MrMalty Caculator - Are the vials to volume ratios linear?

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jtkratzer

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I'm brewing batches making 10 gallons of finished beer into kegs. I haven't done anything that I'd consider high gravity since starting all grain and I want to confirm that I can tweak the numbers on MrMalty.

Results indicate I need 3 vials of yeast in a 2.4 L starter for 11 gallons of wort. If I double the starter size to 5 liters, can I cut the number of packs in half? I know 1.5 packs of yeast is not a quantity one could buy. Just checking if the math works and the yeast behave that way.

Liquid yeast seems to be the highest priced ingredient and I don't mind making starters. I've never used more than single vial of yeast for any batch of beer. I usually make starters or used washed yeast with a starter.

I'm thinking if I do a 4L starter with a single vial, that puts me at roughly 400 billion cells per the pitching rate section of MrMalty. If I decant, and add another 2-4L, that should get me plenty of yeast.

Preference is to do one starter, but if I have to step it up for a beer this size, no worries.

Yes? No? Maybe?
 
I'm thinking if I do a 4L starter with a single vial, that puts me at roughly 400 billion cells per the pitching rate section of MrMalty. If I decant, and add another 2-4L, that should get me plenty of yeast.

Preference is to do one starter, but if I have to step it up for a beer this size, no worries.

Yes? No? Maybe?

I have a 10-gallon system. When I use liquid yeast I start with a 2L starter and then the next evening step it up to 4L. I get excellent results every time.
 
Yeast is expensive. That's why I went to saving slurries and counting cells.

Slide the "growth rate" slider to see how big the recommended starter is with less vials.

As for the volume of the starter, it isn't linear. As the inoculation rate drops (less vials to more wort) the growth also drops. I would figure out how much wort 100 billion cells (one vial) can support and pitch into that. Wait a day and add the remainder of the wort. See here for details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/12/no-more-wasteful-yeast-starters.html

If you are interested in cell counts check this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/counting-yeast-cells-to-asses-viability.html
 
If you want to save vials of yeast (or not buy so many) check into making stepped starters. Yeastcalc.com will be of more help, there, than mr. malty. With two, or three, starter steps, you can get the same (or more) yeast than you would with a huge starter. Talking about each step being under 2-3L in size, compared with over 20L as a single step.
 
I have a 2L flask and just ordered a 5L flask as the 2L seems to be too small to do a single step for a 10 gallon batch of 1.075 or higher wort.

I'll check out the links, but I'm looking for simple without having to buy multiple yeast vials. When washing yeast, I measure the volume of the yeast slurry for pitching into a starter, but that's about it. I have two kids under 3 and I just want to make beer. I'd rather avoid spending 2 weeks on the starter with multiple steps of growth, chill, decant, add wort, repeat.
 
Yeast is expensive. That's why I went to saving slurries and counting cells.

Slide the "growth rate" slider to see how big the recommended starter is with less vials.

As for the volume of the starter, it isn't linear. As the inoculation rate drops (less vials to more wort) the growth also drops. I would figure out how much wort 100 billion cells (one vial) can support and pitch into that. Wait a day and add the remainder of the wort. See here for details:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/12/no-more-wasteful-yeast-starters.html

If you are interested in cell counts check this:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/counting-yeast-cells-to-asses-viability.html

The stepped calculator is pretty sweet. A 4 liter starter of 1.040 wort followed up by a 1.5 liter step puts me at my target total cell count.
 
Longest I've ever had a 3 step starter schedule take was 6-7 days. That was with older yeast too (over 4-6 months old), with a stirplate. If you don't have a stirplate get or make one ASAP. Not only will your starters finish faster, but you'll be able to make smaller ones too.

I typically use either my 2L or 3L flask (on the stirplate). I have yet to need to use my 5L flask by doing at least two steps.

BTW, I get Wyeast packs from the LHBS (Jasper's) for <$7/pack. Some stores sell them for about $8/pack. Online, you'll spend a lot on shipping charges. You can also wash/harvest yeast after it's been used. OR, get a single pack/vial, make a starter from it, gather that up and freeze it. Then just thaw out the vial you're going to use and make another starter to get the cell count up.. Serious savings to be had that way. I did that part of a starter I reserved. Stepped it up in my 2L flask a couple of times and froze 12 50ml vials of it. :rockin: I should have enough yeast (of that strain) to easily go until they offer it again (Wyeast 1882-PC). Thinking about getting a couple of other strains and doing the same thing. Especially ones I can't easily get locally.
 
In general, no, it's not linear in either number of yeast packs or starter volume. If you hold these in constant ratio, then yes, it should be linear (so if you double the volume and pitch twice as much yeast, you will end up with twice as many cells).

There's an optimal pitching rate for maximum growth factor, which is one good target. However, since it's generally cheaper to increase the starter size (or do multiple steps), the financially optimal rate might differ. I recommend playing with yeastcalc.com to get a feel for this.

There's also a good discussion of this (with plots!) in the book "Yeast."
 
The stepped calculator is pretty sweet. A 4 liter starter of 1.040 wort followed up by a 1.5 liter step puts me at my target total cell count.

I'd suggest playing with the numbers to do two similarly-sized steps or a smaller size in the first step and a larger in the second. The calculator is likely to be more accurate for modest growth factors. It is also likely to be gentler on the yeast.
 
I typically make a smaller starter for the first step, then the second (or third) so that it will still fit in the flask.

Also, yeast production date impacts the size of your starter. If the calculation tool doesn't have provisions for that, don't use it. Also be sure to enter that information into the tool. Otherwise, you won't get an accurate assessment.
 
Longest I've ever had a 3 step starter schedule take was 6-7 days. That was with older yeast too (over 4-6 months old), with a stirplate. If you don't have a stirplate get or make one ASAP. Not only will your starters finish faster, but you'll be able to make smaller ones too.

I typically use either my 2L or 3L flask (on the stirplate). I have yet to need to use my 5L flask by doing at least two steps.

BTW, I get Wyeast packs from the LHBS (Jasper's) for <$7/pack. Some stores sell them for about $8/pack. Online, you'll spend a lot on shipping charges. You can also wash/harvest yeast after it's been used. OR, get a single pack/vial, make a starter from it, gather that up and freeze it. Then just thaw out the vial you're going to use and make another starter to get the cell count up.. Serious savings to be had that way. I did that part of a starter I reserved. Stepped it up in my 2L flask a couple of times and froze 12 50ml vials of it. :rockin: I should have enough yeast (of that strain) to easily go until they offer it again (Wyeast 1882-PC). Thinking about getting a couple of other strains and doing the same thing. Especially ones I can't easily get locally.

Brewmasters Warehouse is a flat $6.99 shipping per order, and I usually try to order at least 2 - 3 beers' worth of ingredients per order to minimize the impact of shipping charges. I buy my hops in bulk as much as I can (I have 7 pounds in the freezer). I'd like to get a grain mill at some point and bulk those orders as well. My LHBS is over $8 for liquid yeast and most hops are $3.25/oz, so I rarely shop there unless I absolutely need last minute things.

Got a link or something to read about yeast freezing? I'm not looking to build a lab or anything. I wash yeasts I regularly use like 1056, but I like diversity in my brews, so I end up with a WLP029, WLP036, Wy1056, etc in pint mason jars. Haven't really looked into freezing.

I've had a DIY stir plate for quite some time and love it.

In general, no, it's not linear in either number of yeast packs or starter volume. If you hold these in constant ratio, then yes, it should be linear (so if you double the volume and pitch twice as much yeast, you will end up with twice as many cells).

There's an optimal pitching rate for maximum growth factor, which is one good target. However, since it's generally cheaper to increase the starter size (or do multiple steps), the financially optimal rate might differ. I recommend playing with yeastcalc.com to get a feel for this.

There's also a good discussion of this (with plots!) in the book "Yeast."

Added to the "to read" list.

I typically make a smaller starter for the first step, then the second (or third) so that it will still fit in the flask.

Also, yeast production date impacts the size of your starter. If the calculation tool doesn't have provisions for that, don't use it. Also be sure to enter that information into the tool. Otherwise, you won't get an accurate assessment.

I use the data calculators on MrMalty and the others. I've been brewing over 2 years now, but the all grain and 10 gallon batches just started a few months ago and they've all been generally smaller beers (Centennial Blonde, Alt, and an IPA). I'd like to do Denny's Bourbon Vanilla Porter and some other bigger beers and lagers to put my side by side fermentation fridge/freezer to work.
 
There's a thread about it... Just get some glycerine first, and some of the tubes to freeze the yeast in. I'd also do a 'test run' with freezing water in one of the vials first. I did that, so I knew I would be safe (didn't want the vials to burst in the freezer). You'll want to be sure your freezer can get cold enough to make storage viable. -20C (-4F) is the start of where it's good. Luckily the freezer in my food fridge (where I live now) goes to -10F to -5F on it's coldest setting. So I'm good there. :D Just be sure to NOT leave the freezer open for too long while you have yeast in there. While it probably won't be long enough to have them start to thaw, it's better to keep them at a fairly stable temp.

I've had a mill for a while and have been involved in a few group grain buys. Bought some hops while on sale a while ago, so I have over 7# in the freezer now (brew fridge freezer). :D
Put my MM2-2.0 onto the old microwave cart (routed a hole in it to dump through).
mounted_mm2-20_mill-57375.jpg


I had to put a few boards under the bucket I catch with since the shelf was either too low, or too high. Also formed up some thin plexiglass to block out the gaps on either side, due to routing too much from the top. It will get used for the first time in this configuration on Saturday. :rockin:

Oh, and usually it's a good idea to at least use an insulated box for the yeast. Even in winter, since you have no way to know how the box will be stored while in transit. Could be exposed to sub freezing temperature for long enough to do serious harm to the yeast.
 
So the two beers I want to run next both call for 1056. YeastCalc says I need 589 billion cells for the porter and 304 billion for the blonde. Safe to add the two together and do a single starter stepped up to at least the 893 billion I need for the two brews and then split into the four appropriate sized containers (152 billion in two containers and 295 billion in two other containers for the four 6.5 gallon fermentors)?

Playing with the calculator - a pack of yeast made today, 1.040 gravity starter wort, on a stir plate, 2 liters, then 3 liters, then 4 litres, puts me at 1245 billion cells in that 4 liter starter. 1 liter should theoretically have 311.25 billion cells. Split that into two 1/2 liter containers and I have my yeast for each of my 5.5 gallon batches of Centennial Blonde. Another liter for each of my 5.5 gallon batches of the porter. Leaves me with a liter of roughly 300 billion cells to save in the fridge or freezer for the next batch that calls for this recipe.

Seems reasonable and way better than spending over $40 on 5 packs of the same yeast strain for two beers.
 
I wouldn't try to combine the two starters into one set. Chances of you pouring off the correct amount for the first one is rather remote. I'd simply make the starter sized for the first batch, and then make another for the second.

IMO, you can make one starter, get it to finish, cold crash it while the other one is on the stir plate. Cold crash that one while the second step for the first starter is going, etc. With that, you get two yeast packs and just do some decent shuffling and you're done. Probably only need two starter steps for each too. Use the smaller flask for the smaller starter amount (should be easy to get 304 billion cells with two steps in a 2L flask).
 
I wouldn't try to combine the two starters into one set. Chances of you pouring off the correct amount for the first one is rather remote. I'd simply make the starter sized for the first batch, and then make another for the second.

IMO, you can make one starter, get it to finish, cold crash it while the other one is on the stir plate. Cold crash that one while the second step for the first starter is going, etc. With that, you get two yeast packs and just do some decent shuffling and you're done. Probably only need two starter steps for each too. Use the smaller flask for the smaller starter amount (should be easy to get 304 billion cells with two steps in a 2L flask).

Am I missing something that would complicate the situation when pouring from a 5L flask into smaller containers with graduations on the side and pouring to a desired amount, like 500 ml, or 1 liter?
 
If you're going to brew / ferment them simultaneously, you might be able to do the single big starter.

If you're going to do one then the other, there are another couple options beyond Golddiggle's suggestion. You could brew the small one first (it looks like the bigger is probably > 1.061), then harvest and rinse the yeast from that for the second. Another would be to make your starter for the first brew, plus a bit extra, and store the extra to make a starter for the second. (This might be preferable, since you may not want Centennial hops leaking into your bigger brew..)
 
Am I missing something that would complicate the situation when pouring from a 5L flask into smaller containers with graduations on the side and pouring to a desired amount, like 500 ml, or 1 liter?

Why are you pouring from one flask into another??? I make my starters using stainless pots (which one depends on the starter size). I chill that in the sink, then pour it into my sanitized flask. Pour yeast from pack into flask, drop in sanitize stirbar and it goes onto the stirplate. Done. When it's done, it goes into the fridge to cold crash. 24-48 hours later, I pour off the spent starter wort and pour on some freshly made, chilled, starter wort and put it back onto the stirplate. Zero risk of getting boiling hot starter wort on your hands (or other parts).

Of my three flasks, I can fit the 2L and 3L into my fridge without removing any shelves. To get teh 5L in there, I'd need to remove a shelf (luckily, they're split shelves). Not ready to do that, which is why I'm glad I can do stepped starters to get my volumes, easily.

I am planning on getting a small beaker set, for when I mix up the solutions for freezing yeast (up to 1L size). Since I plan on only freezing a total amount of 500ml (12 of the vials I have) it's better that way. Those graduation marks are MUCH finer/more precise than what you'll see on flasks.
 
If you're going to brew / ferment them simultaneously, you might be able to do the single big starter.

If you're going to do one then the other, there are another couple options beyond Golddiggle's suggestion. You could brew the small one first (it looks like the bigger is probably > 1.061), then harvest and rinse the yeast from that for the second. Another would be to make your starter for the first brew, plus a bit extra, and store the extra to make a starter for the second. (This might be preferable, since you may not want Centennial hops leaking into your bigger brew..)

This would be easiest and fit my schedule as the CB is up first and the porter is whenever I get a chance after Christmas.

I'm thinking Friday or Sunday after Christmas on the Bourbon Vanilla Porter.

If I go that route, does this work? 1.5 liter starter, stepped to a 3 liter, makes roughly 650 billion cells. Split it in half - 1.5 liters gets split into the two fermenters of CB, the other 1.5 liters gets decanted and 2.5 liters of wort dumped onto it and the calculator puts me at 650 billion again for my 590 needed for the porter.
 
Why are you pouring from one flask into another??? I make my starters using stainless pots (which one depends on the starter size). I chill that in the sink, then pour it into my sanitized flask. Pour yeast from pack into flask, drop in sanitize stirbar and it goes onto the stirplate. Done. When it's done, it goes into the fridge to cold crash. 24-48 hours later, I pour off the spent starter wort and pour on some freshly made, chilled, starter wort and put it back onto the stirplate. Zero risk of getting boiling hot starter wort on your hands (or other parts).

Of my three flasks, I can fit the 2L and 3L into my fridge without removing any shelves. To get teh 5L in there, I'd need to remove a shelf (luckily, they're split shelves). Not ready to do that, which is why I'm glad I can do stepped starters to get my volumes, easily.

I am planning on getting a small beaker set, for when I mix up the solutions for freezing yeast (up to 1L size). Since I plan on only freezing a total amount of 500ml (12 of the vials I have) it's better that way. Those graduation marks are MUCH finer/more precise than what you'll see on flasks.

I was talking about making a starter big enough, in a single flask, to have yeast for the two batches of beer at the same time and dividing the contents of the single flask for each of the four fermenters. Had nothing to do with boiling or boiling in the flask. I must not have been clear on what I meant to say.
 
I was talking about making a starter big enough, in a single flask, to have yeast for the two batches of beer at the same time and dividing the contents of the single flask for each of the four fermenters. Had nothing to do with boiling or boiling in the flask. I must not have been clear on what I meant to say.

Yeah... IMO/IME, you're better off having one starter per batch. If you have to split it between two fermenting vessels, it's easier to split in half than 4 parts. You'll also want good vessels to split the starters into. I'd get better graduated beakers for this. That way you don't have to use a funnel to get between them. IF you really are set on making one LARGE starter (final step) and splitting it between four fermenters, get enough beakers, sized appropriately, to do this. Then again, you just blew any cost savings you might have had by making the larger starter.
 
If I go that route, does this work? 1.5 liter starter, stepped to a 3 liter, makes roughly 650 billion cells. Split it in half - 1.5 liters gets split into the two fermenters of CB, the other 1.5 liters gets decanted and 2.5 liters of wort dumped onto it and the calculator puts me at 650 billion again for my 590 needed for the porter.

I'm not checking your numbers here, but this sounds generally feasible.

You'll want to give yeast viability some thought, though. Even storing yeast in the fridge, it fades fairly rapidly. The easiest (and only) way I know to estimate this is to play with the MrMalty calculator "slurry" tab and set the collection date to various times in the past. Rule of thumb seems to be you'd like to keep the viability at over 90%, but I think that's less of an issue if you're going to do another starter instead of simply repitching.
 
Don't sweat the small stuff.

Yeast Calc and Mr. Malty show you three significant figures so you can see how things work, but in reality growth rates can vary quite a bit. You have to be off by quite a bit to really make a difference. Like a factor of five.

Viability in the fridge doesn't change much over time. I have a slurry that I have been doing cell counts on for a month and the viability has remained virtually the same for the whole time. The real wild card is knowing how much you are starting with. Depending on density and viability (neither of which can be determined without a microscope) the viable cell count can range from 100 million to 2 trillion cells per liter. A white labs vial is within 10% of 100 billion cells from counts I have done.

You should have no problem splitting the starter for two beers. Give is a little good swirl or a shake to homogenization it and you should be fine.

Here is some information on Mr. Malty:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/11/counting-cells.html
 
Yeast Calc and Mr. Malty show you three significant figures so you can see how things work, but in reality growth rates can vary quite a bit. You have to be off by quite a bit to really make a difference. Like a factor of five.
Agree completely. If it needed to be any more accurate than this, none of us would have consistent success fermenting anything.

Viability in the fridge doesn't change much over time. I have a slurry that I have been doing cell counts on for a month and the viability has remained virtually the same for the whole time.
Your results are interesting. Any thoughts on why your results disagree so wildly (apparently, anyway) with those that led to the models used by the calculators? Yours are interesting data points, but I'm curious how extensive the other set of experiments are. Otherwise it's hard to determine whether your findings are generally applicable or outliers for some reason.
 
I have a 10-gallon system. When I use liquid yeast I start with a 2L starter and then the next evening step it up to 4L. I get excellent results every time.

How do you step it up the next evening? Just add more wort? No, cooling and decanting?
 
Zeg,

You've got the right idea. It's good to be curious about validity of information that you hear. As I'm sure you know, there is quite a bit of misinformation all around, even on this forum. Unfortunately perfect data is a fantasy, and every experiment and conclusion has flaws when it comes down to practical application.

I've been tracking a total of nine slurries over the last month and collected 65 data points. The Mr. Malty calculation is really just a rough estimate.


From the Mr. Malty site:
The bad thing is that you can't tell how viable that yeast is, unless you have the equipment to properly test and count it. So this is where it gets a little bit like black magic.

You can read it all here:
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

I don't think there is anything special about my slurries that makes them not loose 1.5% viability per day that the Mr. Malty calculator shows. My weakest slurry was 8% viability a month ago and is 8% today. If the Mr. Malty slurry calculator was right I would not be able to find a single live cell in it. I'm just saying that the slurry viability an estimation at best, but perhaps just a swag. I would not be surprised to learn that Jamil came up with the equations that the estimate slurry viability by taking a pole of respected brewers, asking how old of a slurry they would use and then just made the calculator show zero percent viability at that time.

In my experience there are many much larger factors involved in viability than the amount of time it has been in the fridge.
 
Unfortunately perfect data is a fantasy, and every experiment and conclusion has flaws when it comes down to practical application.
Well, I'm not thinking about "perfect data," just trying to understand the limitations of your (and others') experiments.

I've been tracking a total of nine slurries over the last month and collected 65 data points.
Are they nine identical slurries, or are they different strains/conditions/something? How are you storing them?


I would not be surprised to learn that Jamil came up with the equations that the estimate slurry viability by taking a pole of respected brewers, asking how old of a slurry they would use and then just made the calculator show zero percent viability at that time.

In my experience there are many much larger factors involved in viability than the amount of time it has been in the fridge.
Given the rigor that Jamil has otherwise applied to understand yeast, I guess that would surprise me. While he also points out the importance of storage conditions and yeast strain as important, it'd seem out of character for a meaningless guess to be included. Given the acknowledged importance of factors other than age, it doesn't seem unlikely that various studies might disagree pretty widely without any of them being incorrect.
 
Are they nine identical slurries, or are they different strains/conditions/something? How are you storing them?
They are from 3 different batches of beer. Three pours each representitive of the top, middle and bottom of the cake. Stored in the fridge in mason jars like most people seem to do.


Given the acknowledged importance of factors other than age, it doesn't seem unlikely that various studies might disagree pretty widely without any of them being incorrect.
You got it. That's exactly my point: The viability by date varies widely because there are other much larger factors than date.
 
How do you step it up the next evening? Just add more wort? No, cooling and decanting?

Sorry, just now saw this (been away for a week doing other things - horrible on my part, I know...)

I usually make my starters in 1-gallon wine jugs. My Dad likes Gallo Burgundy in the big gallon jugs and gives me the empties. They're great for starters - especially for what I call 2-stage starters...

First night - 2 qt starter as normal - cool it and pitch into the gallon jug.

Second night - make another 2 qt starter, cool it and add it to the gallon jug. Sometimes I might have to decant just a little to get it all to fit - no need to leave a bunch of head space as not much krausen forms in starters.

I found that doing it this way yields a bit more yeast than just pitching an entire 4 qt starter.

Then on brew day you can decant and split just the yeast cake between the 2 fermenters. Sometimes I just shake the whole thing and split it.

Hope this helps.
 
Sometimes I might have to decant just a little to get it all to fit - no need to leave a bunch of head space as not much krausen forms in starters.

Just be careful if you're doing intermittent shaking---I've had a couple overflows due to foaming when I shake them even a little bit!

Incidentally, I've been doing starters in gallon jugs much like you describe. Mine are cider jugs, but they're probably the same as the wine jugs. For the high gravity lagers I've been doing, I have had to use two of them, though. My plan for the next one, starting from about 10 mL of rinsed yeast slurry, is to start with a 500 mL step, then do a 3L step, and then split that into two jugs and do 3L in each. This multistep business seems to help compensate for uncertainty in the number of cells you start with, at least if you trust the calculators.
 
Just be careful if you're doing intermittent shaking---I've had a couple overflows due to foaming when I shake them even a little bit!

Incidentally, I've been doing starters in gallon jugs much like you describe. Mine are cider jugs, but they're probably the same as the wine jugs. For the high gravity lagers I've been doing, I have had to use two of them, though. My plan for the next one, starting from about 10 mL of rinsed yeast slurry, is to start with a 500 mL step, then do a 3L step, and then split that into two jugs and do 3L in each. This multistep business seems to help compensate for uncertainty in the number of cells you start with, at least if you trust the calculators.

Are you brewing a 10-gallon batch? That's a lot of yeast...
 
No, only 5 gallons, but fairly high gravity lagers. The calculators are calling for ~600 billion cells, and that's what it takes to get the counts up there. It'd only be about a 50% overpitch if I started with a 100% viable commercial vial (100 billion cells, well more than I'll have), and it still should provide an adequate pitch down to 4-5 billion viable cells (probably slightly less than I have). For my best guess starting counts, it's a comfortible slight overpitch.
 
Alrighty, got my yeast and everything for the next two brews. 11/29/12 date on the Wy1056. I need about 300 billion for the Centennial Blonde. 2 steps of 1.5 liters each on a stir plate is calculated at 450 billion in 1.5 litres of wort. I'll pictch 500ml of the starter into each of the two fermenters for the CB, and step the last 500 ml up for the Bourbon Vanilla Porter starter. That one, I'll step it up to the appropriate size and let it ferment out completely on the last step, chill until brew day, decant, warm up, and pitch.

Sounds like a reasonable plan.
 
Anyone have a preference between dumping fresh wort onto what's already in the starter vs chilling, decanting off the spent wort and then adding fresh to just the "cake?"
 
I've only done one stepped starter, and I did the crash/decant approach. It wasn't because I thought very hard about the decision, I didn't have enough space in the jug to do anything else. It worked well this way, based on fermentation starting quickly, even in a lager at 48°F.

Even if I had a choice, I'd probably do it this way again. It avoids stressing the yeast by keeping them in contact with all the alcohol from the spent starter, and also keeps your starter wort gravity closer to the wort you made up. I'm not sure what effect, if any, dilution would have on the reproduction.
 
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