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dkwolf said:
While I support rescue shelters and wouldn't be opposed to getting a dog from one, I have some major issues with this post.

First off, just because a dog doesn't come from a shelter, doesn't mean it comes from a puppy mill. There are such things as responsible breeders that care about the dogs - even after they've gone to their new homes. The guy across the hall from me at work used to be one - he had such a strong reputation in his particular breed's world (Brittany Spaniels) that he usually had a year plus waiting list for pups. He used to go as far as requiring interviews with prospective buyers, and when they came to the top of the list, he would match them to a puppy's personality to make sure it was a good fit. Towards the end of his breeding career, he stopped doing that, but would still assist with selection. He had two pups that I know of develop medical issues (diabetes and epilepsy), and the owners wished to part with the dog. He refunded 100% of their money, and found a new home for the dogs. These types of breeders - the good ones, not the puppy mills - research the genealogy of a breeding pair to make sure there's not genetic issues, will often have the mother checked for hip and eye problems before breeding to make sure the puppies won't be genetically predisposed to problems.

And the second problem I have is the statement, "there's no reason to buy dogs from puppy mills even if you're wanting a specific kind of dog. There's dogs of every breed that are waiting to be adopted."

Wrong again. Granted, if you're just looking for a companion dog, you're right. But if you're looking for a working dog, there are legitimate reasons for buying from a breeder (again, note the distinction: BREEDER, not puppy mill). First being bloodlines. Dogs of one bloodline will typically have a specific overall temperament and drive. (for instance, my coworkers dogs were of the Maverick bloodline, known for being very social, family dogs that would hunt through a brick wall if they thought a bird was on the other side) Secondly, is training. I know guys -- die-hard hunters -- that refuse to let anyone else train their dogs. They want to be the 'alpha male' to their dogs starting the day the pup leaves his mother - and I tend to agree that the first month or two a pup is away from mom is some of the most valuable bonding time.

NOW, am I saying rescue dogs are bad? Nope, not at all. But to say there's no reason to get a dog anywhere but a rescue is ignorant, and to group all breeders in with puppy mills is offensive.

We are beginning a breeding program soon with our Welsh Springer Spaniel, and I completely agree. We have done rescue work and we have worked with shelters, and they do a great thing, but reputable breeders that get their dogs screened for health clearances and select for proper behavioral traits should be appreciated for the work that goes into improving breeds. I have owned mutts and pure-bred dogs. Pets from both camps have been wonderful, but the dogs we have had in our program have turned out to be wonderful hunting dogs, and in one case, great at search and rescue in the Middle East. As long as people are back yard breeding and not getting their dogs fixed, there will always be a place for rescues, but the work that legitimate breeders do improves the health, longevity, and service the dogs we love can achieve.
 
edds5p0 said:
We are beginning a breeding program soon with our Welsh Springer Spaniel, and I completely agree. We have done rescue work and we have worked with shelters, and they do a great thing, but reputable breeders that get their dogs screened for health clearances and select for proper behavioral traits should be appreciated for the work that goes into improving breeds. I have owned mutts and pure-bred dogs. Pets from both camps have been wonderful, but the dogs we have had in our program have turned out to be wonderful hunting dogs, and in one case, great at search and rescue in the Middle East. As long as people are back yard breeding and not getting their dogs fixed, there will always be a place for rescues, but the work that legitimate breeders do improves the health, longevity, and service the dogs we love can achieve.

Well said also... I love springers. I've had the pleasure of field traing a few in Montana. Poor me had to shoot about about a hundred Huns, pheasant and doves to get it done. Nothing cuter than a springer puppy (except for a lab of corse, goldens are up there too) :)
 
This is Sadie, the rescue dog we picked up about a month ago. The best we can figure is she's a Lab-boxer/pit mix. She's pretty dopey, but a big baby otherwise.

Regarding the breeder/rescue/puppy mill debate, our first dog (Sammie, the Sheltie in the back) came from a breeder. I guess the term "breeder" should even be used loosely, as it was just an older couple who owned the female and only bred her twice. The 1st litter had 4 or 5 puppies, and the 2nd was just Sammie and his brother. The couple took really good care of the puppies, to the point that he was mostly housebroken and crate-trained when we picked him up at 8 weeks. Hell, they lived in a mansion...he downgraded big-time when he came home with us! :D

Point is, although there's nothing wrong with mutts or rescues, people can breed dogs without being anywhere near puppy-mill conditions.

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We've got another new one, a Sheltie/ rototiller mix. Sheela, the Destroyer of Gardens, looks like a very small shaded tri-color Sheltie, but with shorter fur. She can dig up a plant, shred a shoe, or steal a glove instantly. Still in the "chew everything" stage

My wife wanted a puppy. Bwah, ha, ha, ha, haaa! Your wish has been granted!
 
We've got another new one, a Sheltie/ rototiller mix. Sheela, the Destroyer of Gardens, looks like a very small shaded tri-color Sheltie, but with shorter fur. She can dig up a plant, shred a shoe, or steal a glove instantly. Still in the "chew everything" stage

My wife wanted a puppy. Bwah, ha, ha, ha, haaa! Your wish has been granted!

At first glance I thought that said "Sheltie/rottweiler mix". Well, that's an...interesting combination.

I swear I haven't had that much to drink today. :cross:
 
Our dog is an Aussie and was a rescue. His owner before us bought him from a breeder. They gave him back when they realized he wasn't social (likely their own doing). We took him in and figured we could train him and overcome the fear of people. It took us a week to get him to stop hiding in the corner.

Long story short we have gone through hundreds in trainers, hours and hours of training, and a few bitten guests. Sadly he will never be let around people, especially children.

I can see the arguments going both ways. Irresponsible/ignorant people can ruin a dog over a short time. Buying a puppy (healthily bred) reduces the chance of a dog with issues. I love my dog to death and he is my best friend, but its awful when people come around. For the both of us. I wish I could trust him and let him out to see people, but I can't. Ahhh I have a crazy dog lol
 
Not going to turn this into a debate forum so I'll just post a quick reply with my point of view and then I'm done.

There are so many dogs that need homes that are put to death today, there is no such thing as a "responsible breeder". We don't need to be intentionally breeding more dogs.

And most people I've seen that buy dogs specifically for hunting treat them like crap. They're possessions and nothing more.

Done and movin' on.

If you changed that to "Responsible backyard breeder" I could probably agree with you. But some dogs, especially working dogs are almost impossible to find outside of a established reliable breeder. Most of those have a very in depth screening program as well as contract with the buyer that requires certain things like spay/neuter, require that the dog be returned to them if the buyer ever cannot keep it etc.

I've been looking for a Malinois pup and the likely hood of finding one in a shelter is maybe 1%. There are a couple of breeders within a couple hundred miles of me but the price is steep and the process is likely more in depth than buying my last house :drunk:

Those kind of breeders are absolutely not the problem as they strive to improve the dogs bloodlines and make sure they are fit to the right homes. Most of the ones I've met consider their sire/dams as parts of their family. That's a country mile different from the "xyz pups $300" you see on craigslist out of someone's backyard.
 
I've been looking for a Malinois pup and the likely hood of finding one in a shelter is maybe 1%. There are a couple of breeders within a couple hundred miles of me but the price is steep and the process is likely more in depth than buying my last house :drunk:

Your argument appears to be based on the premise that it is critical that you have a malinois, or that it is vital that anyone have a specific breed. From my reading of the post you responded to, I think that poster's argument would be that you probably don't need a malinois, you could do just fine with any of the plethora of dogs that end up being put down every year.

Anyways, I'm not questioning your desire for a malinois, perhaps they have some specific trait that makes that breed the only one that suits your needs. I also understand the potential benefits of getting a dog from a breeder with respect to hopefully knowing a bit more about how the dog was previously treated. Just pointing out what I think the root of the difference in opinion is: the question of whether someone's desire for a specific breed justifies mutts being put down. Without agreement on that, there's no chance for agreement on whether responsible breeder is a reasonable term. :p

All that said, I have two Australian shepherds, both of which came from a rescue, to which they were surrendered by the same breeder (obviously the opposite of a responsible breeder by anyone's definition). So I am fortunate to have both the breed I wanted and was able to get them from a rescue.
 
Your argument appears to be based on the premise that it is critical that you have a malinois, or that it is vital that anyone have a specific breed. From my reading of the post you responded to, I think that poster's argument would be that you probably don't need a malinois, you could do just fine with any of the plethora of dogs that end up being put down every year.

It's not critical that I have a Malinois (that's simply the breed I personally am looking for), nor do I think it's vital that anyone have a single specific breed. Even in working dogs there are a variety of breeds that can perform the same tasks when raised and trained to do so.

My point was in disagreeing with the statement that there are no 'responsible breeders', though I did state some personal opinion as to why I disagreed.

Anyways, I'm not questioning your desire for a malinois, perhaps they have some specific trait that makes that breed the only one that suits your needs. I also understand the potential benefits of getting a dog from a breeder with respect to hopefully knowing a bit more about how the dog was previously treated. Just pointing out what I think the root of the difference in opinion is: the question of whether someone's desire for a specific breed justifies mutts being put down. Without agreement on that, there's no chance for agreement on whether responsible breeder is a reasonable term. :p

Should other peoples failures become another's moral requirement? Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of adoption over purchase when it comes to a family pet or companion animal, but to say that someones desire for a specific breed justifies mutts being put down doesn't jive with me. If we're painting with that black & white brush, should anyone have children of their own, while there are so many available for adoption?
 
It's not critical that I have a Malinois (that's simply the breed I personally am looking for), nor do I think it's vital that anyone have a single specific breed. Even in working dogs there are a variety of breeds that can perform the same tasks when raised and trained to do so.

My point was in disagreeing with the statement that there are no 'responsible breeders', though I did state some personal opinion as to why I disagreed.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The basis for the "no responsible breeders" argument is that any dog intentionally bred, when there are thousands of "excess" dogs, is essentially condemning another dog to death. None of your statements appeared to touch on that underlying belief, which was my point. Without agreement on that, how well breeders raise and distribute their dogs is a moot point.

Should other peoples failures become another's moral requirement? Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of adoption over purchase when it comes to a family pet or companion animal, but to say that someones desire for a specific breed justifies mutts being put down doesn't jive with me. If we're painting with that black & white brush, should anyone have children of their own, while there are so many available for adoption?

A more accurate analogy would be "should anyone intentionally conceive and have children with the purpose of putting them up for adoption when there are already so many available for adoption?"

I'm honestly not trying to argue one way or the other, merely saying that "some breeders advance the bloodline and find good homes" does not touch at all on the fundamental issue that some people have with breeders.
 
BrewKnurd said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The basis for the "no responsible breeders" argument is that any dog intentionally bred, when there are thousands of "excess" dogs, is essentially condemning another dog to death. None of your statements appeared to touch on that underlying belief, which was my point. Without agreement on that, how well breeders raise and distribute their dogs is a moot point.

I don't agree with this argument that one dog bred means another dog dies. You're assuming that those dogs would be adopted anyways.
Even if all breeders were shut down tomorrow, there would still be dogs that would be put down after not being adopted.
The breeders aren't being irresponsible, the people who don't spay/neuter their pets and let them wander the street to impregnate or get pregnant are the irresponsible ones same as the people that decide they don't want a dog and dump it off for animal control to pick up. Just because some people aren't responsible pet owners and as a result contribute to an abundance of dogs that end up in shelters, doesn't mean someone should feel bad if there's a specific breed they want so they buy it from a breeder. I think it's great for people to adopt animals, but I'm not going to judge someone if they choose a different method for finding a pet.
 
Our dog is an Aussie and was a rescue. His owner before us bought him from a breeder. They gave him back when they realized he wasn't social (likely their own doing). We took him in and figured we could train him and overcome the fear of people. It took us a week to get him to stop hiding in the corner.

Long story short we have gone through hundreds in trainers, hours and hours of training, and a few bitten guests. Sadly he will never be let around people, especially children.

Wow, I've never had an Aussie bite anyone (I've had 5 so far). They can and will nip, but I've never had a biter. All of mine were always very social to people, almost to the point of being lousy guard dogs LOL. All except one came from rescue, and the one that was bought from a breeder was the toughest one I had. Took a whole year to house train her and to get her to act "normal". But I did manage it.

My latest 2 came from a lady that was overwhelmed... She had a great first Aussie (Barley, as I call him) and then she made the mistake of getting a 2nd one (known as Blue), and that's when problems started and she lost control of them. The fact that I'm 6'4" and I don't put up with B.S. from dogs got me to the point where I've got them trained. Took a while and nearly drove me nuts, but perseverance paid off.

MC
 
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The basis for the "no responsible breeders" argument is that any dog intentionally bred, when there are thousands of "excess" dogs, is essentially condemning another dog to death. None of your statements appeared to touch on that underlying belief, which was my point. Without agreement on that, how well breeders raise and distribute their dogs is a moot point.

You're operating on the assumption that someone buying dog A from a breeder condemns dog B to death, which is a logical fallacy. Sure it increases the odds that another shelter/rescue dog will be euthanized but eliminating reputable breeders will never eliminate the risk of unwanted animals being put down.


A more accurate analogy would be "should anyone intentionally conceive and have children with the purpose of putting them up for adoption when there are already so many available for adoption?"

I don't think your analogy is particularly apt, but we're heading way off track of this thread at this point and going into an area more suited for the debate forum. Feel free to make a thread there and I'll gladly participate.

My primary point here, is that you cannot make sure black and white distinctions as "you should only adopt" or "there are no reputable breeders" as another poster inferred.
 
Granted, I paraphrased, but this is the post that started my original response.

OK, didn't see that one. definitely don't agree with him that there is no such thing as a "responsible breeder"

but do have to agree with the rest of his post

my Howdy is from a puppy mill and abandoned because he wouldn't hunt. our other 2 dogs were abandoned too. I can't see myself with any dog other than a rescue, because the BigHair and I decided that's what we're going to do.

but that's just us.


Not going to turn this into a debate forum

but you did
 
Not sure if I posted a picture of my little guy before. He's a toy fox terrier.
This is the only picture of him I have on my phone right now.

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We actually got him from a breeder about 9 years ago, but he wasn't one of the dogs she bred. She bought him for herself as a pet. Then she realized why she never kept a pet. She didn't feel she could give him the attention he deserved and give the attention necessary to her breeding dogs and puppies. So we took him. He is definitely one of the craziest/weirdest dogs I've ever owned. He constantly provides us with alot of laughs.
 
Our boy KB used to go insane for broccoli. We had a house rabbit that would get veggies and if she got broccoli he had to have a big chunk of it himself. He also gives me his undivided attention if I'm slicing bell peppers so I have to toss him a bite now and then.
Harper is the same way about most anything but specially carrots. He has a thing for ice too which is weird.
cirka loves her some ice cubes as well, glad to know she's not alone in that weirdness. she loves almost all veggies, our compose bin has been a lot less full ever since we got the pup. she gets the ends of zucchini and eggplant, loves carrots, devours the insides of peppers, makes short work of asparagus stems, etc. arguably her favorite are bananas. whenever i eat a banana, she expects to get some. i'm sure she's be upset if she ever didn't get any, but i wouldn't know... i'm such a pushover. another case of "who's training who"...
 
I just think it's awesome that someone goes the extra distance and takes the extra time to go to a rescue or a pound or the local shelter and saves a puppy that wouldn't have any other chance to survive

:mug:
I'm all for saving them.
 
Wow, I've never had an Aussie bite anyone (I've had 5 so far).

One of my aussies bit my ex-wife (not ex at the time). Perhaps I should have taken that as a sign....... ;)

Fisher was only about 3-4 months at the time, and got her paw stuck in a wrought iron chair out back. Ex-wife tried to go free her, and Fisher was freaking out badly enough that she turned and bit her. Don't imagine there was a lot of force in the bite, but with those needle teeth that puppies have, it was pretty painful.
 
KB has never bitten anyone but he does use his mouth as a tool, with me at least. Not so much with anyone else. I'm the one he rough plays with. I do my best to remind him of the "no teeth" rule. With other people, when he wants to use his mouth, he uses his tongue. When the vet is messing with his feet or something he will lick very forcefully, trying to push her away with his tongue.
 
Wow, I've never had an Aussie bite anyone (I've had 5 so far). They can and will nip, but I've never had a biter. All of mine were always very social to people, almost to the point of being lousy guard dogs LOL. All except one came from rescue, and the one that was bought from a breeder was the toughest one I had. Took a whole year to house train her and to get her to act "normal". But I did manage it.

My latest 2 came from a lady that was overwhelmed... She had a great first Aussie (Barley, as I call him) and then she made the mistake of getting a 2nd one (known as Blue), and that's when problems started and she lost control of them. The fact that I'm 6'4" and I don't put up with B.S. from dogs got me to the point where I've got them trained. Took a while and nearly drove me nuts, but perseverance paid off.

MC

I also differentiate between nips and bites. He'll herd people and grab/nip ankles and heels. However he has viciously attacked my mothers leg when she turned, bit my 4 year old niece when she fell next to him, etc. He's a big fear biter. Our problem isn't an out of control dog who's spoiled. He's very well behaved and knows I run the pack (I'm 6'3 and am a firm believer of obedience lol). We believe his issue is with over protection of us and fear/anxiety when something is out of his control. So far we haven't been helped and it seems there is no fix to his behavior, but we do keep trying to teach him and train him. Maybe when he gets to be an old man he'll give up. But since he turned 2 last week, we're going to have to wait a while.
 
Yesterday walking home from the supermarket a lady was walking a Neapolitan Mastiff. Simply huge dog. I asked if I could "say hello" and the dog (and her owner) were gracious about me petting her. What was interesting about such a big wrinkly dog, though, is with most dogs you can see something going on in their eyes. Some sort of understanding of what is going on. This dog looked as if she had just woken up from a very long nap.

I get the feeling that Neos arent, perhaps, the BRIGHTEST dogs out there...
 
My new daughter has decided to go on a work strike. She is refusing to "come" because the leash means time to work and she wants to play. So a new opportunity to do some training. Seems to never end, I'm just glad I am up for the game....
Bob
 
My Frankie saw her first Turkey in the wild today, she couldn't figure out exactly what the heck it was, and just kinda stared in amazement. She sees deer, racoons, and possums all the time, but the turkeys are becoming more and more prevalent around here. Here she is this morning on her way to get some Krispy Kremes.
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