the load.
 
No, I don't want to control them independently. My boil kettle will have two elements (two 5500w on a 60amp circuit). I want to be able to control them as if they were one. So one PID with a SSR for each element?
 
That is what I would do. Or use a higher amperage SSR. Typically, I am using a 25 amp ssr to control 1 element. But a 40 amp ssr should be able to handle 2, just do the math based on your voltage/heater element max watts to make sure.
 
Just realized my last question wasn't so clear. Is a PID required for each element?
 
No, you should be able to run a single PID. But I was just doing the math. If you are runining 110 Volt, you can get away with a single 40 amp SSR, but if you are running 220 Volt, you will be pushing 50 amps with 2 heater elements, and will need 2 40 amp SSRs or an appropriately sized single SSR (greater than 50 amps - leave yourself a little head room). I may edit this as I am still checking the math.
 
I'll be going 220. I could possibly down size the elements. They will be going in a 45 gallon BK.
 
bowhuntah,

Been following your thread and the idea intrigued me, so I decided to illustrate a diagram for you that might clarify the wiring.

(Click on the image for a full scale diagram that can be printed on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



Switches 1 & 2 are placed to positively isolate the element power from your kettle during setup or whenever needed. The EPO circuit is designed to trip the mains GFCI breaker in the event of an emergency.

Hope this helps you.
 
With switches 1 & 2 on, the elements hot even when the relay is not energized?
There will be voltage present at the element but no current flow unless the SSR is triggered by the PID. I generally place a switch after the SSRs so that the element can be isolated. This is a safety measure.

Those switches are high current units BTW. The source is in the Legend. Grainger also carries them.
 
P-J, I think I'm going to build this controller with the addition of twin elements for a HLT as well. I guess I could just duplicate all the components but there must be a better way. Help! Please!
 
P-J, I think I'm going to build this controller with the addition of twin elements for a HLT as well. I guess I could just duplicate all the components but there must be a better way. Help! Please!
There is always another way. Now to the details. You have a 60A feed. That is enough to supply one setup with 2 5500W elements. Now with the addition of a HLT, you would need a 100A feed or 2 seprate 50A feeds. Keep in mind that it is very important to provide GFCI protection for the system.

I'm scheming a method for the setup if you can have a 100A 240V feed to your brew area. It can be done.

I'd be glad to help. What do you think?

P-J
 
I don’t foresee a need to fire the BK and HLT at the same time. Maybe a selector switch between the two sets of elements?
 
Ok. Here is the new plan:
(Click on the image for a full scale diagram that can be printed on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



Hope this helps you.

P-J
 
Im planning a similar project, eventually 3 elements. Im probably going to run a 30a line for each element. Im going to use a pid/ssr for one element, then manually switch the second element. My thinking is the times the second element needs to be on its gonna run 100% anyways. Heating strike water and heating/maintaining a boil. Obviously the PID is going to have a conniption fit, but mine does anyways.

And on a side note, 4 SSRs seems kind of redundant if you plan to never run 4 elements at a time. Of course they arnt that expensive and the peace of mind knowing you wont accidentally pop one if your selector mechanism decides to run two elements at a time. Cant see that happening but who knows.
 
...
And on a side note, 4 SSRs seems kind of redundant if you plan to never run 4 elements at a time. Of course they arnt that expensive and the peace of mind knowing you wont accidentally pop one if your selector mechanism decides to run two elements at a time. Cant see that happening but who knows.
Good point. So here is another view:
(Click on the image for a full scale diagram that can be printed on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



...
 
Thanks P-J. My only question is how does the PID differentiate between the two tank inputs?
 
Thanks P-J. My only question is how does the PID differentiate between the two tank inputs?
The temperature probe would be mounted in the HLT (it stays there). The PID uses it to set and maintain the temperature of the HLT. When switched to the BOIL kettle, the PID would then be set to manual mode. This allows you to set the percent of power delivered to maintain a proper boil. The temp probe must be connected to the PID for the PID to function properly.

If you wanted to use the BOIL kettle to heat additional water based on temperature, you would need a second probe and then switch it. Or install a second PID so that you could fully control either kettle.

P-J
 
Bowhuntah,

I've been stewing some about my diagram thinking there has got to be a better, more simple, way of doing this complex setup for you. I feel that there were way too many switches involved (which are rather expensive to boot).

I messed with it some more and came up with a refined drawing that will be easier to wire and a lot easier to control. I went from 9 total switches in the last diagram to a total of 5 which includes the EPO switch. Switch #1 is the key. It is a 4 pole - double throw -center off switch rated for 25A. When it is in the first position it selects the HLT elements. Center position - all the elements are off and isolated from any power source. In the 3rd position it selects the BOIL elements. Here is the switch: Grainger.com Toggle Switch PN 2TPA3

As always:
(Click on the image for a full scale diagram that can be printed on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")




Now I'm happy with it.!!

P-J
 
Thanks! that looks like it will be a lot cleaner!
Yes - and a lot easier to manage and control your system.

Another thought for you. If you wanted to have indicator lights on your controller that shows which function is selected, that would be fairly easy to add on as well. Cheap too as it would only be the cost of 2 LED indicators and wire that you will already be using in the setup.

(Darn, I'm still scheming.!)
 
Yes - and a lot easier to manage and control your system.

Another thought for you. If you wanted to have indicator lights on your controller that shows which function is selected, that would be fairly easy to add on as well. Cheap too as it would only be the cost of 2 LED indicators and wire that you will already be using in the setup.

(Darn, I'm still scheming.!)

Scheme away! :D
 
Now that made me really laugh. Thanks, I needed that.!!

You know the drill.
(Click on the image for a full scale diagram that can be printed on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



BTW: The lamp shows as a 'red' lamp but it is an 'amber' unit.
Also: I'm keeping the diagrams in sequence (new name for each) so that you (and everyone following your thread) can see what this Old Man is up to.

Now what?

P-J
 
Thanks P-J! PID and enclosure on order. On my third Frye's leap IPA. Gotta stop before I spend more money!
 
Works for me.
I'm still open for Q&A on the build. Let me know if I can help with detail.

Hey, with the interaction we have had, I already saved you a ton of money.!

ROTFLMAO.gif
 
P-J, I told you there would be more questions. Do you have a source for the DIN mount breakers? Grainger has them but they're not cheap. $53 each for the 25's.
 
P-J, I told you there would be more questions. Do you have a source for the DIN mount breakers? Grainger has them but they're not cheap. $53 each for the 25's.
Yup.

AutomationDirect.com
240V-25A Double pole breaker $16.00
120V-15A Single pole breaker $8.00
DIN rail 2 pack 1 meter length $9.00

The Yellow Push Button mushroom switch $7.50 also comes from them.

Hope this helps. I know it saved you a bunch. $56.50 for the breaker set plus the EPO switch vs $53.00 for 1 breaker.

P-J
 
P-J, It's been awesome following the progression of your drawings on this thread and the timing was great as I would like to build something with the same element setup. The difference is that I do want to be able to run the HLT and the Boil kettle elements at the same time.
 
mateomtb,

Thanks.
You do realize that if you intend to power the HLT and Boil at the same time, you need to have at least 100A 240V GFCI protected power available to your controller?

Basically, you would be running 22,000W plus pumps and PIDs.
 
P-J, I decided to go with 2 PID's. I was thinking of switching the through switch #1 along with the elements. Do you see any issues with this?
 
mateomtb,

Thanks.
You do realize that if you intend to power the HLT and Boil at the same time, you need to have at least 100A 240V GFCI protected power available to your controller?

Basically, you would be running 22,000W plus pumps and PIDs.

Yeah, I saw how those requirements were calculated earlier in the thread. From the start I have planned on having a professional electrician install service for this.
 
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